On Galactus run 1 (Game feel vs Ultron)

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  • nwman
    nwman Posts: 331 Mover and Shaker
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    Game feel?

    Not sure


    Mouth feel? Dry, gagging, unpalatable. Itchy?

    Something along those lines. And I'm one of the ones this event was catered for apparently.
  • Jasonzakibe
    Jasonzakibe Posts: 89 Match Maker
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    IceIX wrote:
    What this also meant is that the higher end Alliances would chew through the entire Event in about 12 hours and let it kinda sit for 3 days.

    You gave compensation because so few alliances actually beat this. It was like two alliances. And they had to play non stop without missing a single reset. What universe are you living in? I honestly hope even the whitest of knights won't forgive you for this blatant lie.
    IceIX wrote:
    You're supposed to lose.

    It pains my soul that you have a job involving video games. I honestly hope you get fired for this comment, and I used to respect you a lot. Really, really dumb thing to say about a video game. I mean absolutely clueless.
    IceIX wrote:

    You're supposed to lose your Health Packs on Galactus

    Now this just makes me sick. We're supposed to lose health packs? In video games, you're supposed to lose when you mess up. Not as part of the game plan. How do you not know this? Real question, and I expect a real answer. Design a real game. You have clearly given up. Give some real answers or quit.
  • TLCstormz
    TLCstormz Posts: 1,668
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    Besides the event being flawed in NUMEROUS ways, their responses to all of our outcrying has been both hilarious AND despicable...............
  • kensterr
    kensterr Posts: 1,277 Chairperson of the Boards
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    colwag wrote:
    And people wonder why he took so long to respond when he's met with responses like this...

    He made his choice to ignore, save face and lie, and he can live with it. If I'm wrong he can come in and say it, make an honest post and really explain what happened. im open and understanding... but not when I hear spin and lies. Him pretending not to know what the poster who mentioned bad rewards was talking about? and then getting called out and leaving the topic?

    Loud and clear.

    Yeah, there was absolutely nothing he could say that'd convince you it was anything other then spin and lies other then "Oh woe is me, for we have sinned, please spare us with your kind mercy."

    There is nothing that he could (reasonably) do that'd quell this rage.

    So the best thing to do would probably be to stay mostly out of it.
    Yes he can. Change the game mechanics, offer better token odds, and compensation for the server issues. Oh wait! It's the weekend and nobody works, and those who are working are rubbing shoulders with celebrities and cosplayers in NYCC. If this was a USA-only game I would understand. But this is an international released game and cannot just be based on USA time.
  • Stax the Foyer
    Stax the Foyer Posts: 941 Critical Contributor
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    IceIX wrote:
    If things are really going to go poorly, we'll look at doing refresh timer changes and the like that we can do server-side as a quicker band aid style fix for run 1.

    The solution to a fight that is not fun should not be allow us to do more of the thing that is not fun.

    Morale will not improve with additional beatings.
  • IceIX wrote:
    If things are really going to go poorly, we'll look at doing refresh timer changes and the like that we can do server-side as a quicker band aid style fix for run 1.

    The solution to a fight that is not fun should not be allow us to do more of the thing that is not fun.

    Morale will not improve with additional beatings.

    But... the beatings will continue until morale improves. icon_e_sad.gif
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
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    IceIX wrote:
    It's similar in structure to Ultron, just refined and more up front about how everything works.
    I wonder where we got the idea that Galactus would be beatable...
  • firethorne
    firethorne Posts: 1,505 Chairperson of the Boards
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    IceIX wrote:
    Care to expand on that? The rewards are 3 4* covers and 95% of the players will not even get the first one, quite a few tokens with 0.1% chance at desirable covers through both progressions and nodes, and various other smaller rewards. It's pretty on for a boss battle in comparison to prior rewards and completely out of line for a thank you anniversary event, plus the Legendary token which 99% of players won't attain which wasn't there before.

    Fixed
  • Omega Red
    Omega Red Posts: 366 Mover and Shaker
    edited October 2015
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    IceIX wrote:
    Hey all,

    Wanted to share a few things about how Galactus works and what we're expecting versus what we're seeing.

    To start, it seems like a lot of people are on a basic disconnect here, looking at the boss battle similar to how Ultron ran in terms of how things work. Meaning that Ultron should be going down pretty regularly. He's powerful, but his real power lies in the fact that killing his body doesn't stop him. You need to crush every one of his drones and main bodies to win. So winning rounds is a pretty regular occurrence. Game-wise, what this means is that players won fairly easily against Ultron and took their lumps against the drones. The stopping timer there was health packs based on when the drones finally wore you down. What this also meant is that the higher end Alliances would chew through the entire Event in about 12 hours and let it kinda sit for 3 days.

    Galactus is different. The "minion" fights against the villains are relatively simple. They're there as minor hazards but relatively easily winnable. Galactus on the other hand is a massive threat. He's not going to be stopped by gnats. Iron Fist punching him in the toe isn't very painful. So he gets bored and swats them away. In game terms, this means that players are going to be beaten. Winning a round against Galactus is an achievement. You're supposed to lose. Every time you do, you're still chipping away at his life. It's an exercise in damage in aggregate. Over the 3.5 days, hitting him over and over to finally bring down the big bad is somewhat slow, but certainly effective.

    Overall, most of the higher end Alliances are in Round 6 or knocking on the door to Round 7. Which is actually slightly faster than we were expecting people to get just based on the math. So everyone's doing pretty darned well in terms of progression. There are some teams rockin' the Winfinite, other teams that are pushing through with some interesting strategies (who woulda thought OBW would be a rock star against Galactus?). Not many Alliances are getting anywhere near full clears. Which is actually intended. You're supposed to lose your Health Packs on Galactus, rather than against the minions like on Ultron. It's also why we changed up the play method for this round too so that it's not just a flip flop between Ultron and minions till you win. There's a set number of times you can hit Galactus before you need to take a break to let minions refresh. That break means that you have plenty of times for Galactus drained Packs to refresh while you can go in and get some Black Vortex in. Or play Simulator (up soon). Or get your Devil Dino on when that starts up. It's a different design than the rush of Ultron where that was pretty much all players did while it was open.

    Long story short, you all are doing really well against Galactus. Yes, the gameplay is different. I'm sure most of you aren't used to going into a battle with the idea that you may well lose. But given that you're still pulling out wins with pretty strong regularity, I don't see any reason this wouldn't continue into Rounds 7 and 8, and on to Cyclops awesomeness.

    At the outset, going into the boss battle, you're looking at winning like normal. After all, it works elsewhere in the game, and it worked against Ultron. So suddenly getting rocked by Galactus is a shock. Keep at it. If things are really going to go poorly, we'll look at doing refresh timer changes and the like that we can do server-side as a quicker band aid style fix for run 1. After that, we'll figure out what we want to do for difficulty on run 2 (and any other runs that we do in the future, of course).



    I understand your position. Your arguments are well presented and logical from your perspective. You are giving away a four star so it's supposed to be difficult. When you run a pve release you give away all three covers only to the top ten out of a bracket of 1,000 players. That's a one percent of participants that are meant to get all three covers. It's a pretty exclusive and elite group. Translated to alliance game that means that only one for every hundred alliances should be able to complete this event and grab the three covers. I have no idea of how many alliances play but my guess is that the event is meant to have only five to ten alliances completing it. Maybe ten to twenty if you're feeling VERY generous. Since the event is non-competitive, these metrics mandate the event design to be beyond "deadly" difficult.

    Now, I don't have a problem with such difficulty on principle but I do have a problem with the design and the way it's implemented. This boss fight resembles a lot the 4-star DPDQ in that success is merely a matter of starting board and luck. "Find a way to win in three turns or less". This goes against the philosophy you have been designing your game for quite a while now. "No more cheap abilities, buff health for everybody, games are meant to last longer". This boss fight goes against that philosophy. It demands for a cheesy solution like that Ragnarok/GSBW deadly combo from the game's precambrian.

    The saddest thing is that, this only does a great disservice to your own work. During this last year you have designed some really cool and fun characters: X-force, Mystique, Grocket, Thora, Cage, Kamala, IF, Professor X, SW, HB, Ant-man, Thing, Jean, Iceman, etc. All of them good and fun to play with and all of them pretty much useless and unable to shine because the endgame in boss fight demands to win in two turns or less.

    We are supposed to lose. Fine, but why are we supposed to lose in three turns? Give Galactus 1,000,000 health and a strong ap drain and a moderate damage-dealing passives. Give the players at least the chance to put together a team and die fighting. I would rather die after a ten minute match than the travesty we currently have at less than one minute. There is no gameplay to enjoy.

    Here's my problem with your post: It focuses strictly on engagement and completion metrics but not on user experience. The user experience is terrible. You could have arrived to the same completion results with a much, much, MUCH more pleasant user experience. I don't give a damn if I only win one or two covers instead of three, I want to have fun using the roster I have built during these two years, I want ACTUAL gameplay. Watching a bot spamming tiles and clearing the board in three turns is no gameplay.
  • Teddybabes
    Teddybabes Posts: 66 Match Maker
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    This anniversary is like getting a birthday cake. But I have to pay for it, and there is no presents.


    Thanks for nothing, or zero point one to be exact, I am now packing my bag. One more slap in my face and I am gone.

    (600$ customer)
  • The problem with these arguments is that the players basically say, 'this fight sucks, it hurts when I play it' and D3 is saying, 'but you're still doing it!' While it sure doesn't look like how Galactus can possibly be anybody's idea of fun, I can't say for sure if there isn't this silent majority of guys that contributes to MPQ's bottom line while being totally satisfied at not getting further than round 4. There's also no way to tell if all the guys complaining the event won't suddenly sing praises for how awesome D3 is if D3 says something like, 'Okay guys that turned out to be a bit harder than we thought so here's some free tokens'. After all, the same thing roughly happened in the Ultron event.

    I also notice that in a lot of games in general there's this bizarre reaction where if the game smacks you hard enough some people might feel compelled to spend a lot of money to try to show the game who's the boss, and there are definitely some posters I've seen that sort of fits this pattern. I'm looking up at Thinkgaming.com and it shows a huge spike recently most likely due to this event: https://thinkgaming.com/app-sales-data/ ... zle-quest/. Since D3 has repeatedly said this site is totally unreliable compared to their stats when it shows MPQ is doing poorly, I'm pretty sure there's no way this site would have any incentive to make MPQ look better than it is.

    While correlation is not causation, if the real revenue numbers indeed look like this graph I can easily see someone come to the conclusion of 'we clearly didn't smack the players hard enough for their money in the past.' For all I know, this may be a very sound business strategy. I'm sure there are perfectly other valid reasons why MPQ's revenue went up recently but it's just awfully hard to convince the company that they're wrong when they're having really good success financially. Things will have to get worse (huge drop in revenue) before the players can possibly convince D3 that they screwed up, and it's even possible that maybe D3 didn't screw up.
  • Bryan Lambert
    Bryan Lambert Posts: 234 Tile Toppler
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    Here's the thing.

    If you take at face value the idea that Galactus was meant to beat you, and that the point of the event is to do as much damage as you can before he kills you, then there's one huge gaping flaw in this scheme.

    There is a penalty that extends beyond this mode for losing. You're deliberately making the players lose, which means those characters are unavailable for PvP, or other PvE's. Bringing them back uses up health packs, which are a game-wide resource.

    If characters killed by Galactus didn't need to be revived or heal - if the "we're deliberately killing you to further a story" game mode were in isolation from the rest of the game, I'd be fine with it. But it's not. It's not that people don't like losing, or aren't used to losing. It's that your game punishes the player for losing, and your game mode makes it virtually impossible for players to play it and not be punished. Since the only way to avoid that punishment is to spend real money on the in-game resources that negate it, well, we're left with either a huge design blind spot or a deliberate attempt to wring cash out of players.
  • the spike is in direct relation to the HP sale and anniversary hype, obviously, since ATM even money wont save you from the galactus
  • and stop responding to this horrible post as if he's being honest about the way this is supposed to work. If he IS being honest, which he is not, than its WAY worse that they intended to troll and malice us through what is supposed to be a happy celebration

    this is NOT what was intended. This is just face saving spin at its most glorious
  • Skygazing
    Skygazing Posts: 165 Tile Toppler
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    Echoing what other people are saying. This is complete and utter garbage Ice and you know it.

    Comparing Galactus to Ultron, here's a point that hasn't been brought up either. If by design we are supposed to lose, then why in the world are there event tokens in the main node and not in the essentials? When Ultron ran there was always a token in two of them, which at least gave you a shot at winning some each round. Now you stick them in a node that you yourself claim we aren't supposed to clear. And what do we get for completing essentials this time around? Standard tokens. Not even your contemptible anniversary tokens, but standard tokens.

    I wouldn't even be bothered by it if round 4 was the norm. I actually mentioned to my alliance that breezing through trivial essentials was the only part of the event I was enjoying. I wouldn't expect much reward for those, but for a streak of Teisatsus followed by a 395 Gorgon? I expect a little more than a standard token.

    Either you've made a huge mistake here or you're openly admitting to limiting player rewards for an event that you've been hyping for two weeks with an outright malicious design philosophy. Take your pick.

    This whole anniversary is highlighting the worst parts of this game when it should be highlighting the best. Usually for all of this outrage I'd expect some sort of compensation but at this point I don't even care; that's how dejected and disgusted I am. I don't even want to play anymore and I'm only soldiering on for the sake of my alliance.
  • Philly79
    Philly79 Posts: 422 Mover and Shaker
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    Teddybabes wrote:
    This anniversary is like getting a birthday cake. But I have to pay for it, and there is no presents.


    Thanks for nothing, or zero point one to be exact, I am now packing my bag. One more slap in my face and I am gone.

    (600$ customer)

    $2270 spent since Jan. 2015 when I started and I am will you...I am about ready to cut my losses and walk...I get paid on Wednesdays so maybe I start pouring my $ into something more useful. So utterly sick of the token pulls that I actually think they target people that have paid real $ and somehow drop their pull rate to entice more spending. Maybe I am over thinking it but I have pulled 1 4* cover from any/ tokens since the release of Jean Gray (minus legend tokens which I have only gotten 3 usable out of 9)....maybe a class action lawsuit will put some things in motion...I see that draftkings and fanduel (fantasy football) were recently investigated for unfair practices..wonder what would be found if d3 opened the books?
  • hey philly same boat less money about $600 since last october

    And I opened over 100 heroics since my last heroic 4* came. Had to grind for everything else. Obviously I was hoping this event would toss me a couple nice rewards. Just 2 or 3 aside from Cyc.

    And a fun time, which is better than the rewards. Hear that devs, I WOULD HAVE SETTLED FOR FUN!!! as thats why we play

    Thanks for the shaft... I can dig it
  • IceIX wrote:
    Hey all,

    Wanted to share a few things about how Galactus works and what we're expecting versus what we're seeing.

    That what you're expecting is what you're seeing

    To start, it seems like a lot of people are on a basic disconnect here, Uhm ok looking at the boss battle similar to how Ultron ran in terms of how things work. Meaning that Ultron should be going down pretty regularly. He's powerful, but his real power lies in the fact that killing his body doesn't stop him. You need to crush every one of his drones and main bodies to win. So winning rounds is a pretty regular occurrence. As it should be Game-wise, what this means is that players won fairly easily against Ultron and took their lumps against the drones. The stopping timer there was health packs based on when the drones finally wore you down. What this also meant is that the higher end Alliances would chew through the entire Event in about 12 hours and let it kinda sit for 3 days.

    Galactus is different. The "minion" fights against the villains are relatively simple. They're there as minor hazards but relatively easily winnable. Yeah, Level 395 Gorgon determined that to be otherwise Galactus on the other hand is a massive threat. He's not going to be stopped by gnats. Iron Fist punching him in the toe isn't very painful. Yep and Silver Surfer and Old Man Logan are nats too. Who knew? So he gets bored and swats them away. In game terms, this means that players are going to be beaten. Winning a round against Galactus is an achievement. For 40 ISO that we may or may not get You're supposed to lose. Why play to lose? Sounds like my favorite NFL team Every time you do, you're still chipping away at his life. Very slowly when I lose and make 860 points, HUGE DENT It's an exercise in damage in aggregate. Over the 3.5 days, hitting him over and over to finally bring down the big bad is somewhat slow, but certainly effective. Let me quote said NFL team's coach "It was fun to be apart of this, we saw some great things today." After losing 51-17

    Overall, most of the higher end Alliances are in Round 6 or knocking on the door to Round 7. Which is actually slightly faster than we were expecting people to get just based on the math. They're worried about not making it to round 8. So everyone's doing pretty darned well in terms of progression. My progression is doing terribly. There are some teams rockin' the Winfinite, other teams that are pushing through with some interesting strategies (who woulda thought OBW would be a rock star against Galactus?). No one until desperation set in. Not many Alliances are getting anywhere near full clears. Which is actually intended. You're supposed to lose your Health Packs on Galactus, I paid $200 this week, isn't that enough? rather than against the minions like on Ultron. It's also why we changed up the play method for this round too so that it's not just a flip flop between Ultron and minions till you win. There's a set number of times you can hit Galactus before you need to take a break to let minions refresh. That break means that you have plenty of times for Galactus drained Packs to refresh while you can go in and get some Black Vortex in. Or play Simulator (up soon). Or get your Devil Dino on when that starts up. It's a different design than the rush of Ultron where that was pretty much all players did while it was open. Can't when I kill all 61 of my characters.... with zero health packs remaining. Pokequest "Gotta lose 'em all!"

    Long story short, you all are doing really well against Galactus. No where close to getting out of round 4 is bad. Yes, the gameplay is different. I'm sure most of you aren't used to going into a battle with the idea that you may well lose. But given that you're still pulling out wins with pretty strong regularity, I don't see any reason this wouldn't continue into Rounds 7 and 8, and on to Cyclops awesomeness. Maybe if I could get out of Round 4.

    At the outset, going into the boss battle, you're looking at winning like normal. After all, it works elsewhere in the game, and it worked against Ultron. So suddenly getting rocked by Galactus is a shock. Not a shock, but a major let down Keep at it. If things are really going to go poorly, we'll look at doing refresh timer changes and the like that we can do server-side as a quicker band aid style fix for run 1. After that, we'll figure out what we want to do for difficulty on run 2 Well turn it down from 11(and any other runs that we do in the future, of course).

    Not meant to be personal or an attack but more sarcastic.

    I had to stop playing, when a match 3 game causes stress that's an issue.

    I've spent enough and my wallet is closing and locking after wiping trivial nodes. Actually, Galactus in Round 4 has scaled up a bit it seems as well as the goons.

    Bad odds, Bad PVE, Bad all around.

    Sad I had more fun taking Surfer on a trip through the Prologue.
  • Buret0
    Buret0 Posts: 1,591
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    guib wrote:
    wow icon_eek.gif
    " The "minion" fights against the villains are relatively simple "

    for captain marvel essential, a gorgon 395 wo arrives after 6 or 8 teisatsu and who begins with 30 red ap ???? seriously ?

    So far I've wiped three times on Galactus and once on that node. Thankfully, I'm in the class of people this event seems geared to: people with a ton of useful maxed characters. Boosted Jean Grey and Switch made 395 Gorgon a joke. Wipe all the ninjas and blow up all their tiles with 5000+ damage AoE and then 5 cover black stun Gorgon.

    But there are many people in my alliance who don't have a Jean Grey at all, let alone a second Jean Grey with a different cover configuration. They don't have a max covered Marvel either.

    You made this too difficult for the majority of the users and not that tough for the rest. That isn't good design.
  • Unknown
    edited October 2015
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    I'll add my voice to those shouting into the aether.

    I'm a reasonable guy, I know what to expect from a f2p game. I actually think you guys do a pretty good job at it, generally. I mean, I keep coming back, right?

    You do a poor job at managing expectations. These events need to be finalized further in advance on your end. Then you can go ahead and spoil/leak info about big events slowly, on your schedule. It builds excitement, it manages expectations. As it currently stands, players have to congregate on the forums and on Line to speculate on what the 'new big thing' that demiurge is teasing. Other games, like MtG have made this their bread and butter and they are so much better for it. And then when we finally do get some details, those details seem to change based on forum chatter.

    It seems like the fundamental turn of the match is turn 2-3. If you aren't set up to win on turn 2-3, you are dead on turn 4. The game as you designed it just isn't that fast.Pushing the fundamental turn back a turn or two would be huge. To compare with Ultron, I played with cyclops, LCap and MnMags and it was always a nailbiter until I could get control of the board. Those wins *felt good.* These wins feel *lucky.*

    Like some others have said, I actually *like* the idea of an unwinnable battle, a war of attrition. I'd love to see a boss rush where you send up teams to the slaughter, 3 at a time; get killed, lose a % of your AP, go back in with another team.

    But here's the thing: why, if I am "supposed to lose" the galactus battle, am I being "rewarded" with crit boosts for doing the improbable? My alliance is almost finished with round 6 and actual wins are pretty hard to come by. The rewards should reflect that. My gut feeling is that your individual reward tiers are set too far out, but the data will bear that out.