Unusable covers for characters at less than 13 covers

HxiiiK

Jaedenkaal wrote:

Hulkbuster, my highest covered 4* at 5/2/5. 3 out of my last 4 token draws are HB red and blue. So much sadface

I am not consoled by the extra 3000 iso

What? Why not? Don't you know that's 1 WHOLE LEVEL

LuciferianX

Not past 235 or so it ain't.

Juuuust sayin'.

If he could have just applied the unusable cover to the card itself and level it up, he wouldn't be having this problem. Now if he's already 250, hey, sometimes that's how it goes, but odds are good the people this would benefit the most don't have a ton of ISO into characters that aren't champion eligible.

Still haven't heard from the devs/Dave/etc. Still want a response.

Dayv

LuciferianX wrote:

Not past 235 or so it ain't.

Juuuust sayin'.

If he could have just applied the unusable cover to the card itself and level it up, he wouldn't be having this problem. Now if he's already 250, hey, sometimes that's how it goes, but odds are good the people this would benefit the most don't have a ton of ISO into characters that aren't champion eligible.

Still haven't heard from the devs/Dave/etc. Still want a response.

Leveling a non-champed character with a wasted cover is of little value, and as you said it could itself be locked out if the character is already at their cap. The unusable cover should raise another power instead, thus increasing the cap and giving the player an outlet for ISO or a desire to go earn/buy more ISO.

Also, using a cover to increase a single level lessens the distinction of champing a character. Pre-transition covers increase powers, post-champ covers increase levels.

If you draw a 14th cover for a character already at 13, you have time to gain ISO and champion them. If you draw an unusable cover for a character who needs a different color to progress, you have only disappointment.

LuciferianX

However.

And this is where there's two camps, and I want to address your point because it's absolutely valid. There's a key difference I want to underline:

Your point was that pre-champ is power, post champ is levels. The difference is that pre-champ you're still building up to Champion status, so getting a cover and adding a level gets you [thatmuchcloser] to being champ eligible. However, if you're at 13, and not Champion, then "adding a level" doesn't work. In other words, while your idea is sound, it only applies for people who have 5 and not 13, whereas my proposal works for all people, all the time, unless they're at the cap.

The second reason is that I don't think we're ever going to get a reasonably priced* version of cover swap, i.e., something someone who is a fremium player (as I am; I've spent money, sometimes too much, but I have weened myself off of that for the most part) can really make use of, because it begs the question, if I'm at 5/2/5, and I get my nth cover for a maxed power, and converting it costs, what, 1,000 HP and 10 CP (or... whatever) do I want to spend the CP on that cover, for that character? If Totally Awesome Hulk is at 11 covers (3/3/5) and you get a sixth Hot Dog Stand, does anyone hear you scream?

He's [hyperbole] easily not only the worst four star, he's one of the worst characters in the meta. I think all covers for him are a waste, but 1,000 ISO does me no good, not really, so let me sink a level in him and move on.

So my logic is:

1) Adding a level when you hit the power cap but not the level cap is almost always useful

2) Cover Swap is not always useful, particularly at the 13 cover level

3) If I'm trying to sell cover packs (and I am, metaphorically speaking) I'm more likely to allow adding one level because this incentivizes people to buy packs, because the odds of them having anything 3* and up go to waste is much lower. This is good for my business, and good for the players, because it keeps them in my environment, which I want

4) Cover swap is outside of the bounding box of the meta, and while I think [player] it's a good idea, I doubt it would be implemented to the point where it was usable unless we have a significant paradigm shift in character building. It is not nearly as incentivizing as adding a level (note: not saying it isn't, saying that if you compare the two, "I can use almost everything" vs. "I can't really use much" you see a major difference).

5) The only downside I've contemplated to my original plan is that people can now do "speed builds" of two stars, so I would understand if they only allowed the cover add on a 3 star or up, which is a much slower progression and really where the pain starts when you can't apply the cover.

Crowl

LuciferianX wrote:

So my logic is:

1) Adding a level when you hit the power cap but not the level cap is almost always useful

2) Cover Swap is not always useful, particularly at the 13 cover level

While these two statements are technically true, the reality is that when the second one is useful, it is vastly more useful than effectively getting a bit more iso from selling a card at the expense of reducing the flexibility of that iso.

LuciferianX

You haven't lost the flexibility of that ISO, you can still sell your 4 star cover (as I've proposed) for 1k. I'm still lost to the logic that you're using here. How many times are you going to need to cover swap before the build is where you want it for use? How many of the characters in question are you going to use full time? I respect that you disagree, but I'm not seeing the logic of the argument. In 5 covers, assuming a 13 cover character, at some point you'll have the build you want, and then be right back where you started. As I propose it, those five covers get you closer to champion, then it doesn't matter what your build is. Is there still a need for a cover swap? Yes. But if I'm being given the option between one or the other (in this hypothetical discussion) I'll take 3k ISO over 1k ISO, even if it's less flexible.

auralgami

I just spent a week on the Hulk event and earned the 25 CP.

For my trouble, I got the 6th purple cover for my 5/2/0 Teen Jean. I last saw a Jean cover a couple of months ago.

This means I ground on a 7 day event for....1000 iso? There is no way I can get 6 more Jean covers in 14 days.

This is insane. I would have been better off not playing at all. What does this say about this game? If I have to ask that question, why should I continue instead of doing something else?

I already struggle with a game with limited rewards and slooooow progress. I feel this mechanic, as well as some well known others, amount to punishing the player for progressing. Why should I continue to subject myself to that?

firethorne

Yeah, I just had a similar situation on the titan match. My Cyclops is only 3/3/2, and Hulkbuster is no slouch on even footing, let alone with a 100 level advantage.

Anyway, 12 or so health packs later, I finally get lucky enough to knock out HB. Well, that was apparently all the luck this blasted game would allow, giving a 6th cover for my 5/5/2 invisible woman. As if Baglady wasn't bad enough, the extra twisting of the knife, being an unusable Baglady when I'm one away from finishing her, and that selling the cover won't even raise her a single **** level, is maddening.

SnowcaTT

If CS would promise to always merge your characters after you champ the first copy, I would promise to always roster a 2nd copy and not complain about this anymore.

I mean...D3 should like that solution, it means giving players an option that -also- might earn D3 some revenue (roster slots). It also means no extra coding on the D3 side, even though it seems their code (which already allows infinite free re-specs of champions) should already be able to support this without much work....

Crowl

LuciferianX wrote:

You haven't lost the flexibility of that ISO, you can still sell your 4 star cover (as I've proposed) for 1k. I'm still lost to the logic that you're using here. How many times are you going to need to cover swap before the build is where you want it for use? How many of the characters in question are you going to use full time? I respect that you disagree, but I'm not seeing the logic of the argument. In 5 covers, assuming a 13 cover character, at some point you'll have the build you want, and then be right back where you started. As I propose it, those five covers get you closer to champion, then it doesn't matter what your build is. Is there still a need for a cover swap? Yes. But if I'm being given the option between one or the other (in this hypothetical discussion) I'll take 3k ISO over 1k ISO, even if it's less flexible.

If you use it as a level up you have lost the flexibility because you only get the increased benefit if it is used on a specific character.

As far as the amount of times you would benefit from cover swapping, you are clearly far luckier than many people if you have not been stuck in a cycle of continually getting the wrong colour for a 5/5/x character, I know I had to discard at least 10 4* Thor covers before I finally managed to get a 13th and those extra covers would have been vastly more valuable for the character in the long run than some extra pre-champion levels on a character, it is not like scaling would allow you to use the incomplete character that much as it is.

Crowl

SnowcaTT wrote:

If CS would promise to always merge your characters after you champ the first copy, I would promise to always roster a 2nd copy and not complain about this anymore.

I mean...D3 should like that solution, it means giving players an option that -also- might earn D3 some revenue (roster slots). It also means no extra coding on the D3 side, even though it seems their code (which already allows infinite free re-specs of champions) should already be able to support this without much work....

They should let people pay the champion fee early and get the respec part right away.

LuciferianX

Crowl wrote:

LuciferianX wrote:

You haven't lost the flexibility of that ISO, you can still sell your 4 star cover (as I've proposed) for 1k. I'm still lost to the logic that you're using here. How many times are you going to need to cover swap before the build is where you want it for use? How many of the characters in question are you going to use full time? I respect that you disagree, but I'm not seeing the logic of the argument. In 5 covers, assuming a 13 cover character, at some point you'll have the build you want, and then be right back where you started. As I propose it, those five covers get you closer to champion, then it doesn't matter what your build is. Is there still a need for a cover swap? Yes. But if I'm being given the option between one or the other (in this hypothetical discussion) I'll take 3k ISO over 1k ISO, even if it's less flexible.

If you use it as a level up you have lost the flexibility because you only get the increased benefit if it is used on a specific character.

As far as the amount of times you would benefit from cover swapping, you are clearly far luckier than many people if you have not been stuck in a cycle of continually getting the wrong colour for a 5/5/x character, I know I had to discard at least 10 4* Thor covers before I finally managed to get a 13th and those extra covers would have been vastly more valuable for the character in the long run than some extra pre-champion levels on a character, it is not like scaling would allow you to use the incomplete character that much as it is.

I have been in that loop (that's what started all of this, my endless series of Gamma Siphons and Venom Blasts). And I understand your point, but even at 5/n./5, the classic dilemma, or any 5/n/X build, at most you'd need 8 in a worst case scenario, and with the odds falling the way they do for me, that would be no more than 2, at worst, 3 covers before they go back to being 1,000 ISO.

I think that a solution proposed above would be a good balance -- champion your character at any time, now you can respec and covers provide levels, problem solved. I also think this is unlikely, but it would be a strong vip style perk. Now I can move the covers I have, and the covers I get aren't lost.

Seems "too good" in terms of player benefit, but it would certainly solve the problem.

DFiPL

We need something for sure. It's well and good to say "wait two weeks to champion a 2* to extend the use of the otherwise-unusable 3* cover by another two weeks," but that's not a game you can play with, say, a daily resupply cover that drops.

Or a duplicate cover from an LT for a 4* who isn't max covered. My Professor X has a path to 5/5/0 in the next however-long - I have two blue covers coming one way or another I know I can use - but I've pulled two purple covers in the last month from LT's, and with no clear way to get a yellow anytime soon other than prayers to RNGesus, the purple cover currently in the queue is going to be ISO fodder.

It sucks. I don't get LT's often enough to be okay with getting a duplicate of a max-cover power when I only have 5 4* powers maxed right now. There are over 100 other covers I could have pulled and found useful, but instead I got that one. Twice.

It hurts and it sucks and it makes me angry.

shartattack

Here's a way to get them more money and still be fair. I have black panther at 5 yellow. I got another yellow. Let me roster the extra in a new roster spot and then apply that cover after he is championed. Given its 1000 hp for a roster spot, I would still pay up.

LuciferianX

So the two proposals on the table are:

* Champion at any time; you could have a 1 cover Wasp and drop the 12,500 to Champion her. Not that I think that's a super useful commitment of resources, but that's the proposal.

* "Character Deconstruction," which has gone by many variants but that's what we'll call it. You get a spare Black Panther and you're 133 @ 5/3/5, you create a new Black Panther in a new roster slot. When you champion your correct BP, you have two choices on the bar: "Sell for 500 ISO" or "Deconstruct." WARNING: DECONSTRUCTED COVERS DO NOT RETURN ANY ISO-8. DECONSTRUCT? Y/N

Of those, I'm fine with either, but strongly (STRONGLY) prefer Champion. Someone should make a poll.

donietsche

Deconstruction would be the best option in my opinion.

Or maybe it could be one of the solutions (it could be paired with the possibility to insta-champion the characters), especially for players who have already recruited the extra covers in the past, while waiting for a change of some sort that could make those items usable in a way or another.

It would also lead to a more flexible approach to the micro-management part of the game.

You could decide to prioritize a 4* over a 5* (or the other way around) depending on the number of available (pending) covers at any given moment.

You can take care of the other character at a later stage, when you have the iso to champ it (using the covers stored in the duplicate character).

If a fee or a cost is deemed necessary to allow deconstruction, that could come in the form of destruction of the roster slot used for the duplicate character (that's up to 1k hp for developed rosters; more than enough for those who were already struck by bad luck... ).

LuciferianX

I got to "destruction of the roster slot" and had to take a breath before I replied. No, you cannot take away my 1,000 HP roster slot. That's insane.

That is all.

donietsche

LuciferianX wrote:

I got to "destruction of the roster slot" and had to take a breath before I replied. No, you cannot take away my 1,000 HP roster slot. That's insane.

That is all.

In that scenario, you could always a) simply sell the character; b) therefore, not get the covers that you invested/stored and (c) be able to keep the roster slot.

Of course everyone would love this option to be entirely free, but let's assume that this will not be the case (should the feature ever be introduced): 1k hp is the "worst case scenario" (=the highest cost we could think of), should a fee be required to deconstruct.

donietsche

by the way, it's worth noticing that deconstruction would not be some form of compensation (you don't receive anything more - or different - than what you've won in-game), and not even a way to accelerate progression (more precisely, to avoid its slowdown because of bad luck): it would only be a way to mitigate the frustration of pulling useless covers and/or of having them stored in your roster (you will be able to use them only when you will finally champ the character).

What I want to say here is that I really don't see a single reason to deny us players such a basic (and easy to implement) option.

Crowl

donietsche wrote:

In that scenario, you could always a) simply sell the character; b) therefore, not get the covers that you invested/stored and (c) be able to keep the roster slot.

Of course everyone would love this option to be entirely free, but let's assume that this will not be the case (should the feature ever be introduced): 1k hp is the "worst case scenario" (=the highest cost we could think of), should a fee be required to deconstruct.

It is not a worst case scenario it is an utterly ludicrous one that harshly punishes people who have already been punished by RNG in the first place.