[PVE] scaling [Merged Thread]

Ducky

And that is because scaling is not linear. The devs have said that one of their goals was to have levels increase slower as our characters get higher in levels. There is one fundamental flaw with this, however. Since scaling is not linear, but instead is exponential, a 20 level increase at lower levels is far less brutal than a 10 level increase higher up the road.

To demonstrate this point I will use 2 nodes in my current gauntlet sub which both feature Black Panther. One version is level 451 and the other is level 462, so only 11 level difference


Level 451
Health: 59,798
Top 3 match damage: 313 278 244
Battleplan strength: 695 (1043 with 12+ ap)
RotP damage: 14,802

Level 462
Health: 65,089
Top 3 match damage: 341 303 265
Battleplan strength: 755 (1133 with 12+ ap)
RotP damage: 16,112

For only 11 levels of difference, that is a pretty sizable difference in strength. 10 champ levels to a 3* don't even come close to giving a fraction of that. This is why scaling needs to be dramatically scaled back. This is why leveling up your roster is like shooting yourself in the foot. This is what is driving people to stop playing this game. This isn't fun. This isn't challenging. This is what makes us put down our devices and stop playing.

We are 2 days into the running of the gauntlet and the second sub hasn't even filled once yet. This should be a HUGE red flag. And last I heard barely 500 people had even made it to the 3rd sub. Barely 500.

Wow. Just, wow.

digimon1208

this is my 1st post in MPQ since I have been playing for almost 2 and 1/2 yrs time.

whatever the game dev has in mind about the so-called *challenging* or experiment in *scaling*

all I wish to say is at the end of the day

ALL GAME ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FUN

and if the fun factor is to be eliminated due to an idea to pursue in new experiment by the dev team then
I am sure u know what is the end result is.

at the moment, I just felt that I am being PUNISHED IN GAME for having a expanded roster especially with the collection of 5* char
but that is just me speaking.

Ryudoz

I find it interesting that THIS is the issue that gets some "substantial" response from the devs/reds. It's also equally interesting what the actual responses have been. I'm dubious about the intentionality of recent difficulty scales, because those are knobs that the player base doesn't get to adjust, and how it comingles with issues regarding roster scaling in general.

Something like this was just waiting to happen. And it should have been expected given the jump in CW scaling as well. The message, once again seems to be clear.

We're supposed to lose.

Over and over until we spend more or play less. I find it difficult to swallow that the devs don't want the players to have an unfavorable experience, because even a cursory glance at the forums could tell them that the player base has been frustrated for some time. ISO shortage, cover shortage, pvp scaling, PVE scaling, critical boosts, cascade confirmation bias, broken characters, and that's just off the top of my head.

So yeah. Strange that now is when we get even a little bit of response. I don't expect much to come out of this save some clarification and maybe a bit of hubris. At least then it'll makeep whatever token gesture seem genuine for a change.

carrion_pigeons

Electrovirus wrote:

You need more subs to play in Gauntlet. 3 Subs for the whole spectrum of levels and power is not enough. Set the scaling to the way it was but with one or two more subs. Have the last subs for high level 4 star and 5 star rosters with rewards suited for them. You have stretched out and increased the levels and power the heroes can get but kept the number of subs the same, trying to cater beginners and top end rosters with thre subs has made the difficulty increase way to fast. I was looking forward to maybe finishing gauntlet for the first time but after about 2/3 the way through the first sub I was like enough of that Im gonna go play some PVP.

I really don't think the problem is the number of subs. After all, more subs just means more need for health packs and a longer grind. And the whole idea of "rewards suited for [high level rosters]" is a pipe dream - if they made the experience longer, it'd just mean more grinding for the same rewards, not more grinding for more rewards.

carrion_pigeons

digimon1208 wrote:

ALL GAME ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FUN

You aren't saying anything that hasn't been said a million times before, but let me let you in on a secret. Free-to-play games are not supposed to be fun. F2P game design sees fun as a resource to be expended for the purpose of "hooking" players, and then doling it out as sparingly as possible to keep them on the hook for as little expense as possible.

If you find that you're having a lot of fun in a F2P game, then you're "stealing" from the publisher, and the publisher actively doesn't want that. They go out of their way to make sure people don't enjoy themselves too much, because the entire premise of F2P is that "the game *could* be fun if I had more resources! I should go buy some!" That mentality is never reached if you're already actually having fun.

Felonius

Despite being late to the conversation, I'd still like to add my two-cents. I've been playing for a long time (SHIELD Resupply 652 days), and have a pretty good Roster:
https://mpq.gamependium.com/rosters/Felonious/

That being said, I'm finding this Gauntlet to be more difficult than previous runs of the Event. Surely my roster has grown more powerful over time, but The Gauntlet has as well, significantly. In the past, Wilderness Survival was mostly a cakewalk. Maybe the last node took some effort, but otherwise it was pretty easy for anyone with a good 3* Roster, which makes sense since the best reward there is a ~68% chance at a "useless" 2* cover.

Here are some of what I was seeing in Wilderness Survival:
Sim9, Easy: Konran 222, Empiricist 222, Don 222
Sim10, Normal: Demolisher 278, Carrier 278, Demolisher 278
Sim11, Normal: MNThor 306, Squirrel Girl 307, Hawkeye 306
Sim14, Normal (Final): DocOck 315, GreenGoblin 315, CSpider-Man 315

The level jump between Sim9 and 10 was unexpected. Sim14 seems inappropriate to me that I've got to beat a 5* character for a ~28% 3* draw chance and ~5% chance at a 4*/LegToken. That last node wiped 2/3 of my team, and my last guy had <1k health remaining at the end. And I was lucky, I had a good board and a couple serendipitous cascades throughout. It could very easily have been lost.

In Alpine Tactics, here are some examples:
Sim15, Normal: Empiricist 318, Subject 318, Criterion 318
Sim19, Hard: Daredevil 330, GSBW 330, Steve Rogers 330
Sim27, Hard: MThor 353, Rulk 353, UXCyclops 353
Sim28, Hard: Scarlet Witch 356, OML Wolvie 356, Iron Fist 356

Sim19 is the first time I ever recall seeing a Hard node in Alpine Tactics (those are usually saved for Global Domination, IIRC). The disconnect between difficulty and reward continues here. In order to beat these nodes, I'm having to use my best 4-5* characters, effectively eliminating MOST my roster since they just don't do enough damage to chew through 50-70k combined enemy hit points before their 15-25k health fails them.

Some nodes are even harder, when even my remaining, ace roster is removed from service. Sims 27-28 took away my two main players (OML and Rulk). I only beat Sim28 after several failed attempts, by finally resulting in the use of a "MegaWhale" team-up. I'm certain these lines-ups weren't tailored against me specifically, but maybe if you deny the use of certain characters, you could take those out of the level-scaling equation.

Here again, the rewards don't match up, when I have to fight with 4*+ and my best prize is a 3* cover. Sure, it'll give Beast an (insignificant) increase, but even boosted, he's not really been of assistance, this reward doesn't help, nor does it please.

I've only just started Global Domination, beat the first node, Sim29: a trio of L359 Simbiots at Normal rating. Sim30 puts me right back at Hard: She-Hulk 362, Scarlet Witch 362, UXCyclops 362. Haven't tried it yet. Will do, but I can see that at the patterned +3L/node increase, I should be seeing L377 foes by Sim35, and L407 by the final Sim44. Though I fear, if previous Gauntlets are any indication, there will be a level jump (similar to that between Sims9-10) around the time the nodes change from Hard to Deadly after the first Essential fork or so...

At least in Global Domination, if I manage to scratch and claw my way though, I'll get one single 4* cover (and a couple 3*s). It still seems a lot of work for too little reward.

I like challenge. I do. I'm not even really disliking what I've faced so far, if I got gains equal to the effort. I do really feel though, that this may be the first Gauntlet I won't be able to finish due to increased scaling and what I'm guessing will be a lot of powerful 5*s in my future.

Most my 5* are worthless, with one cover, and yet I'm concerned that their presence in my roster, especially on my front page, is what's killing me and throwing off the scaling I'm seeing. I feel that my unbalanced focus leveling of two of my characters (OML and Rulk) above the rest of (most) my roster has really hurt, too, despite the fact we were told we wouldn't get punished for doing just that.

I'm not sure how the game is scaling me, but let's look at my roster:
The average level of my combined 100-character roster is ~L151.
Just my 14x 2* is ~L140.
My 40x 3* average ~L179.
If we look at what should be my "viable" roster, then my 76x 3-5* average ~L166.
If we consider I'm in the 4* paradigm, then just those 31x toons average ~L133.
Add my 4-5* together (36x character) the average is ~L152.
And if we look at my one great L337 5*, and the four dead weight L255 5* that take up my roster's first page, and are my entire 5* roster by itself, we get an average ~L271.

Honestly, I fail to see how any of these average numbers lead to facing the high ranked foes I've faced so far, or will surely face throughout the remaining Gauntlet.

Anyway, I appreciate that the Devs are going to take a look at things. Thanks.

Final note: Don't know that it matters, but I've been playing straight through the main line, with intent to double-back for the Essential branches afterwards.

zodiac339

Should I actually add to this? I mean, one more vote that the scaling goes up too fast. All you get from stage one is a Moonstone token. The scaling should be trivial until the very last mission. Stage two should bring you up to normal. You want the end goal to be difficult? Fine, make that part difficult. Make it hard to get the Legendary cover. But make it worth fighting for. People fight hard and long for the other events, and they are worth the prizes. Three legendary covers for first place, plus three rares, and four Legendaries for a release. With 11 pages, I haven't seen if KingDreadNaught has chimed in on his experience. I doubt the Gauntlet is worth his time for one cover, or for other people who actually maxed out their Epic champions. And for those who it is worth doing, it's likely not possible. I won't make Stage 3, so I don't know what things will look like on the Venom nodes. I think I have him at 1/1/2 or 2/1/2? Level 94, powered to 168. And like has already been said by others, scaling at the end of Stage 1 exceeds the levels of the highest level empowered heroes.

Also, would you please have 2 star required missions in Stage 1? Please? He's featured, he has extra power, and then you don't even use that.

I never could understand why people in the past have said they liked Gauntlet. If it gave a person an impression that their roster is getting stronger, then I might like it, but scaling to nigh impossibility just drives in a sense of futility.

Xenoberyll

After the intense 7 day fight for Winter Soldier and the hard fought Civil War the difficulty combined with the stingy reward scheme of this gauntlet is almost like D3 wants us to put down the game and have a break. Hehe...as if they care

snooka

carrion pigeons wrote:

digimon1208 wrote:

ALL GAME ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FUN

You aren't saying anything that hasn't been said a million times before, but let me let you in on a secret. Free-to-play games are not supposed to be fun. F2P game design sees fun as a resource to be expended for the purpose of "hooking" players, and then doling it out as sparingly as possible to keep them on the hook for as little expense as possible.

If you find that you're having a lot of fun in a F2P game, then you're "stealing" from the publisher, and the publisher actively doesn't want that. They go out of their way to make sure people don't enjoy themselves too much, because the entire premise of F2P is that "the game *could* be fun if I had more resources! I should go buy some!" That mentality is never reached if you're already actually having fun.

this is not generally true and too simple.
Take "League of Legends" for example, one of the most successful F2P games.
Doesn't give you any advantage for real cash (only skins and other non relevant things).
Players pay millions of cash simply because they love to play it and it gives an "unlimited amount" fun

newton999

I play Loki / Hood / Patch since sim12.
But sim28 with OML / SW / IF lvl 340 is a dead end.

To be honest, it was fun to play "puzzle" quest and not match purple, create black with IF and punch for victory with IMHB.

But it's fun 1 or 2 fight...

Gmax101

There was a comment earlier on that asked what, for me, is the single most pertinent question regarding scaling in the Gauntlet

"Why does scaling even exist?" Surely a gauntlet with fixed levels and sensible rewards makes some kind of sense..

Sub 1 has rewards that cap at a 2* plus a token for the vault. (which might get them a lucky 3*/4*)

So why, in all that is good and holy should the challenges in that sub require anything more than an average 2* roster. This should be a sub that lets ALL players stretch that 2* star roster. The final levels should be at appoint where 2* star roster with un-championed 2*, but a couple of key characters approaching max level should be able to clear... and even grind for the rewards. In that scenario a random 4* at level 70 might actually be of benefit with higher match damage etc,

and the big guns... well they get to have a little fun as they fly through to open up Sub 2....

Rewards can be: Standard tokens, 70, 100 iso, boosts etc maybe some 250/500 on the highest nodes, even 25-50 HP towards roster slots. But no CP. This isn't the place for them.

Sub 2 gives rewards up to 3* plus tokens...

So here the name of the game is an average 3* roster should be able to clear/grind. With final levels featuring choice 4* at lower levels. So the 2* who unlocks it can work towards clearing it, knowing that each new node they clear is a step in the right direction, and opens them up to the slightly better iso rewards. Again, the big boys get to fly through and stretch the legs of their mid-tier roster... even have a some more actual FUN.

Rewards: 100/250/500 ISO maybe a couple of 1,000 on the highest/essential levels, odd standard tokens, 50-100 HP and start seeing CP... throw some Event Tokens as node rewards too

Sub 3 is all about champ 3* and 4* rosters.

A player with a championed 3 star roster, should, with favourable boosts be able to clear this sub, and earn the 4* cover. The 3* transitioner who manages to unlock the sub gets to earn a few higher quality rewards... but will always struggle to get much past the first spur. Getting in to this Sub should be something to work towards, dare I say an achievement for the player. It certainly felt like it when I first cracked in to it. Here the big boys get to test out all those 4*/3* Champ combos they wanted to try. Sure they can just power through with their high powered 5*, and that is ok.

Rewards: 250/500/1000 ISO, HP, Critical Boosts (because everyone loves them ), CP and Event Tokens

This is sort of what I originally thought the Gauntlet was... but the inclusion of scaling just makes no sense in that light.

So what about the challenge for the Big Guys, the Champ'd 4*/5* rosters. They need a separate Sub. The hardcore mother-Tinykitty Sub, the "only enter if you have the stones" Sub. The "Go Big or Go Home" sub. This should be the ultimate challenge in PVE MPQ... the most horrendous combinations designed to test the limits of championed 4* and make OML go crying to Jean Grey that the big boys stole his toys. But give those brave soles the rewards for going in: Legendary Tokens, chunks of ISO (2000+)

Make it so that every player looks at the Sub and wants to get in there... wants to say they earnt the right to get the best rewards in the game. Yes this will widen the gap between the whales and the F2P players in the short term... but it will give everyone something to aim for. A true sense of accomplishment in a game that should not always be a walk in the park...


Now, I would like to see a Gauntlet-esque event made up of the first 3 subs running frequently, with different essentials and specific cover rewards. Give players the chance to earn their roster development.

Create three modes that run simutaneously....

True PVE - Progression only. Running a cycle of Gauntlet 2.0s to give true PVE players something to get their teeth in to, and maybe Boss Events to get Alliances excited. 4 week cycle:

Competitive PVE - the current event schedule... with progression and placement. With Scaling to try and balance between different roster strengths... this would also be where new characters would launch etc

PVP - As is (I would prefer leagues/tiers, but only one radical change per post )

With the legendary 4th Sub only showing up on occasion... something to get players fired up about. Get them talking about how to beat the latest nightmare...

Posting in Suggestions too

Gmax101

Love the idea of no scaling... posted my thoughts in the other thread... and in the suggestions forum..

Scaling in PVE in general, but Gauntlet in particular makes little sense...

Polares

Yeah man, it looks like Devs don't know how their game works, which is something that I don't think I have ever seen in any other game. I said the same thing in the "Get Gauntlet Data" thread but I will say it here too.

So, you are lucky an get some 5s, but if you put iso into them you are SERIOUSLY PENALIZED in PvE !!!! You can just chose between 3-5 5s (if you managed to pull covers for all of them) and they don't have that much synergy together, most of the time you need 4s and 3s, but your enemies scale even more than you!!! So, what is the advantage of leveling your 5s ?!?!?!?

NONE AT ALL!

And of course you can't use 4s or 3s because they get insta-killed!!!

They NEED to fix this, this is outrageous!!!

And until they fix this I will just continue leveling OML for PvP and that's it. Or just stop playing because this is so stupid that it hurts, they still think that even after you get to the endgame, your life should be even harder than before so you keep buying more health packs, more new chars, etc.

smoq84

The situation from my point of view: they changed the best (and only true) PvE event into the worst one, unplayable, not worth the effort...

El Satanno

I'm in a very similar boat as OJSP right above there.

From the very first time Gauntlet ran, it immediately became my favorite event in this game. Just me and my roster against a tower to try my damnedest to defeat. Last time it ran, I was very proud to announce to everyone in my alliance that I managed to beat the whole thing without either Winfinite or Super Whales. It was hard but it felt fair, and the reward at the end was worth it. That was when I had a very deep 3* roster and the beginnings of a 4* roster.

Today, I have the entire top-tier 4* lineup championed and almost have a proper 5* team ready for action. Setting aside the horrific problems that the entire 5* tier creates for the game, this event has not been fun. At all. I think it was just after #11 that every enemy gained about 200 levels. Granted, not too difficult for my team but an ill omen. By the time I got to the end of sub 1 every enemy had matched or passed every non-boosted 4* character on my roster. I'm getting started on sub 3 now but it has long since been not a Gauntlet, but a game of Logan/Cyke on Tour. Those nodes with Wolverine or Cyke locked out...not cool.

This would be great if every one of these incredibly difficult matches paid out a handsome prize, but no. Sub 3 doesn't even have a 3* reward until halfway through! I don't know that I'll finish this one. Whether out of boredom or frustration I can't say yet. What I can say is: Do not like.

Born2DieNPvP

Can I suggest just testing one event with scaling cranked down severely? You've tried the opposite multiple times in the 2 plus years I've played and it never, ever has positive results. Start at the bottom and increase each event by a sane amount until a happy median is found. You should have all the data you could ever need from super scaling. Time to scrape the data from other end.

OneLastGambit

Pylgrim wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

John Wayne74 wrote:

Curious question from someone who has been out of the networking circle for many years.

With the multi time slots and multiple events because of the total numbers of players capped per event, could the servers handle three sets of that as opposed to the one set we currently have?

I love the idea, truly. Just curious if it could actually be accomplished. I have pondered if that very issue is the reason we still don't have 4* pvp events. Too many things running concurrently?

If things weren't competitive, that it in TRUE PVE events, it wouldn't matter how few people were in a pool.

PVP needs a certain minimum population to make it work, but if that became a problem, provide each pool with a min pop of bots. Like stocking a pond. Seed teams, next step.

Yep. And a progression-based reward scheme would also remove harsh timing restrictions and "optimal" grinds, meaning that you'd need not to worry about joining a bracket that fits your daily schedule.[/quoteCAP]

progression based system would also eliminate cheeky bracket snipers (like me) Which shows what a good idea it is that it means I would have to work harder for my rewards and I STILL support this whole idea Because it improves the game in general

__Adam

Sub 1, stimulation 12 and the enemies are higher than all but 2 if my BOOSTED roster. For a 2 star reward.

I have no usable 4/5 star characters, but almost all 3 star championed.

That is literally the opposite of progression.

Crowl

Cthulhu wrote:

Lots of stuff to read! We are reviewing this as well and have heard it's way too difficult. Will update when and if we can take care of anything to make it less difficult. I haven't read all the comments yet, but will review each page and discuss tomorrow.

Cthulhu

Novel suggestion, scale it to the level of the rewards being offered. Assuming that you won't up the rewards to the difficulty that means:

Easy sub, offers a 2* reward, levels should not exceed 144.
Medium sub, offers a 3* reward, should not exceed 266.
Hard sub, offers a 4* reward, should not exceed 370.

You could even limit the first sub to 3* or lower, 2nd to 4* or lower and 3rd to 5* or lower.

This will result in those with a 5* roster having an easy time of it and guess what, that isn't a bad thing as most games do not punish you for progressing nowadays.

Crowl

Pylgrim wrote:

Yep. And a progression-based reward scheme would also remove harsh timing restrictions and "optimal" grinds, meaning that you'd need not to worry about joining a bracket that fits your daily schedule.

One problem with a progression-based system is we have that in the Gauntlet and they think that the chance of everyone getting the top reward means that they have to be extra stingy with those rewards.