**** Wolverine (X-Force) ****

Ghostwolf7

My X-force Wolverine is only lvl 131 with a 2/3/1 set up. But I do like 400-500 dmg now instead of around 900 depending on the tiles that got destroyed.

The thing is, A lvl 94 Areas with 5 /3 /5 Does so much more dmg. Hes green ability does 230x amount of green you spend.
So if you take 8 Green ap you will have - 230x8=1840

I dont know if XF wolverin was too strong in the higher brackets becouse I'm always around 80-150 in pvp tournaments, but the nerf they did on him and especially the jump on dmg from lvl 2 green is to much!
I feel its wrong that a lvl 131 4 char is weaker or equally strong as an lvl 94 2 char...

xdogg

If I sell my lvl 250 XForce will my mmr go down much? I have 9 3 stars maxed and Fury at 166, sorry if this has been asked before

dkffiv

I've been using Patch over him in PvE as he generally performs much better. I was reluctant to say it before but now that he's nerfed why not:

The only thing they needed to do was change yellow into a burst heal and he probably would've been balanced. Xforce ended up taking a lot of punishment but it wasn't hard to keep him just barely alive enough to full heal at the end of a match or in prologue. If he lost his ability to heal he would be very useful on hard PvE nodes/late PvP climbs but not sustainable due to how fragile he actually was (unless you $$$$ sell health packs).

GothicKratos

xdogg wrote:

If I sell my lvl 250 XForce will my mmr go down much? I have 9 3 stars maxed and Fury at 166, sorry if this has been asked before

Most likely not. Most evidence points to event performance being the primary influence to personal scaling.

morph3us

Having had a fair amount of time to play around with X-Force, post nerf (level 200, 5/5/2), the change is substantial. Pre-nerf, he was both a fast attack character, as well as a character with a strong nuke, and an unreliable true heal (which admittedly, is possibly a bit too much in one package). Post-nerf, the fast attack component has essentially been completely stripped out, with the substantial damage reduction in X-Force green. As has been reiterated in this thread, the damage component of X-Force has been reduced to such an extent that you can't bring him out to burst down support characters anymore. As such, I'd regard X-Force green is being primarily a board shake ability, with a damage component. That's changed him to a slow nuke type character in my book, and it seems as if the appropriate playstyle with him now is to build up enough to Surgical Strike, then drop an X-Force afterwards if required before Surgical Striking again, to shake up the board and try and restock your enemy's strongest colour tiles.

The problem with this, is that he now has an alpha strike in SS that is incredibly variable in damage output (from zero to 10K damage); a heal that is still unreliable, which you can play as a reasonable damage strike that is still unreliable; and a board shake ability with a lowish output damage component (given the health of the level of the enemies that you generally would field him against). That's not a good combination. It basically means that he's not a reliable character to come off the bench, since you can't necessary rely on SS to output the damage that you might need, and you can't rely on Recovery to proc that damage either (since you can't be sure where the Recovery CD tile is going to land).

He's definitely not useless, but he's unreliable, which is a problem.

Unknown

With scaling generally decreasing this puts a lot of enemies within the range of an alpha strike with Iron Fist + X Force with Surgical Strike. Surgical Strike easily beats Full Blast or Jab Jab Cross for the strongest black nuke and its requirement on board state is no harsher than Full Blast, and Full Blast cannot be accelerated past 12 black AP and I've ended up with some situation where I'm sitting at say 5 purple + 12 black AP, where you can't get any more black AP from Iron Fist and still don't have a match on the board to get to that 13th AP. This is very useful against a 1 villian + 2 goon node, or even nodes where one guy is disproportionally more dangerous than anyone else (e.g. The Hood).

Now if you're to fight 3 level 300 Thors you'll be better served by someone else, but the DA lineup tends to feature one exceptionally dangerous guy but only one (thankfully), and if you got two dangerous DAs (say Ares + Juggernaut), you're usually just screwed no matter who you're using anyway.

Unknown

Ok, so arguing back and forth about whether a given person thinks the post nerf green is appropriate or not hasn't gotten all that far. I've posted I think the nerf went too far but the cascade is a bit underrated by ppl but it's still just boiling down to my opinion on the matter.... so I thought I would go for a mathematical approach to looking at it based on all the info we've been given from the devs....

So first thing. Secondary effects are given a value alongside damage, and that is used to balance a power. The devs confirmed as much in the 4Thor threads where they said the nerf was done because the value placed upon charged tiles was increased, meaning the charge generation AND damage numbers needed to be reduced.

Second thing. 4*s are *meant* to have 60% more health and 60% more damage than 3*s (was in a post by a dev in response to a Q&A video thread).

Demiurge_Will wrote:

KrazyKeylime wrote:

you still haven't addressed the extreme cost/rarity of 4*s if they are just going to be slightly better then 3 *.

4-stars can attain about 160% of the health and deal roughly 160% of the damage as 3-stars can. If you wanted to turn health and damage into a single measure of effectiveness, you'd multiply them together - one 4-star at max level is about 2.6 times as effective as a 3-star at max level. That's less than the roughly 170% more health/damage and 3x the overall effectiveness that 3-stars can get relative to 2-stars, but I think it qualifies as more than just slightly better.

So using these 2 facts we can take a look at Xforce post nerf and compare it to the most appropriate 3* abilities which are, IMO, Rocket and Groot's Blammo and Hulk's Thunderous Clap. Both are green skills, both shatter tiles and both have base damage dealt. I will compare all abilities at 5 covers and max level.

Because the shatter isn't identical in each and neither is the cost each skill will be broken down into shatter per AP and damage per AP. IF Xforce has 160% of the arbitrary value points the devs use split between the 2 components of the skill it should be pretty obvious.... I'll use thunderous clap and Blammo at minimum availible AP... essentially giving a worst case scenario

Xforce: 1.875 tiles shattered per AP and 170 damage per AP
Blammo (firing at exactly 10): 1.3 tiles shattered per AP and 240 damage per AP (BUT IIRC doesn't do shatter damage because you get flat dmg per tile shattered instead. so to be fair we'll knock off a very generous 70dmg per tile to compensate) adjusted to 150 damage per AP
Thunderous Clap: 1.3 tiles shattered per AP and 119 damage per AP.

So it looks like Xforce is better than Thunderous clap and Blammo but not by miles (hence most ppl pegging it as an 3* tier power now) BUT.... we're meant to have 1.6x the damage. So, because I don't know HOW MUCH damage each tile shattered is worth according to the devs I will simply multiply the effects of the 3* skills by 1.6 and compare THAT to Xforce since, if there REALLY IS a consistent costing by the devs, they should then be similar....

Xforce: 1.875 tiles shattered per AP and 170 damage per AP
160% Blammo: 2.08 tiles shattered per AP and adjusted to 185x1.6-70 dmg per tile gives 293 damage per AP
160% Thunderous Clap: 2.08 tiles shattered per AP and 190 damage per AP.

So what does this say? Well Xforce is getting close to, but worse than a 4* thunderous clap (so a 4* version of a pretty bad 3* skill) but is significantly weaker than a 4* Blammo from Rocket and Groot. It is also important to note both those skills get better the more AP you have stored for the same AP cost... so if anything Xforce should be beating them by a modest margin to compensate for having zero scaling beyond the base cost.

Basically, the numbers DO NOT add up with the claim this skill has been appropriately balanced. By the rules the devs set out it has failed to match up to a mechanically very similar skill that most ppl would peg as pretty terrible (Thunderous clap) and is significantly outstripped by a 4* scaled Blammo.... another skill most ppl aren't raving about and would leave at 3 in a R&G build.

IMO, it should be balanced to be similar to a 4* version of Rocket and Groot's Blammo. That means Xforce should shatter the same amount of tiles (1.875 is close enough to 2.08 to not get stressed over it) and should do about 293 damage per AP in addition to shatter (since I reduced R&G's green damage by 70 per shattered tile to compensate for it not doing shatter damage). So I think, by the numbers, Xforce should do 15 tiles shattered and 2344 (may as well be 2.4k) damage on top of that as base damage. That's a 1k ish damage nerf over the origional and IMO a MUCH MUCH MUCH better version of balancing him.

There is no good logical justification for his numbers as they now stand.

EDIT: If anyone disagrees with my methods or reasoning... or notices anything where I screwed up lifting the numbers or calculating them please feel free to post. I will neither bite your head off nor downvote you (unless you're rude 8) )

GrumpySmurf1002

The problem with this analysis is that nowhere did the Devs say each power should deal 160% damage of a 3*. They said the character should**. So while his green seems to present as inferior to Grocket/Hulk, the comparison doesn't end there. Hulk Smash/Anger is vastly inferior to Surgical Strike/Recovery

Groot's is a bit more complicated as his blue is absolutely lethal (1044 strike damage), but that still need 6 turns to match Surgical damage, assuming that the tiles survive and assuming an average (9 tile) board for Surgical. Then you have the matter of how to weigh Groot's heal vs Recovery.

Where I would personally start is Cyclops. Comparing overall damage output:

Cyclops does 4283 + 8 tiles for 10 red, and 8171 (conditionally) for 13 black. 12454 + 8 tiles for 23 AP, 541.5 per AP + 8 tiles
XForce does 1360 + 15 tiles for 8 green, and 781xtiles for 11 black. To get 160% output, you need 866.4 per AP, so 16461.6. That means you need Surgical to clear roughly 19 tiles (accounting for the extra 7 tile shake up at 60dmg per tile). Good luck.

Now, Recovery also has a damage component and it's hard to full compare Mutant Revolutionary to Recovery's alter egos, and XForce does have an extra 1.7k health, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that XForce is 160% more powerful than Cyclops.


**It also doesn't say that every 4* character is supposed to be 160% greater than 3*. That's an assumption being made. If their intent is that the group as a whole is 160% stronger, then it becomes infinitely more murky waters to tread through.

edit: dunno why I had 722 in my head for XForce. Edited for the actual numbers of his damage.
2nd edit: English is hard.

Aidonis

They clearly want you to use 5 yellow now. If his green got scaled back up, we'd be back to the situation where XF is required in every node of every event in all of DQ.

They have stated they do not want this, and frankly nor do I.

Unknown

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

The problem with this analysis is that nowhere did the Devs say each power should deal 160% damage of a 3*. They said the character should**. So while his green seems to present as inferior to Grocket/Hulk, the comparison doesn't end there. Hulk Smash/Anger is vastly inferior to Surgical Strike/Recovery

Groot's is a bit more complicated as his blue is absolutely lethal (1044 strike damage), but that still need 6 turns to match Surgical damage, assuming that the tiles survive and assuming an average (9 tile) board for Surgical. Then you have the matter of how to weigh Groot's heal vs Recovery.

Thanks for the reply!

Right, so first up anger is the best skill on Hulk (in AFAIK everyone's opinion) making it tough to directly compare him to XF. His red is considered genuinely terrible, so if I compare it to SS it looks bad, If I compare Anger to Recovery then I would say anger is better in many situations and worse in other situations but that's more of a matter of opinion.

R&G is, in a way, a better comparison on a character for character basis. The 2 characters' heals are excellent skills. Both do essentially a full heal at 5 covers, Recovery might do damage instead of a heal and I am Groot always does board shake. The only reason I won't say I am Groot is a significantly better skill is you can't use it til pretty damned dead. Otherwise it's instant use, reliability (No CD), being free (passive) BUT inability to prepare AP in advance (need a yellow match at time of use) seems better overall to me than needing to protect a CD to get use, having a cost (not passive) BUT can prepare conditions in advance and damage if the CD is matched and as a +/- kind of thing either side might get a cascade.

That leaves the "best" abilities on both. Surgical strike vs I got a plan.

An "average" board, not accounting for preferential matching is about 8 tiles of a given colour. So "an average" Surgical strike is 8x781 damage = 6248 damage and chance of cascades
I got a plan is a CD tile for 1044 in strikes, needing 6 damage instances to have a similar impact, more = more impact OFC depending on tile protection BUT.....
160% damage difference means 1044x1.6 = 1670 in strikes if it's a 4* ability.... so 4 damage instances to beat the SS damage. I think I would prefer that skill, others might prefer pure damage. I think it's not a stretch to consider it equivalent (ish).

So comparing XForce to Blammo seems reasonable to me.

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

**It also doesn't say that every 4* character is supposed to be 160% greater than 3*. That's an assumption being made. If their intent is that the group as a whole is 160% stronger, then it becomes infinitely more murky waters to tread through.

Err.... I quoted the post by a dev. "roughly 160% of the damage". I know there are plenty of ppl claiming the devs are dishonest but seems a very strange thing to lie about in a post to me. I don't see why you wouldn't believe him about it. It's not like i'm comparing the skill to the skills of top notch 3* damage dealers as well.. I was using Hulk and R&G....

Regarding Cyclops. A 4* scaled cyclops destroys pre-nerf 4* Wolverine for damage, let alone post nerf but no true healing. Because the skills are pretty different I didn't choose someone like him for the comparison and it opens me to the claim i'm cherry picking one of the best 3*s to try and make Xforce look bad.

Unknown

Aidonis wrote:

They clearly want you to use 5 yellow now. If his green got scaled back up, we'd be back to the situation where XF is required in every node of every event in all of DQ.

They have stated they do not want this, and frankly nor do I.

Would 2.4k damage on Xforce instead of 1360 make everyone use him in every node? I dunno but I would think not ESPECIALLY since his black took such a hit. He was always a 2 skill kind of package and I would say His black was insane and his green was a bit overtuned. I think now his black is good (by no means amazing for a 4* at the levels the devs said they should be at) and his green is undertuned (verging on being poor/bad)... hence the post.

So... would you (or anyone else) put a post nerf Xforce with 1k damage returned to his green as OP and indispensable? Not saying if either answer is right or wrong, just curious.

GrumpySmurf1002

bonfire01 wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

**It also doesn't say that every 4* character is supposed to be 160% greater than 3*. That's an assumption being made. If their intent is that the group as a whole is 160% stronger, then it becomes infinitely more murky waters to tread through.

Err.... I quoted the post by a dev. "roughly 160% of the damage". I know there are plenty of ppl claiming the devs are dishonest but seems a very strange thing to lie about in a post to me. I don't see why you wouldn't believe him about it.

I'm not considering them to be lying. But it doesn't say "every 4 star should have 160% the damage of every 3 star." Their quote reads as a generalization of the two classes. The common interpretation is of course to put 'every' in front of their quotes, but the possibility remains that they're considering the group as a whole and not on an individual by individual basis.

Put another way, their quote could be interpreted as Devil Dino + Elektra +....+Wolverine > 1.6* Beast + Black Widow +...+Wolverine. In that case, comparing individual characters wouldn't do much, as they would recognize that some (cough Elektra cough) are not on the same level as the rest of their tier.

Unknown

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

**It also doesn't say that every 4* character is supposed to be 160% greater than 3*. That's an assumption being made. If their intent is that the group as a whole is 160% stronger, then it becomes infinitely more murky waters to tread through.

Err.... I quoted the post by a dev. "roughly 160% of the damage". I know there are plenty of ppl claiming the devs are dishonest but seems a very strange thing to lie about in a post to me. I don't see why you wouldn't believe him about it.

I'm not considering them to be lying. But it doesn't say "every 4 star should have 160% the damage of every 3 star." Their quote reads as a generalization of the two classes. The common interpretation is of course to put 'every' in front of their quotes, but the possibility remains that they're considering the group as a whole and not on an individual by individual basis.

Put another way, their quote could be interpreted as Devil Dino + Elektra +....+Wolverine > 1.6* Beast + Black Widow +...+Wolverine. In that case, comparing individual characters wouldn't do much, as they would recognize that some (cough Elektra cough) are not on the same level as the rest of their tier.

Ahh fair enough point then. I would say though, I picked some pretty meh 3* damage dealers to compare to Xforce. I don't want to make claims without checking but I would guess R&G is pretty middle of the pack for a 3* damage dealer (Hulk sucks as a damage dealer.... happy to say that (unless abusing anger with Patch)), certainly not near the top (like Cyclops for example). So I still think he's a fair comparison overall to draw a conclusion from.

The trouble is there are only so many skills that are very similar to XForce. Since I don't know how much value the devs are placing on tile shatter I can't compare to any skill without a similar level of tile shatter in it. They might REALLY value tile shatter and I just don't realise it.... by having the shatter component of the skills zero out (as much as possible) I can focus on the damage part.

Aidonis

bonfire01 wrote:

Aidonis wrote:

They clearly want you to use 5 yellow now. If his green got scaled back up, we'd be back to the situation where XF is required in every node of every event in all of DQ.

They have stated they do not want this, and frankly nor do I.

Would 2.4k damage on Xforce instead of 1360 make everyone use him in every node? I dunno but I would think not ESPECIALLY since his black took such a hit. He was always a 2 skill kind of package and I would say His black was insane and his green was a bit overtuned. I think now his black is good (by no means amazing for a 4* at the levels the devs said they should be at) and his green is undertuned (verging on being poor/bad)... hence the post.

So... would you (or anyone else) put a post nerf Xforce with 1k damage returned to his green as OP and indispensable? Not saying if either answer is right or wrong, just curious.

It would certainly ramp up his PvE effectiveness, which has been (imo) the biggest thing crushed in his rework. Indispensable? In PvP most likely, but not PvE...again I prefer a difficult choice there, not a clear answer.

Here's how it works for me. In every different situation MPQ can throw at you, if you asked what the best character was to combat that situation, the answer was always XF. Now, the answer is sometimes XF. The mean for 4*'s is clearly below where he was, and they have dragged him down to it, for better or worse (depending on who you ask).

orionpeace

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

**It also doesn't say that every 4* character is supposed to be 160% greater than 3*. That's an assumption being made. If their intent is that the group as a whole is 160% stronger, then it becomes infinitely more murky waters to tread through.

Err.... I quoted the post by a dev. "roughly 160% of the damage". I know there are plenty of ppl claiming the devs are dishonest but seems a very strange thing to lie about in a post to me. I don't see why you wouldn't believe him about it.

I'm not considering them to be lying. But it doesn't say "every 4 star should have 160% the damage of every 3 star." Their quote reads as a generalization of the two classes. The common interpretation is of course to put 'every' in front of their quotes, but the possibility remains that they're considering the group as a whole and not on an individual by individual basis.

Put another way, their quote could be interpreted as Devil Dino + Elektra +....+Wolverine > 1.6* Beast + Black Widow +...+Wolverine. In that case, comparing individual characters wouldn't do much, as they would recognize that some (cough Elektra cough) are not on the same level as the rest of their tier.

Grumpy,

It's feels like you are nitpicking his point without making one of your own or even responding to the essence of what he is trying to say.

I am inferring that you feel X-Force is where he should be and that his Green power should not be adjusted up. But you haven't really said as much and instead you are attacking the premise that a 4* should be more powerful than a 3* by a certain margin.

Care to voice your opinion on the matter?

Unknown

Aidonis wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

Aidonis wrote:

They clearly want you to use 5 yellow now. If his green got scaled back up, we'd be back to the situation where XF is required in every node of every event in all of DQ.

They have stated they do not want this, and frankly nor do I.

Would 2.4k damage on Xforce instead of 1360 make everyone use him in every node? I dunno but I would think not ESPECIALLY since his black took such a hit. He was always a 2 skill kind of package and I would say His black was insane and his green was a bit overtuned. I think now his black is good (by no means amazing for a 4* at the levels the devs said they should be at) and his green is undertuned (verging on being poor/bad)... hence the post.

So... would you (or anyone else) put a post nerf Xforce with 1k damage returned to his green as OP and indispensable? Not saying if either answer is right or wrong, just curious.

It would certainly ramp up his PvE effectiveness, which has been (imo) the biggest thing crushed in his rework. Indispensable? In PvP most likely, but not PvE...again I prefer a difficult choice there, not a clear answer.

Here's how it works for me. In every different situation MPQ can throw at you, if you asked what the best character was to combat that situation, the answer was always XF. Now, the answer is sometimes XF. The mean for 4*'s is clearly below where he was, and they have dragged him down to it, for better or worse (depending on who you ask).

Interesting perspective . I would argue that the post nerf XF would almost NEVER be the absolute best option IF you had every character fully levelled and covered available to you. If he had 1k more damage back on his green then would he be a number one choice in PvP IF you had every hero covered and levelled (inculing Kingpin and Prof X ofc)? You would see him more because ppl have him but that's a historic consequence not a conscious choice.

This stuff all becomes a matter of playstyle and opinion (as far as I can tell) which is why I was trying to stick to numbers. I will just say though... the fact I wouldn't obviously put him as a must in PvP with post nerf SS, recovery and Xforce with 1k returned damage suggests to me that's not OP...Anyone else with an opinion on that (Ideally someone who has been using KP + Prof X)?

@Orionpeace

I don't feel nitpicked . I think Grumpy is essentially saying I need to consider the 160% more powerful thing as an average of 4*s vs an average of 3*s which is very reasonable. I'm trying to say R&G is pretty mid level as a 3* damage dealer with similar (ish) skills and he's a good comparison... all perfectly reasonable (I think).

The long and short of it is he's being reasonable (IMO) in what he's suggesting and the cyclops example he made highlights that XF is nowhere near 160% of a top damage 3*. If he was trying to be awkward then he would be comparing XF to Doc Ock and pointing out XF is comfortably 160% more damage dealing than poor old Ock (or just as bad comparing him to 3* iron man )

EDIT: Oh... and don't really want to debate where 4*s SHOULD sit.... i'm only trying to argue Xforce's green vs where a dev POSTED they should sit. Anything else devolves into opinion based arguments (normally). Focus.... one hero, one skill (with others kind of cancelled out) and some maths 8).

Unknown

I'm with you. I've only been able to put together a 5/3/5 X-Force. He's fully covered, fully leveled, and completely worthless. Almost all of my 3* characters are more valuable. It's really disheartening. I almost don't want to put any effort into building characters up anymore, much less paying money for them.

GrumpySmurf1002

orionpeace wrote:

Care to voice your opinion on the matter?

Well, the basis of the argument (as I'm reading it) is that the Devs gave us the 160% number, and so that should be the baseline of where Xforce (or any other 4*) 'should' be. So I think the proper interpretation of the quote is a pretty key part of the argument. If only the tier is supposed to be balanced relative to the tier below, then analyzing that one character or one skill is better/worse than one character or even a subset of characters in a tier below isn't really telling us much about its balance.

As far as my opinion, I did respec to 4/5/4 personally, because the math leans towards it being the better build. Would I have done that if the green did another 1k? Probably not.

That said I don't personally have a problem with what they did, no. I think in essence they shifted the lost damage from green to his black skill (and to a lesser extent his yellow). So instead of doing 5k with green and 5k with black, now it's 2k and 8k. Obviously the black comes with variability, which makes him a riskier play and doesn't have the bailout he once did. He also loses a bit (ok a lot) of his spamability, but that was also one of the main reasons people used him, i.e. his speed.

So I think overall this XForce is better balanced than he would be if he had a bigger green nuke to go with his other new abilities. That world would still be XForce everywhere, which doesn't really solve anything.

Phaserhawk

Here's the simplest way to look at him, and that's himself.

Patch

If you upscaled Patch he would look like this (assuming 60% increase)

Beserker Rage:
Max Level: Deals 3340 damage, 236 damage per Strike tiles for allies and enemies.

The Best There is

Max Level: Deals 404 damage per tile, 278 Strike tiles for allies, 139 for enemies

Healing Factor would just heal for more.

If you assume Patch is tanking 3 colors his red would do 779 dmg per AP which isn't too far off from Surgical Strike, and since SS is quicker and no draw back and easier to get off, it's okay it doesn't do as much per AP as TBTI so we are okay.

Heals aren't comparable.

Green's

As you can see the green's are where they are out of line and that X-Force had too much taking out of the base. Now you can justify the higher dmg on a 4* Beserker because well, you do give the enemy 1416 worth of strike tiles, but a 4* Besker would hit for 3340 + 1416 on match dmg getting up up to what pre-nerf X-Force was, however....you have to add the board destruction and possible AP, to me that's easily worth 1K, so subtract 1K from 3340 which gives you 2340 and that's roughly what X-Force should be.

Now 15 tiles avg's to be about 630 worth of dmg so subracting that from 2340 you are at 1710 as what a base damage X-Force should be IMO. Which as I have said before they need to increase x-force between 25 and 30% and going to 1710 would be about 27%.

The Devs are saying that X-Force's board destruction and potential cascade is worth 2K worth of dmg value and I highly, highly disagree, to me it's 1K and with that it would bring X-Force to

1710 base dmg plus destroys 15 tiles (15x42=630) = 2340 dmg plus cascade, that's about right when compared to Patch.

GrumpySmurf1002

Phaserhawk wrote:

Snip very good analysis

This is more devils advocate than anything, stand by my previous thought that one to one may not be proper analysis.

We're making the assumption Patch is balanced relative to the tier. I think he is, but let's look at him compared to one star below. Based on the Devs quote, the math says that a 3* should have 130% of damage and 130% of health of a 2*.

That holds for Wolvie health, accounting for auto-regen. 4998 * 1.36 = 6800. (also holds for Patch->XForce, health gap is 161%)

Adamantium does 3175 for 12 AP. Scaled up by 1.3 gives 4127 for 12AP, 344 per AP.
Feral Claws does 574 for 6AP, plus strength 45 strike (conditional). Scaled up that's 746 for 6, plus 52 strike tile. 124.3 per AP

Comparatively speaking, Patch dwarfs the AP efficiency of his 2* counterpart. However, interestingly enough, applying the relative scalers, 4* should be 208% that of a 2*, and Feral scaled 208% gives 258.5 per AP, which is somewhat in line with XForce Green expected damage (with the strike tiles offsetting the cascades).

So, nerf Patch. (JUST KIDDING PLEASE DON'T DO THIS)