So, Etiquette. Your Thoughts?

Bowgentle

GuntherBlobel wrote:

So, would a 10 min grace period after shield break simply fix this situation?

Because this is a crazy amount of drama to have over shield hopping. I certainly don't agree that "enforcement" (or even just coordinated shield hopping) should be part of the game that players are expected to learn.

Is this a fun aspect of the game? As an outside observer it doesn't sound like fun.

It is fun.

Keep in mind only the top-top end of alliances do coordinated hops - X, Villains, Crews, maybe the top end of Best.
Not even Tacos do coordinated hops on a grand scale.

For the rest of us, it's more like, "hey, I need some Qs, anyone going soon?" or "hey, I need to hop in 45 minutes, anyone else want to go with me?".
Much more relaxed, and yes, fun.

Shield checks with the other heavy hitters are advised, but those are pretty painless, too. Pretty much any BC has people who have access to various other BCs, so it's just a matter of asking if someone has the # status of someone else.

pmorcs

I agree w/f4td & Bowgentle, who both put it very well. It *is* fun, and the social aspects of hanging out on LINE with everyone are probably the only reason I'm still playing this game every day after (hang on, checking.. .. ) 647 days.

I've made friends from all over the world, see pictures of their kids and vacations, talk about anything and everything under the sun, and occasionally we even play MPQ. Most of the top alliances get along pretty well, in almost semi-professional relationships. It's largely positive and cooperative. There are a lot of nice people who play this game.

If you find yourself bumping up against these invisible rules more and more often, and getting .. "feedback" .. in-game, I'd urge you to think about getting into a competitive alliance, get on LINE, and join the fun.

liminal_lad

pmorcs wrote:

I agree w/f4td & Bowgentle, who both put it very well. It *is* fun, and the social aspects of hanging out on LINE with everyone are probably the only reason I'm still playing this game every day after (hang on, checking.. .. ) 647 days.

I've made friends from all over the world, see pictures of their kids and vacations, talk about anything and everything under the sun, and occasionally we even play MPQ. Most of the top alliances get along pretty well, in almost semi-professional relationships. It's largely positive and cooperative. There are a lot of nice people who play this game.

If you find yourself bumping up against these invisible rules more and more often, and getting .. "feedback" .. in-game, I'd urge you to think about getting into a competitive alliance, get on LINE, and join the fun.

This is interesting feedback. In the immortal words of every reality TV star ever "I'm not here to make friends," but I am really glad that friendships are being formed and that people are making real connections. As a more casual player it's different, but I appreciate that this element exists.

The ganging up on someone who beat your friend element... not as positive, but apparently just human nature.

Pylgrim

liminal_lad wrote:

Also, this line sounds so... gangster?

Had he been obstinate and refused to participate, obviously things would not go well for either party. He would face constant bombardment and that alliance would have to waste time and resources keeping him down.

Whew, thank you, so it was not just me who thought that. That whole post sounded like "It doesn't have to be that way, friend; just kiss the bejewelled hand of the don and become part of the family. You'll be protected, you'll get favours and well, sometimes we may need favours from you. But if you choose not to be part of the family... ah, sadly one must protect one's family at all cost, yes? Especially at the cost of those who are not family, you understand," in heavy Sicilian accent.

@f4td: If we were talking about being retaliated once or maybe a couple times after a careless sniping, I guess that I'd understand. But people were talking about systemic ganging that would continue not only for the rest of the even, but throughout the rest of the season; literally thousands of points lost and dozens of prizes missed in punishment for grabbing 75 points from the wrong person. I'm sorry but that's bullying of the worst calibre no matter how nice you want to paint being part of such apparently helpful and friendly community (to insiders) and how you use loaded language such as "lone wolves" or "anarchists" to talk about those who "obstinately refuse" to join or are unaware that they should. "Join and enjoy, don't join and stomach the unfortunately consequences" is, again, a bullying tactic even if you are actually not intending to sound threatening.

jimstarooney

dearbluey wrote:

So...if I'm reading all this right, "etiquette" at the moment is mostly "big" alliances saying "We own the shard. You play by our rules, or we'll send the 'enforcers' to make an example of you." Right?

Sounds like Mafioso tactics, honestly.

This is how I choose a target:
1) Hey, points!
2) Oh, that name looks familiar...
3) Alliance member, leave 'em alone.
4) I vaguely recall you being a forumite...uh...have we spoken?

I don't check your shields. I don't look to see if you're in a big alliance or flying solo. I don't care, particularly, whether you retaliate against me.
And I don't expect you to do any of these things either.

I end up where I end up.

its not really as bad as it sounds.yes bigger alliances tend to go in the same slice so the chances of running into several members of the same alliance are quite high.imo crewsaders offered the olive branch to this guy by inviting him to their shield check room thus stopping this guy hitting em on their hops and he could use their considerably high pts to climb easier co ordinated with a top alliance.win/win.

Unknown

Mathrim wrote:

What about are You all talking here???

PVP is just WAR. You can fight alone or together with people in Alliance, in BC etc.

You can # check or not, but You must always count with consequences.

Each player has his playstyle, one is sniping, other not, but snipers must count with answer..... small or big, depends from the side he hit.

WAR WAR WAR

Since there's so much snipe talk in here & I'm still trying to learn stuff, is sniping when you hit a node for 70+? Does that mean that that player was unshielded & if you had waited till later that point value would drop to like 40+, meaning they were shielded? Because if that's the unwritten rule people are talking about, I will gladly stop hitting nodes for 70+.

Malcrof

PM cleared this up, ignore this.

jimstarooney

downsouthman1 wrote:

Mathrim wrote:

What about are You all talking here???

PVP is just WAR. You can fight alone or together with people in Alliance, in BC etc.

You can # check or not, but You must always count with consequences.

Each player has his playstyle, one is sniping, other not, but snipers must count with answer..... small or big, depends from the side he hit.

WAR WAR WAR

Since there's so much snipe talk in here & I'm still trying to learn stuff, is sniping when you hit a node for 70+? Does that mean that that player was unshielded & if you had waited till later that point value would drop to like 40+, meaning they were shielded? Because if that's the unwritten rule people are talking about, I will gladly stop hitting nodes for 70+.

pts only go down when the target loses pts irrelevant if they are shielded or not.

dr tinykittylove

I have no idea about etiquette and have never seen the inside of a battle chat. I only know I hate to get hit during a hop and so I try to refrain from hitting others during their hops. Do unto others etc.

GuntherBlobel

Bowgentle wrote:

GuntherBlobel wrote:

So, would a 10 min grace period after shield break simply fix this situation?

Because this is a crazy amount of drama to have over shield hopping. I certainly don't agree that "enforcement" (or even just coordinated shield hopping) should be part of the game that players are expected to learn.

Is this a fun aspect of the game? As an outside observer it doesn't sound like fun.

It is fun.

Keep in mind only the top-top end of alliances do coordinated hops - X, Villains, Crews, maybe the top end of Best.
Not even Tacos do coordinated hops on a grand scale.

Well, that's good to hear, actually.

I like PvP but I really don't want to get into BC. I guess I'll never know if people are purposely leaving me to hop in peace or if I am tanking because I'm on somebody's "hit list." But if basically everyone knows everyone else that is trying for 1300 through LINE, then I get it, and that's not me anyhow.

A grace period would still be nice, though... Jean Grey teams are eating me alive!

franckynight

i don't understand all this mafia talk.. if you don't interfere with the team, you'll never hear from us.. we are shileld hoping exclusively between us (that meant a whopping 20 guys/gals, no cross BC, no sister alliance).. sometimes we invite one or two guests in our BC if they are willing to put some points or simply because we find them cool.. we re not riding any coattail.. once again, we chase repeated offenders.. if you come to our shard and hit us multiple times for 70-75 pts, what are we supposed to do? bend over? its because a lot of ppl have taken an habit to target us thinking they are in for easy points that we decided to push back.. so, yes.. we are ferocious and anyone who have been under the fire of the crews patrol, like we jokingly called it, will tell you how hard it is to put any kind of points.. but we re not an arrogant bunch and if the guy/gal reach to us, we happily stop and socialize with him/her.. i cant recall how many ppl i hit very hard (when i said hard its maybe 25-30 hits on a pvp) and now with whom i playfully joke on some random chat.. no beef.. nothing personal.. its just a game.. you re cool with us (shield checking or not bracket sniping), we re cool with you.. otherwise, we re doing what we have to do to protect our points.. nothing thuggish in this..

Unknown

franckynight wrote:

i don't understand all this mafia talk.. if you don't interfere with the team, you'll never hear from us.. we are shileld hoping exclusively between us (that meant a whopping 20 guys/gals, no cross BC, no sister alliance).. sometimes we invite one or two guests in our BC if they are willing to put some points or simply because we find them cool.. we re not riding any coattail.. once again, we chase repeated offenders.. if you come to our shard and hit us multiple times for 70-75 pts, what are we supposed to do? bend over? its because a lot of ppl have taken an habit to target us thinking they are in for easy points that we decided to push back.. so, yes.. we are ferocious and anyone who have been under the fire of the crews patrol, like we jokingly called it, will tell you how hard it is to put any kind of points.. but we re not an arrogant bunch and if the guy/gal reach to us, we happily stop and socialize with him/her.. i cant recall how many ppl i hit very hard (when i said hard its maybe 25-30 hits on a pvp) and now with whom i playfully joke on some random chat.. no beef.. nothing personal.. its just a game.. you re cool with us (shield checking or not bracket sniping), we re cool with you.. otherwise, we re doing what we have to do to protect our points.. nothing thuggish in this..

This is the bullying I think some of us are talking about. People who aren't in the "know" as to what rules you are playing by. It doesn't matter if you become friends later with some of them, bullying still sucks...

This is the key "no beef.. nothing personal.. its just a game" - if that's true, why would a group team up on someone playing a game well within their rights?

As a caveat to what I'm saying, I have less of an issue with your group targeting repeat offenders. I still don't condone it but if someone is attacking multiple times, maybe they really are being a jerk. But does that justify a group attack? IDK...

JamieMadrox

I'm on both sides of this fence. I'm a member of a large enough alliance that we essentially form our own truce as big as any other. We also have a shield check room on line that we welcome people in to on an event by event basis. That said, If I'm climbing and you're worth points and not a friendly, I'm going to ride your Q from 75 to 10 if you're easy and there's nothing else out there. I'll try not to hit someone too much, but if I'm climbing to shield all bets are off unless you're a friendly.

Even if you are a friendly, if I know I'm going to shield at much higher points than what you are I'll give you a tap so you have a a good retaliation Q for after I #.

I'm a jerk though.

fight4thedream

Pylgrim wrote:

liminal_lad wrote:

Also, this line sounds so... gangster?

Had he been obstinate and refused to participate, obviously things would not go well for either party. He would face constant bombardment and that alliance would have to waste time and resources keeping him down.

Whew, thank you, so it was not just me who thought that. That whole post sounded like "It doesn't have to be that way, friend; just kiss the bejewelled hand of the don and become part of the family. You'll be protected, you'll get favours and well, sometimes we may need favours from you. But if you choose not to be part of the family... ah, sadly one must protect one's family at all cost, yes? Especially at the cost of those who are not family, you understand," in heavy Sicilian accent.

@f4td: If we were talking about being retaliated once or maybe a couple times after a careless sniping, I guess that I'd understand. But people were talking about systemic ganging that would continue not only for the rest of the even, but throughout the rest of the season; literally thousands of points lost and dozens of prizes missed in punishment for grabbing 75 points from the wrong person. I'm sorry but that's bullying of the worst calibre no matter how nice you want to paint being part of such apparently helpful and friendly community (to insiders) and how you use loaded language such as "lone wolves" or "anarchists" to talk about those who "obstinately refuse" to join or are unaware that they should. "Join and enjoy, don't join and stomach the unfortunately consequences" is, again, a bullying tactic even if you are actually not intending to sound threatening.

Pylgrim, I'm not going to continue to butt heads with you over this. I will say that your gangster analogy while funny is very misleading and your characterization of these alliances as bullies is also not fair. For starters, there are only two rules that I am aware of when you join a battlechat:

1.)If you have someone in your node who is part of the battlechat, check to see if they are shielded or not before you hit them.
2.) If they are unshielded, wait until they shield before hitting them.

That's it. Perhaps other alliances have other rules but I doubt it. I fail to see how these two requirements make these battlechats oppressive organizations.

As for hit lists, have you taken the time to consider the point of view of these alliances? They have spent most of the event building up points. They have invested a significant amount of HP, time and effort. Then you have late comers who wait to play the event because: 1.) They don't want to or can't spend the same amount of time or HP playing the event, and 2.) they know there will be a lot more points at the end making for a quicker progression. These two groups do not have to be in opposition. However, if you are a commander of a top alliance which players have spent probably more HP then they will earn from the event and are getting reports of your members getting sniped during their shield hops by the same player, what are you going to do? Tell them "Sorry, that player isn't in our alliance or battlechat so he or she is probably unaware that they are hitting us so we are just going to have to let it slide" or try to find a way to rectify the problem?

As I have stated before, most if not all of these alliances are not out to hit single targets, they are focused on maximizing points. The reason they reach out to other players not in their alliance to join battlechat is not because they are trying to bully them, but because they are trying to protect their interests. Would you rather they just not say anything and give you the beat down in hopes that you quit the game? Why should they roll over and take it from people who have not invested the same HP and time in the event? And furthermore, as it was explained to me hitlists are cleared after each event unless an alliance encounters a repeat offender.

What people that "just want to play the game as it was intended" don't seem to understand is that these points they are getting are not being produced out of thin air. Someone has to set the track for people to reach 1000 and 1300 and most of this work is done by the top alliances who have players who spend a lot of time and HP coordinating shield hops. These alliances have imposed no great laws or rules on pVp. You do not have to kiss the hand of the don because there is no don. You just have to ask if the person you have lined up for a hit is shielded or not.

Finally, I'll ask you to re-read each post in this thread. I found two that I thought reflected the two different attitudes concerning this matter rather well:

Linkster79 wrote:

There is no etiquette. PvP is a dog eat dog world and I will nail anyone I deem suitable as many times as possible if need be. Friends, alliance members I have attacked them all and I would again if I had to. I know that by saying this I will most likely be placed on some sort of hit list, I couldn't give a fig, if folks want to do that kind of thing then good luck to them.

franckynight wrote:

Im sorry if i sounded like a jerk to some of you but what i told again is about high end pvp.. im talking about guys with strong enough rosters to be in top50 alliances.. Newbs/transitionners are invisible to us anyway the way mmr is set now.. This a world apart full of intricacies, dramas and subplots.. There are individual truces.. Multi battle chats.. Alliance truces.. Wars.. Etc.. The guys i'm hunting are repeated offenders.. Not random ppl that will hit one of us inadvertly on his way to 1k.. Enforcing is now part of the game.. Thats how it is.. Is it good? I dont know.. What i know is that it lets us protect our climbers by limiting the number of hits they could get.. As long as ppl feel entitled to hit ppl for 75 without consequence you ll have top teams that will take those points back.. Again high end pvp is a world apart..

And then I ask you, which of these people comes off as a bully? The person who proclaims he doesn't care who he hits or the one who apologizes for coming off aggressively and further tries to explains his position?

You mentioned at the beginning of this thread that you were going to try battlechat for the Jean PvP. I only ask that if you do plan on continuing to do so, you do with an open mind and a willingness to communicate.

Peace (=^‥^)ノ☆

Unknown

fight4thedream wrote:

Linkster79 wrote:

There is no etiquette. PvP is a dog eat dog world and I will nail anyone I deem suitable as many times as possible if need be. Friends, alliance members I have attacked them all and I would again if I had to. I know that by saying this I will most likely be placed on some sort of hit list, I couldn't give a fig, if folks want to do that kind of thing then good luck to them.

franckynight wrote:

Im sorry if i sounded like a jerk to some of you but what i told again is about high end pvp.. im talking about guys with strong enough rosters to be in top50 alliances.. Newbs/transitionners are invisible to us anyway the way mmr is set now.. This a world apart full of intricacies, dramas and subplots.. There are individual truces.. Multi battle chats.. Alliance truces.. Wars.. Etc.. The guys i'm hunting are repeated offenders.. Not random ppl that will hit one of us inadvertly on his way to 1k.. Enforcing is now part of the game.. Thats how it is.. Is it good? I dont know.. What i know is that it lets us protect our climbers by limiting the number of hits they could get.. As long as ppl feel entitled to hit ppl for 75 without consequence you ll have top teams that will take those points back.. Again high end pvp is a world apart..

And then I ask you, which of these people comes off as a bully? The person who proclaims he doesn't care who hits or the one who apologizes for coming off aggressively and further tries to explains his position?

Peace (=^‥^)ノ☆

Frankly, the 2nd is more bullying imo (not franckynight personally, just the example given). The 1st is hitting anyone without discrimination. As part of a game that allows that, I'm okay with it. The 2nd is trying to enforce a rule and beat down someone not playing by their rule. The 1st is just out for points. The 2nd is trying to teach someone a lesson.

fight4thedream

Prof Krusty wrote:

fight4thedream wrote:

Linkster79 wrote:

There is no etiquette. PvP is a dog eat dog world and I will nail anyone I deem suitable as many times as possible if need be. Friends, alliance members I have attacked them all and I would again if I had to. I know that by saying this I will most likely be placed on some sort of hit list, I couldn't give a fig, if folks want to do that kind of thing then good luck to them.

franckynight wrote:

Im sorry if i sounded like a jerk to some of you but what i told again is about high end pvp.. im talking about guys with strong enough rosters to be in top50 alliances.. Newbs/transitionners are invisible to us anyway the way mmr is set now.. This a world apart full of intricacies, dramas and subplots.. There are individual truces.. Multi battle chats.. Alliance truces.. Wars.. Etc.. The guys i'm hunting are repeated offenders.. Not random ppl that will hit one of us inadvertly on his way to 1k.. Enforcing is now part of the game.. Thats how it is.. Is it good? I dont know.. What i know is that it lets us protect our climbers by limiting the number of hits they could get.. As long as ppl feel entitled to hit ppl for 75 without consequence you ll have top teams that will take those points back.. Again high end pvp is a world apart..

And then I ask you, which of these people comes off as a bully? The person who proclaims he doesn't care who hits or the one who apologizes for coming off aggressively and further tries to explains his position?

Peace (=^‥^)ノ☆

Frankly, the 2nd is more bullying imo (not franckynight personally, just the example given). The 1st is hitting anyone without discrimination. As part of a game that allows that, I'm okay with it. The 2nd is trying to enforce a rule and beat down someone not playing by their rule. The 1st is just out for points. The 2nd is trying to teach someone a lesson.

Fair enough. I can't argue with that reasoning Prof Krusty. But I will also point out that the game also allows for alliances and allows alliances to target one player. Which goes back to my question of what do you think alliances are for? For people like Franckynight it seems alliances are for protecting ones alliance members. I don't see how you could call that bullying but it becomes one of these issues i guess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ3fjQa5Hls

Malcrof

So.. all this being said, who do i have to pay to have one of these alliances dump points on me after they hit their marks, so i can actually hit 1k??

Unknown

dr tinykittylove wrote:

I have no idea about etiquette and have never seen the inside of a battle chat. I only know I hate to get hit during a hop and so I try to refrain from hitting others during their hops. Do unto others etc.

How do you know they're hopping? That's the part I don't get. I mean, maybe I don't get it because my roster's not there yet & I'm not scoring enough points in an event to have ever noticed. IDK.

simonsez

downsouthman1 wrote:

How do you know they're hopping? That's the part I don't get.

If you queue a target value that lets you deduce they're over 1000 points, they must be hopping because they wouldn't be able to hang onto those points otherwise.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

downsouthman1 wrote:

How do you know they're hopping? That's the part I don't get.

If you queue a target value that lets you deduce they're over 1000 points, they must be hopping because they wouldn't be able to hang onto those points otherwise.

Basically you mean check the leaderboard & see who's on top? And if I was able to queue one of them at all, they must be hopping? Otherwise I would not have seen them at all right? And then what do I do, wait like 30 or 60 minutes to hit them, knowing they'll be shielded by then? I'm merely trying to understand these "rules" so I don't get targetted.