**** Wolverine (X-Force) ****

Unknown

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Snip very good analysis

This is more devils advocate than anything, stand by my previous thought that one to one may not be proper analysis.

We're making the assumption Patch is balanced relative to the tier. I think he is, but let's look at him compared to one star below. Based on the Devs quote, the math says that a 3* should have 130% of damage and 130% of health of a 2*.

That holds for Wolvie health, accounting for auto-regen. 4998 * 1.36 = 6800. (also holds for Patch->XForce, health gap is 161%)

Adamantium does 3175 for 12 AP. Scaled up by 1.3 gives 4127 for 12AP, 344 per AP.
Feral Claws does 574 for 6AP, plus strength 45 strike (conditional). Scaled up that's 746 for 6, plus 52 strike tile. 124.3 per AP

Comparatively speaking, Patch dwarfs the AP efficiency of his 2* counterpart. However, interestingly enough, applying the relative scalers, 4* should be 208% that of a 2*, and Feral scaled 208% gives 258.5 per AP, which is somewhat in line with XForce Green expected damage (with the strike tiles offsetting the cascades).

So, nerf Patch. (JUST KIDDING PLEASE DON'T DO THIS)

Ummm... how to put this.....

Demiurge_Will wrote:

KrazyKeylime wrote:

you still haven't addressed the extreme cost/rarity of 4*s if they are just going to be slightly better then 3 *.

4-stars can attain about 160% of the health and deal roughly 160% of the damage as 3-stars can. If you wanted to turn health and damage into a single measure of effectiveness, you'd multiply them together - one 4-star at max level is about 2.6 times as effective as a 3-star at max level. That's less than the roughly 170% more health/damage and 3x the overall effectiveness that 3-stars can get relative to 2-stars, but I think it qualifies as more than just slightly better.

so needs to be 1.7x not 1.3x. He's saying 170% damage, 170% health which overall is 3x the effectiveness cause 1.7x1.7= 2.89 which is close to 3...

So adamantine slash = 5398 dmg or 449 damage per AP etc etc.

GrumpySmurf1002

bonfire01 wrote:

4-stars can attain about 160% of the health and deal roughly 160% of the damage as 3-stars can. If you wanted to turn health and damage into a single measure of effectiveness, you'd multiply them together - one 4-star at max level is about 2.6 times as effective as a 3-star at max level. That's less than the roughly 170% more health/damage and 3x the overall effectiveness that 3-stars can get relative to 2-stars, but I think it qualifies as more than just slightly better.

so needs to be 1.7x not 1.3x. He's saying 170% damage, 170% health which overall is 3x the effectiveness cause 1.7x1.7= 2.89 which is close to 3...

So adamantine slash = 5398 dmg or 449 damage per AP etc etc.

From above:

2nd edit: English is hard.

You're right, but Patch is still a cut above, especially on his Green.

Hayek

bonfire01 wrote:

An "average" board, not accounting for preferential matching is about 8 tiles of a given colour. So "an average" Surgical strike is 8x781 damage = 6248 damage and chance of cascades
I got a plan is a CD tile for 1044 in strikes, needing 6 damage instances to have a similar impact, more = more impact OFC depending on tile protection BUT.....
160% damage difference means 1044x1.6 = 1670 in strikes if it's a 4* ability.... so 4 damage instances to beat the SS damage. I think I would prefer that skill, others might prefer pure damage. I think it's not a stretch to consider it equivalent (ish).

Something to take into account with this comparison is that your cd tile can get destroyed, overridden, stolen, etc.. and it takes 2 turns for any damage to begin. Playing against AI R&G when they have enough blue for "I got a Plan" is not nearly as scary as when AI gets 11 black with XF. My point is that players can react to R&G's blue, and in some instances it will end up doing absolutely nothing. And that's accounted for in the budgeting of the skill.

Unknown

I would like to lodge a formal complaint.
When people play a game and spend their time (and in some cases) their money on a game, I do not think it is FAIR to completely "CHANGE" the character that people had saved up for, without AT LEAST compensating them somehow.

It took me a LONG time to get Wolverine to level 270 where I could finally take names after kicking some butt!
Now I feel like the creators have pulled the rug out from under us!!!
Wolverine used to do serious damage with green! Now even at level 270, he can only do 1360 damage.
His Black power is a roll of the dice..."Destroys every tile in the enemy teams strongest color."
How is that determined?!?? What if only 2 tiles get destroyed?!? 781x2=1562 damage! And no AP is generated!!!

Congratulations!!! You have managed to take an awesomely feared character and SEEIOUSLY DECLAWED HIM!
You removed his claws and his adamantium!
Now he's just a guy with a healing factor who can take punches.
If the game was 100% free, I wouldn't mind so much.
But now you are just being cruel.

Unknown

Its nice they have a return policy for new covers but screw those that have been working on one for over a year. How about being fair, no refund after 30 days an no nerfs after 30 days. These days, we as phone game addicts, have a number of "free games" to chose from. How about treating use fairly so we don't cut our loses and move on with yours.

Unknown

Hayek wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

An "average" board, not accounting for preferential matching is about 8 tiles of a given colour. So "an average" Surgical strike is 8x781 damage = 6248 damage and chance of cascades
I got a plan is a CD tile for 1044 in strikes, needing 6 damage instances to have a similar impact, more = more impact OFC depending on tile protection BUT.....
160% damage difference means 1044x1.6 = 1670 in strikes if it's a 4* ability.... so 4 damage instances to beat the SS damage. I think I would prefer that skill, others might prefer pure damage. I think it's not a stretch to consider it equivalent (ish).

Something to take into account with this comparison is that your cd tile can get destroyed, overridden, stolen, etc.. and it takes 2 turns for any damage to begin. Playing against AI R&G when they have enough blue for "I got a Plan" is not nearly as scary as when AI gets 11 black with XF. My point is that players can react to R&G's blue, and in some instances it will end up doing absolutely nothing. And that's accounted for in the budgeting of the skill.

I get the skills are different but, unless they release a 3* Xforce, how else can you try and compare skills? While Hulk's red is pretty obviously a lot worse than SS, even after scaling to 160% damage I see I got a plan as a much more comparable skill.

I personally would swap post nerf XForce for a Rocket and Groot with 160% more damage on Blammo, 160% stronger strikes, 160% on his heal and OFC 160% health (so scaled up to the Dev's stated 4* strength) in a heartbeat. SO I guess I would peg 1.6k in strikes on a CD tile as good enough to ditch SS for. I can't prove it by numbers because it's a different skill, so I can only say it's my opinion that I got a plan scaled up is a decent enough exchange for post nerf SS.

1.6k in strikes is brutal (I can say that from using Blade+Daken+Falcon in survival nodes) and if your other 2 heroes are offering ANYTHING in the way of cheap-ish damage, attack tiles or even Elektra's trap tiles it will outstrip SS in no time flat. It's also synergistic whereas SS's removal of a given colour is probably as bad for you as the AI unless your colour coverage is poor. In high-end matches the strongest colour is probably from a max lvl featured and, with a few exceptions (passives as highest) your own max lvl featured would quite like that AP. I think the strikes are better, some ppl will prefer the damage + cascades but I think most ppl would consider the impact of the skills as similar enough.

IF, on the other hand you were convinced SS is a lot better than those strike tiles then, from your perspective, my attempt to mathematically place the bonus damage on XForce isn't all that useful. There are assumptions you have to make when trying to compare dissimilar things and relative parity of the 2 skills is something my claims are based on .

EDIT: oh and the tile being placeable makes it a lot more reliable than your randomly placed CD skills OFC.

morph3us

I suppose the other thing that we haven't factored into this discussion is the relative AP cost of each ability, X-Force being 8AP, and Blammo being 10AP. Presumably, that factors into the devs' overall weighting equation too, but it's hard to see that a decrease in cost of 2AP is worth the overall loss in damage production efficiency between the two abilities.

Spoit

I still don't buy the average of 5 AP generated per green cast

Unknown

morph3us wrote:

I suppose the other thing that we haven't factored into this discussion is the relative AP cost of each ability, X-Force being 8AP, and Blammo being 10AP. Presumably, that factors into the devs' overall weighting equation too, but it's hard to see that a decrease in cost of 2AP is worth the overall loss in damage production efficiency between the two abilities.

This is quite important. The cheaper/faster ability is, the more ineficient is becomes. Cage uses 13 AP for 7,1k damage. Torch does 6800 for 14 AP, with first use being more expensive. Gamora does 5100 for 15 AP. If Xforce was going to get dmg per AP upgrade it also could probably need cost increased (and damage boosted further as well with it).

Hayek

On the subject of which is better: strike tiles vs instant damage + cascade. Well it depends on what you're doing. If you're doing survival nodes, then strike tiles are by far better than direct damage. But for hopping, I think it's the other way around. I would prefer guaranteed direct damage that will take out a threat. Especially if you have good color coverage since there's a very good chance that SS will actually generate AP for you. With the cd, even if you place it in the corner, it would REALLY suck if it got taken out and you're on your second match of the hop.

Raffoon

Well put original post. Someone did something similar with 4Thor though, and there still hasn't been any word on her ever getting fun again. I'll upvote, but I won't hold my breath. (I will hold my wallet though )

Unknown

Raffoon wrote:

Well put original post. Someone did something similar with 4Thor though, and there still hasn't been any word on her ever getting fun again. I'll upvote, but I won't hold my breath. (I will hold my wallet though )

I might have previously compared a 160% Mystique's 19AP stun into damage combo with post nerf 4Thor's 19AP stun into damage combo and suggested that it showed they overnerfed 4Thor.... and they might have ignored it.

Still, I figure trying to explain WHY Xforce is overnerfed with numbers is better than just saying it and this time no-one can bring up the health difference as a counter argument... in fact Hulk and Rocket and Groot CRUSH Xforce for health if you scale them as 4*s. So another thing to go in favour of my claims that's he is now under-tuned.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

Raffoon wrote:

Well put original post. Someone did something similar with 4Thor though, and there still hasn't been any word on her ever getting fun again. I'll upvote, but I won't hold my breath. (I will hold my wallet though )

I might have previously compared a 160% Mystique's 19AP stun into damage combo with post nerf 4Thor's 19AP stun into damage combo and suggested that it showed they overnerfed 4Thor.... and they might have ignored it.

Thor generates charged tiles. In pre-nerf version, it seemed like they valued them very low as both sides will be able to make use of them, with casting player having advantage of one move. That worked fine except when you realize that you can manipulate or stun enemy characters so you can gobble them by yourself. After changes, they seemed to go overboard in other direction and value them as if you are able to always gain full value of extra AP and enemy never matching single one. Just look at Ragnaros blue. Even if you value 1 fake heal as 1 true damage (which is wrong, fake heals have to be stronger or free compared to damage or they will never be used... but it's how they are balanced now) Bagrag does 1750 Healing + 3 charged tiles while Torch does 3400 damage and refunds 2 Red (value of boost 1 charged tile would give, automatically collected).

Now, if you have actual game situation, for 8AP: Rag will heal for 1750 and take 2 charged tiles while enemy takes one, you have gained 2AP over enemy 'discounting' ability to be worth 6 AP. Torch meanwhile will do 3400 damage and gain 2AP, making ability worth 6AP. Even if you value heal as strong as damage, Bagrag does half what Torch does for comparably costed abilities. Thus my theory that all charged tiles are balanced that you always collect all of them, that's only remote way to say new Rag ability is balanced cost wise.

That's why they don't see Mystique combo same as Thor combo. Thor seems to be valued as if it's discounted by charged tiles.

Unknown

Nivrax wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

Raffoon wrote:

Well put original post. Someone did something similar with 4Thor though, and there still hasn't been any word on her ever getting fun again. I'll upvote, but I won't hold my breath. (I will hold my wallet though )

I might have previously compared a 160% Mystique's 19AP stun into damage combo with post nerf 4Thor's 19AP stun into damage combo and suggested that it showed they overnerfed 4Thor.... and they might have ignored it.

Thor generates charged tiles. In pre-nerf version, it seemed like they valued them very low as both sides will be able to make use of them, with casting player having advantage of one move. That worked fine except when you realize that you can manipulate or stun enemy characters so you can gobble them by yourself. After changes, they seemed to go overboard in other direction and value them as if you are able to always gain full value of extra AP and enemy never matching single one. Just look at Ragnaros blue. Even if you value 1 fake heal as 1 true damage (which is wrong, fake heals have to be stronger or free compared to damage or they will never be used... but it's how they are balanced now) Bagrag does 1750 Healing + 3 charged tiles while Torch does 3400 damage and refunds 2 Red (value of boost 1 charged tile would give, automatically collected).

Now, if you have actual game situation, for 8AP: Rag will heal for 1750 and take 2 charged tiles while enemy takes one, you have gained 2AP over enemy 'discounting' ability to be worth 6 AP. Torch meanwhile will do 3400 damage and gain 2AP, making ability worth 6AP. Even if you value heal as strong as damage, Bagrag does half what Torch does for comparably costed abilities. Thus my theory that all charged tiles are balanced that you always collect all of them, that's only remote way to say new Rag ability is balanced cost wise.

That's why they don't see Mystique combo same as Thor combo. Thor seems to be valued as if it's discounted by charged tiles.

Yep, they seem to value charged tiles VERY highly now...... I would say overly much considering the comparison of Mystique's 19AP combo to 4Thor's implies they value those 5 charge tiles as more than Mystiques possible stealing AND about 4k damage... so 800 damage per charge tile approx value less whatever offensive potential you knock off for the difference in health (assuming the 160% claim is about right).

Don't want to derail onto talking about poor old 4Thor though

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

Don't want to derail onto talking about poor old 4Thor though

I'm bringing this up because I don't think valuing abilities purely on damage/AP is right and that even for similar abilities it might not be right or different from how devs see it. Like comparing X-Force to Blammo, we speculate on pure damage to AP ratio, not knowing what 'base' cost of a shakeup is. Juggs have one that is pure boardshake, deal only damage based on destroyed tiles, is valued at 6 and I don't think many would say it needs a buff. So if a shake is valued at 6, then XF damage is worth 2 and Blammo damage is worth 4.

This is all theory, but in order to know 'why skills cost X' we would need a real breakdown from devs how they see abilities and how they value side effects like boardshake, stun and charged tiles or difference in costs.

Unknown

Nivrax wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

Don't want to derail onto talking about poor old 4Thor though

I'm bringing this up because I don't think valuing abilities purely on damage/AP is right and that even for similar abilities it might not be right or different from how devs see it. Like comparing X-Force to Blammo, we speculate on pure damage to AP ratio, not knowing what 'base' cost of a shakeup is. Juggs have one that is pure boardshake, deal only damage based on destroyed tiles, is valued at 6 and I don't think many would say it needs a buff. So if a shake is valued at 6, then XF damage is worth 2 and Blammo damage is worth 4.

This is all theory, but in order to know 'why skills cost X' we would need a real breakdown from devs how they see abilities and how they value side effects like boardshake, stun and charged tiles or difference in costs.

The devs said all secondary abilities have a value and that is factored into the skill (as per my first post). They also said abilities in a tier are weighted as x% better than the one before (well they specifically said damaging but once you factor in the fact they said secondary abilities have a value that takes a chunk out of expected damage that means they should be scaling too). That seems to break down when it comes to starting at 1*s... if you take the % increases from 1* to 2* then 3* then 4* that makes unstoppable crash's tile shatter worth almost no AP once you reach 4* land.

That's why, as I explained, I didn't try to determine the value placed on tile shatter. I simply took both elements seperately, scaled then by 160% as per the rules outlined by the devs (secondary abilties have a value, 4* tier 160% of 3* tier) then compared the skills. Scaled to 160% Blammo would have more tile shatter per AP than XForce, even at minimum firing AP (10). So that's the justification for the comparison of the damages.

I don't see any way you can apply a 1* skill to a 3* skill or 4* skill directly like that. It makes no sense.

*bear in mind they said each element of a skill is assigned a value and those total up to be appropriate for a given tier. That is not the same as each element has a flat AP cost then do damage on what is left over. Otherwise all 3* and 4* abilities with any kind of secondary effect would SUCK because a load of the AP cost of the skill goes into something that never improves from 1* costings.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

(well they specifically said damaging but once you factor in the fact they said secondary abilities have a value that takes a chunk out of expected damage that means they should be scaling too). That seems to break down when it comes to starting at 1*s... if you take the % increases from 1* to 2* then 3* then 4* that makes unstoppable crash's tile shatter worth almost no AP once you reach 4* land.

I don't think it can work that way. By going up the tiers you increse the damage on skills, naturally. But side effects already scale themselves due to affecting that boosted damage output. oBW Reckon as 4* ability, even though it'd have same cost/ap steal, would still be extremely powerful since heroes you steal from/for have much higher damage values per those AP. She stops countdowns of both lvl50 and lvl395 Goons just as effective. Whatever AP you get from boardshake will be more powerful due to powering 4s.
Look at Mohawk Storm and Classic Storm - going from 1* to 3* Lightning Strike haven't changed, at all. Yet it's still Storm strongest skill, because that AP went from powering 1* skills to 3* skills. If secondary effects of boardshake and AP gain would get cheaper with tiers then surely she going past TWO tiers would have something way more?
Going other way around, having 4* Juggs with 1AP cost Unstoppable Crash would be utterly broken. Same with Hawkeye, a 2AP crit tile means infinite turns.

I'm not saying the skill is costed approprietly, but you can't just go and say that boardshake part of skill 'pretty much doesn't matter'. I bet they had option of removing the shake or nerfing damage, but went with second since x-force is supposed all about shake shake shake and skill that just does direct flat damage is dull, doubly so for 4*. If he would do only damage, going by 160% route, he would do (1719 / 5 * 1.6 * 8 4400 damage, basing off Gamora. But no shaking at all.

Raffoon

bonfire01 wrote:

Nivrax wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

Raffoon wrote:

Well put original post. Someone did something similar with 4Thor though, and there still hasn't been any word on her ever getting fun again. I'll upvote, but I won't hold my breath. (I will hold my wallet though )

I might have previously compared a 160% Mystique's 19AP stun into damage combo with post nerf 4Thor's 19AP stun into damage combo and suggested that it showed they overnerfed 4Thor.... and they might have ignored it.

Thor generates charged tiles. In pre-nerf version, it seemed like they valued them very low as both sides will be able to make use of them, with casting player having advantage of one move. That worked fine except when you realize that you can manipulate or stun enemy characters so you can gobble them by yourself. After changes, they seemed to go overboard in other direction and value them as if you are able to always gain full value of extra AP and enemy never matching single one. Just look at Ragnaros blue. Even if you value 1 fake heal as 1 true damage (which is wrong, fake heals have to be stronger or free compared to damage or they will never be used... but it's how they are balanced now) Bagrag does 1750 Healing + 3 charged tiles while Torch does 3400 damage and refunds 2 Red (value of boost 1 charged tile would give, automatically collected).

Now, if you have actual game situation, for 8AP: Rag will heal for 1750 and take 2 charged tiles while enemy takes one, you have gained 2AP over enemy 'discounting' ability to be worth 6 AP. Torch meanwhile will do 3400 damage and gain 2AP, making ability worth 6AP. Even if you value heal as strong as damage, Bagrag does half what Torch does for comparably costed abilities. Thus my theory that all charged tiles are balanced that you always collect all of them, that's only remote way to say new Rag ability is balanced cost wise.

That's why they don't see Mystique combo same as Thor combo. Thor seems to be valued as if it's discounted by charged tiles.

Yep, they seem to value charged tiles VERY highly now...... I would say overly much considering the comparison of Mystique's 19AP combo to 4Thor's implies they value those 5 charge tiles as more than Mystiques possible stealing AND about 4k damage... so 800 damage per charge tile approx value less whatever offensive potential you knock off for the difference in health (assuming the 160% claim is about right).

Don't want to derail onto talking about poor old 4Thor though

I don't want to derail it too much either, but someone has to remember to sound the trumpet for her. Everyone seems to have moved on to Xforce mania nowadays.

I think they may either be valuing charged tiles the same as placed tiles now, or like you said, they may be assuming they're always collected.

The problem with valuing them the same as placed tiles (like 3*Thor's Thunder Strike) is that they don't cause any matches or shaking of the board like placed tiles do.

Anyway, even if we talk about Thor now, this still bumps the topic

Raffoon

Another OP with numbers. Good post.

TLCstormz

......do I sell it? lol. Is he will an okay character for those who are not top players / vets?