**** Wolverine (X-Force) ****

GrumpySmurf1002

At level 221 where I have him sitting, 4 yellow heals for 5832, whereas 5 heals for 9421. Thing is, he only has 8974 health, so level 5 is overkill. Practicaally speaking you'd want to get that heal to proc when he's down near 3k.

So personally, I've ruled out 3/5/5 all together. I played the 5/5/3 build before switching to 4/5/4 just so I had a reference point if I wanted to switch back, but honestly thus far green does enough at 4, which is to say still not much.

Wobby

funny enough, not seeing at all, I thought I would, his abilities are powerful

Side effect of not many having him covered yet?

GrumpySmurf1002

Wobby wrote:

funny enough, not seeing at all, I thought I would, his abilities are powerful

Side effect of not many having him covered yet?

Maybe partially, but also heavy overlap with Thor and Gamora. I'd expect to see him a bit more in Quicksilver's event.

wymtime

Here are a couple of interesting teams I am thinking about using. IF, cyclops, mystique. IF and Mystique feed black for cyclops black after he fires yellow. Lots of death.
IW, Hood, buffed 3*. IW makes Hood invisible so he can steal without being targeted.
Luke Cage, IF, Cyclops. They might be slow but can open up a can with each character.
Lthor, Kamala Khan, buffed 3*. Purple and yellow feeding green for either big nuke and Kamala will also heal her peeps.

TheOncomingStorm

Most of the people are reply are nuts.

First, the verdict was not within 30 seconds. I played him and several other characters before I made the post. Trust me, I do not play 30 second matches.

Second, SS is a knock out punch, X-Force green is supposed to be there for X-Force to do a lot of his damage till he can get his big power off (which is usually only once per match). The new green fails miserably in this regard.

Third, what world are people living in saying that his green is fine? I have respect for Nonce, Phantron, Dauthi, but y'all are just ridiculously wrong on this one.

Let's go down the long laundry list of comparisons keeping in mind X-Force green does on average approximately 2200 damage with some board shake up at best. I hear about the value of cascades; I guess mine is broken, I get one cascade once per match if I'm lucky. And I'm not talking about 1 or 2 additional match 3's, not a bounty of AP.

3* Blade for the same amount of AP does 1877 damage, but also steals up to 3 AP per turn.
3* Fist for 5 AP (with 12 black banked) does 4000.
3* C Mags for 8 red and only 10 TUP's does 2,610 damage. For 2 AP more (10), his blue does up to 4,900 damage.
3* DD for 8 AP can do 3,044 if matched by a player (and it stays on the board) or 5,447 if AI matches.
3* Gamora for 5 AP does 1,719 damage.
3* DP for 6AP does 3,299 damage.
3* Daken for 5AP does 2,744 damage.

These are 3* comparisons. 3* characters (using relevant comparisons) are better than a 4*.


3* Wolverine does 2,087 for 1 AP more and gives strike tiles. TBTI still compares well to SS. Like I said, they got SS right.
2* Wolverine does 2,884 for 4 more AP.

That's right. These are comparison to the lesser versions of Wolverine.

It gets worse. The new 4* X-Force Wolverine does 400 less points of damage at 270, then the pre-nerf X-Force did at level 70. I'm sorry, but if you want to know the definition of overnerf, this is it right here. Nothing any one can say (developer or otherwise) can persuade me based just on this that the new version was overnerfed.

Here is the kicker. 4* Dino for one green less = 2,512. That's right, Dino (the novelty character) has a better green for less AP.

I understand the importance of having balance in the game. I can understand wanting to overnerf than leave a character too powerful. I cannot understand what the hold up is in adjusting is underwhelming green ability. Like I said, I'm not looking for a return to it's pre-nerf level, but it should do (as a 4* tier character) at least as much as (and preferably more damage than) 3* characters and the trophy that is Dino. I'm not sure if that figure is 3000 points of damage, but I know enough to that 2100-2200 is not a sufficient amount.

One last plea, between MMR changes and health bumps you have effectively **** the 4* tier. It is imperative that this oversight is addressed ASAP, not in the usual wait and see and because it does not affect a majority of the playerbase. 4* tier players may not make a majority, but we are still part of the player base. I would hope that you value (or respect) us to give it the attention that it merits.

TheOncomingStorm

First, this discussion evolved in another thread, but I think it deserved a discussion of it's own. For some reason, people are saying that X-Force green is fine the way it is post-character change. Please, do not insult my intelligence. I may not be the most knowledgeable person or the best at math. However, I can do comparisons and see what is plainly staring players in the face: X-Force green is a farce.

Second, I've previously said SS is fine and so is Recovery. The problem is that SS is a knock out punch. X-Force green is supposed to be there for X-Force to do a lot of his damage till he can get his big power off (which is usually only once per match). The new green fails miserably in this regard.

Let's go down the long laundry list of comparisons keeping in mind X-Force green does on average approximately 2200 damage with some board shake up at best. I hear about the value of cascades; I guess mine is broken, I get one cascade once per match if I'm lucky. And I'm not talking about 1 or 2 additional match 3's, not a bounty of AP.

3* Blade for the same amount of AP does 1877 damage, but also steals up to 3 AP per turn.
3* Fist for 5 AP (with 12 black banked) does 4000.
3* C Mags for 8 red and only 10 TUP's does 2,610 damage. For 2 AP more (10), his blue does up to 4,900 damage.
3* DD for 8 AP can do 3,044 if matched by a player (and it stays on the board) or 5,447 if AI matches.
3* Gamora for 5 AP does 1,719 damage.
3* DP for 6AP does 3,299 damage.
3* Daken for 5AP does 2,744 damage.

These are 3* comparisons. 3* characters (using relevant comparisons) are better than a 4*.


3* Wolverine does 2,087 for 1 AP more and gives strike tiles. TBTI still compares well to SS. Like I said, they got SS right.
2* Wolverine does 2,884 for 4 more AP.

That's right. These are comparison to the lesser versions of Wolverine.

It gets worse. The new 4* X-Force Wolverine does 400 less points of damage at 270, then the pre-nerf X-Force did at level 70. I'm sorry, but if you want to know the definition of overnerf, this is it right here. Nothing any one can say (developer or otherwise) can persuade me based just on this that the new version was overnerfed.

Here is the kicker. 4* Dino for one green less = 2,512. That's right, Dino (the novelty character) has a better green for less AP.

I understand the importance of having balance in the game. I can understand wanting to overnerf than leave a character too powerful. I cannot understand what the hold up is in adjusting is underwhelming green ability. Like I said, I'm not looking for a return to it's pre-nerf level, but it should do (as a 4* tier character) at least as much as (and preferably more damage than) 3* characters and the trophy that is Dino. I'm not sure if that figure is 3000 points of damage, but I know enough to that 2100-2200 is not a sufficient amount.

One last plea, between MMR changes and health bumps you have effectively **** the 4* tier. It is imperative that this oversight is addressed ASAP, not in the usual wait and see and because it does not affect a majority of the playerbase. 4* tier players may not make a majority, but we are still part of the player base. I would hope that you value (or respect) us to give it the attention that it merits.

Heartburn

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

Most of the people are reply are nuts.

First, the verdict was not within 30 seconds. I played him and several other characters before I made the post. Trust me, I do not play 30 second matches.

Second, SS is a knock out punch, X-Force green is supposed to be there for X-Force to do a lot of his damage till he can get his big power off (which is usually only once per match). The new green fails miserably in this regard.

Third, what world are people living in saying that his green is fine? I have respect for Nonce, Phantron, Dauthi, but y'all are just ridiculously wrong on this one.

Let's go down the long laundry list of comparisons keeping in mind X-Force green does on average approximately 2200 damage with some board shake up at best. I hear about the value of cascades; I guess mine is broken, I get one cascade once per match if I'm lucky. And I'm not talking about 1 or 2 additional match 3's, not a bounty of AP.

3* Blade for the same amount of AP does 1877 damage, but also steals up to 3 AP per turn.
3* Fist for 5 AP (with 12 black banked) does 4000.
3* C Mags for 8 red and only 10 TUP's does 2,610 damage. For 2 AP more (10), his blue does up to 4,900 damage.
3* DD for 8 AP can do 3,044 if matched by a player (and it stays on the board) or 5,447 if AI matches.
3* Gamora for 5 AP does 1,719 damage.
3* DP for 6AP does 3,299 damage.
3* Daken for 5AP does 2,744 damage.

These are 3* comparisons. 3* characters (using relevant comparisons) are better than a 4*.


3* Wolverine does 2,087 for 1 AP more and gives strike tiles. TBTI still compares well to SS. Like I said, they got SS right.
2* Wolverine does 2,884 for 4 more AP.

That's right. These are comparison to the lesser versions of Wolverine.

It gets worse. The new 4* X-Force Wolverine does 400 less points of damage at 270, then the pre-nerf X-Force did at level 70. I'm sorry, but if you want to know the definition of overnerf, this is it right here. Nothing any one can say (developer or otherwise) can persuade me based just on this that the new version was overnerfed.

Here is the kicker. 4* Dino for one green less = 2,512. That's right, Dino (the novelty character) has a better green for less AP.

I understand the importance of having balance in the game. I can understand wanting to overnerf than leave a character too powerful. I cannot understand what the hold up is in adjusting is underwhelming green ability. Like I said, I'm not looking for a return to it's pre-nerf level, but it should do (as a 4* tier character) at least as much as (and preferably more damage than) 3* characters and the trophy that is Dino. I'm not sure if that figure is 3000 points of damage, but I know enough to that 2100-2200 is not a sufficient amount.

One last plea, between MMR changes and health bumps you have effectively **** the 4* tier. It is imperative that this oversight is addressed ASAP, not in the usual wait and see and because it does not affect a majority of the playerbase. 4* tier players may not make a majority, but we are still part of the player base. I would hope that you value (or respect) us to give it the attention that it merits.

i agree with your post, but the devs made it clear that they don't want 4* to be what we think they should be. they want them 160% stronger then 3*, which does even follow this statement when comparing it to his lower versions. i will make make it clear to them but not supporting their product. i wanted so much to make this game a fun, engaging game, but i cant force them. i will stick around though because this game has so much potential, they stumbled on to something good but are taking it in what seems the wrong direction. i hope they listen to you, but i doubt it.

NorthernPolarity

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

Here is the kicker. 4* Dino for one green less = 2,512. That's right, Dino (the novelty character) has a better green for less AP.

I'm not so sure if this is the way to argue why X-Force is underpowered. To show why it doesn't make sense, here's an example: I can say that 2* Wolverine's red does the exact same damage as thunder strike, except Wolverine is a 2* and LazyThor is a 3*. Therefore, Thunder Strike sucks. Ridiculous sounding i know, but the logic behind it is the same logic that you are using to compare abilities. First, I looked at two abilities damage values while completely ignoring all other effects, and then said that one was better than the other simply because it did more damage. It doesn't make sense to compare something like Patch's green (strike tiles on both sides, requires a focused team to make Patch green worth it) to X-Force green (not meant to be his main ability, does board destruction / cascades, is generally more versatile) when the two abilities are on completely different characters and do two completely different things.

A more reasonable comparison would be to other 3* board clearers like Hulk green or Grocket green, or to say something like new X-Force is mediocre and surgical isn't enough to carry a character. If you have some time, try to revise your argument, since I don't think this post makes enough valid points to get the dev's attention, although I'm sure that it'll be pretty good for farming rage rep.

CaptainFreaky

Agree - I've been using my 5/5/3 XFW on and off since Friday. I used him for the last mission of Deadpool's Daily, and frankly his green is a complete joke. I used X-Force 5 times during the survival node and barely made a dent against the non-goons on wave 2 & 4. I also didn't get any cascade help...on any of the 5 uses.

His green doesn't need to return all the way to previous levels, but it definitely needs to be COMPETITIVE and COMPARABLE to at least 3* good green powers. I would suggest increasing damage output by 20% and then fine tune in 10% increments until it's dialed in.

I get that Dev's want variety and so went overboard to promote other characters. But seriously, every 4* character should be very good - essentially as good or better then the best 3* characters - because of the extreme cost of covering and leveling them.


TLDR - XFW Green is a joke (big surprise) - increase damage output to reasonable levels.

Unknown

Heartburn wrote:

i agree with your post, but the devs made it clear that they don't want 4* to be what we think they should be. they want them 160% stronger then 3*.

Whatever the hell that means. What's 100% for a 3*, Lazy Thor? Beast? Iron Fist? Quicksilver?

160% of Lazy Thor green means 1032 damage per ap. 160% of Ragnarok Green is 780 dmg/ap. I suppose this means Xforce black is the 4* ragnarok, since you'd do close to 780/ap erasing 10 tiles with ss?

squirrel1120

The devs don't buff or nerf anything incrementally. They play around with things on their test servers, decide things are how they like them, and release it in a game patch. It will then be that way for months. Tweaking things until they are actually balanced isn't something that happens here.

Jonny1Punch

Does max level grocket "blammo we got ya" do more dmg as a 3* green as well? Pretty sure it also is better the XF green.....

sinnerjfl

Blammo is awesome at 5 covers, if you wait to have 12 green AP, you'll do 2590 dmg (14 x 185) + the boardshake that is fairly
amazing compared to even X-Force.

R&G is a good replacement for X-Force.

wymtime

sinnerjfl wrote:

Blammo is awesome at 5 covers, if you wait to have 12 green AP, you'll do 2590 dmg (14 x 185) + the boardshake that is fairly
amazing compared to even X-Force.

R&G is a good replacement for X-Force.

First no. R&G is a nice character but is very slow. Cyclops is a much stronger character than R&G and can do massive damage and is a closer replacement.
2nd and I hav said this before the Devs really like the mechanics of Recovery, and feel this should be his 2nd best ability and not something to use to prologue heal. The Devs actually though some players would prefer having 5 in yellow so now they have made 5 in yellow do almost as much damage as the old Xforce with board shake up, or heal Xforce. And think for 5k HP you too can have Xforce covered correctly now.

Unknown

Blammo can't get rid of enemy special tiles. It's otherwise a pretty solid ability that used to be overlooked because X Force is unconditionally better in every way.

Unknown

The X-Force changes were more of a retirement than an update. They cut the damage of his green in half and then took a little more off just to make sure, and they stripped all the interesting bits out of his black. Yay, his yellow does more damage? It's still unreliable, and liable to bite you in the **** if the AI matches it and gets a cascade off it that leads to something bad. If this is a joke it's not a very funny one.

But if we're focusing on X-Force green, She-Hulk's red is another reasonable power to compare it to. It costs one more (albeit on a different color), but it does almost as much damage to the entire enemy team as X-Force does to a single target with similar board shake. Not a real good look for a 4* character.

evil panda

Why didn't you mention Beast's green? You may be able to make a case for Animal inside being comparable to Xforce.

Yep, I went there. The biggest joke of a character in the game, and a 3* to boot, has a green about the same power as our dearly departed Xforce IMO

sinnerjfl

Phantron wrote:

Blammo can't get rid of enemy special tiles. It's otherwise a pretty solid ability that used to be overlooked because X Force is unconditionally better in every way.

err, it does do that? Protect, attack, strike and CD's at 4+ covers. It's a chance of removing them but that's the same as any boardshake. At 5 covers the hole he makes is big enough that you'll clear them if they're close to the middle.

As for the slowness of R&G, I think that it's a bit exaggerated. His green is only 1 more match than X-Force's but for better damage now. He also tends to generate you a good bunch of AP as well.

Getting to 11 blue isnt really hard and once you have over 1000+ dmg in strike tiles the match will end fast enough.
Anyway, don't use him. He's really bad and slow

sinnerjfl

wymtime wrote:

First no. R&G is a nice character but is very slow. Cyclops is a much stronger character than R&G and can do massive damage and is a closer replacement.

He doesn't have true healing therefore he'll need a healthpack every 4 matches. That's why I mention R&G as a good replacement.
Good green, true healing.

Geauxbotz

To me none of these comparisons are reasonable because X-Force is (was) a 4*. It took forever to lvl and cover him. I'm not looking for a 3* replacement. I"m looking for the 4* character I invested so much time and energy into. People can continue to say he's still a good character but it doesn't make it true. I built a 4* and now I have a 3*. It's really not our fault the dev's aren't very good at their job. I'm tired of being the one that pays the price. And honestly, i'm tired of being nice about it...