**** Deadpool (Uncanny X-Force) ****

morph3us

Phaserhawk wrote:

So obviously the more times black triggers the 5 in black builds start to outstrip everything else. As for 5/3/5 vs. 3/5/5 the magic number is 3. After 3 black triggers 3/5/5 is probably going to do more dmg on average than 5/3/5. After 4 triggers 5/5/3 outstrips 5/3/5 it would probably take 5 or more for 5/4/4 or 4/5/4 to out do 5/3/5 so for me, anythoughts of 5/4/4 are done, but this helps me from here.

The other factor to consider is whether you have an alternative outlet for the red or purple that's comparable. Since black's a passive, it's essentially "free" damage (providing XDP isn't tanking most of his colours). Red's relatively expensive, and purple's either not guaranteed to go off, or requiring holding it until you can combo into the damage instead. I suspect that's why we're having so much trouble nailing down an optimal build; it really depends on your team construction.

Buret0

barrok wrote:

One thing to factor in with XDP, is that you can't just use purple. You might have 7 purple but a board state where you can't access any of the colors to make matches, so you hold off casting it. Red you can just use, and black is just whatev. I have a 3/5/5 DP and I think the purple is great when you are with someone who can force them to go off, but by themselves (even with a board shaker) purple is more difficult to maximize (and it can be really frustrating). Take that for what it's worth

Two things:

1) I agree, purple is easy to obtain, but not simple to deploy.
2) I disagree that you simply drop a Red when you've got 13. Downing an opponent at the right time and making sure that you aren't wasting healing is important. I try and hold off on using it until Deadpool has taken more hits.

Deadpool is a great character because of the nuance in how to play him. There's a balance between wanting to take the damage with Deadpool, knowing that you can heal it, and wanting to take the damage with someone else, knowing that Deadpool will dish out free damage.

Also a third thing:

3) Not having an indicator that shows strongest color when so many characters use strongest color is stupid.

Seriously. This needs to happen.

Either that or just change the text in game from "the enemies strongest color" to [Strongest Color].

So when you read the ability description outside of a match his ability would read:

"I just made like 4 fake 3-turn Countdown tiles on the bad guys' strongest color tiles."

But in a match it would read:

"I just made like 4 fake 3-turn Countdown tiles on red tiles." (because Hulkbuster, Deadpool, Thing, Cyclops...)

Turbosmooth

raisinbman wrote:

maximumboo wrote:

The problem with Purple is that, it is difficult to (i) acquire enough purple to activate the skill

????

I had the same reaction. You get enough purple (7) in 2 or 3 matches. The red is a lot harder to come by at 13 with 4 or 5 matches. A lot of AI will have strong red and try to farm that themselves.
The hard part with Countdown for What is that generally there will be 0 or 1 matches ready with the opponent's strongest color. So to get the full effect, you need to take advantage of the countdowns as others have stated. Countdown for What does have the most satisfying experience.

Even though 5/3/5 is the highest voted in this thread, it looks like most vets are choosing 5/5/3 or 3/5/5 which is what I am seeing in the wild.
I'm at 3/3/3 and it's a tough choice what to do next. His partners would range from SW, Thing, XWolv, CMag.

One of the questions is if you do 5/3/5, will a human PvP attack it differently than x/5/x? Isn't 3 in the passive deterrent enough?

D3 needs to work on in match information: Team's and enemies' strongest color, % of health of each member when clicked, and turns character is stunned. On mobile, the stunned number is hidden on the left side for a non-front character. Or both C4W and XE show previews of what color it'll use. All goons have the same integer and it's a guess.

Buret0

Turbosmooth wrote:

One of the questions is if you do 5/3/5, will a human PvP attack it differently than x/5/x? Isn't 3 in the passive deterrent enough?

Do a lot of people even bother to check the roster of the player before deciding? I mean, when I see a FistBuster, I don't bother checking to see if this 1/1000 Hulkbuster is 3/5/5. If I see a Hood, I assume that Hood is going to have 5 covers in DA.

I mean, if I see a level 100 Deadpool with all three covers, I'm going to assume it is the free health deadpool in the PvP with 1 cover in each and not a 3/5/5 Deadpool pretending to be a 1/1/1 Deadpool.

When I see a level 270 Deadpool, I don't stop to check the roster and see how he's built before I go... to be honest.

There have been odd times when this has come up. Like I fought a max boosted Cyclops that I assumed was 5/3/5, only to be pleasantly surprised when he used optic blasts and I learned that he was 3/5/5. But really... how necessary is it going to be to check the covers before fighting.

Because if it is going to be necessary, I'd like the developers to stop hiding that information in the roster page and just post the damn numbers right there in the matchup.

Phaserhawk

Okay boys and girls, I won't bother with all the number crunching scenarios I did, but I'll sum it up.

My assumptions for calculations are this. You get 1 red and 2 purples off every match, again using Luke Cage as an example this is not hard at all.

So, after crunching there are 4 viable builds 5/5/3, 5/4/4, 5/3/5 and 3/5/5 Anything else really is suboptimal.

Now if you can explode every purple every time obviously 5 purple builds are the way to go.

As for 5/3/5 and 3/5/5 the difference is 2.25 which is the number of activations X-Enforcer has to trigger for 3/5/5 to do the same, since it can't happen, so 3 is the magic number.

5/5/3 is only really good if you are only triggering 1/3rd of the CD tiles, this I have not found to be the case, at worst I'm leaving 2 on the board even without a board shaker. Between you and the AI, I really think that 50% of the tiles not exploding is the worst case scenario.

This drops the viable builds now to
5/4/4
5/3/5
3/5/5

No matter the scenario though, 5/3/5 and 3/5/5 are always 2.25 X-Enforcer difference it's almost always about 4.3K for those 2 give or take.

The closer to 50% on purple exploding, the better 5/4/4 becomes compared to 5/3/5 as it takes 2 X-Enforcer for 5/4/4 to outstrip 5/3/5, 5/4/4 compared to 3/5/5, is very similar that the closer to 50% the better 5/4/4 is, but even at 50% it takes 3 X-Enforcer's and 3/5/5 is better.

If you go 5/3/5, 5/4/4, or 3/5/5 know that you are running 1 of the top three builds, the rest comes down to the game.

Here is the decision tree.

1. Do I trigger X-Enforcer on average 3 or more times a match?
if yes, go 3/5/5 if no go to 2.

2.Do I explode closer to 50% of purple or 100% of purple?
if closer to 50% build 5/4/4, if closer to 100% go 5/3/5

3 X-Enforcer's though is the breaker, anytime you are triggering X-Enforcer 3 or more times a match 3/5/5 is the smarter build. If you are triggering X-Enforcer less than 3 times on avg, then you are going to want to go to a 5 red build.

Hope this helps, honestly I ran so many scenarios, the only hybrid build that worked was 5/4/4 anything else is very suboptimal. So answer the building tree questions and you will have your answer on the "best build" for you.

Buret0

Doesn't it come down to optimal team play though?

You assume that you are going to be using all three abilities when factoring best build... but often the reason that I go 3 covers is because the optimal team-ups have a better use for that color.

You are going to use 3 Red if you are going to pair 4P with someone that uses all the Red. Like Hulkbuster or Cyclops, but not FistBuster. DoomBuster also has the purple sharing issue. MarvelBuster? A slightly underlevelled 4* (not hard with ISO costs) would allow Carol to tank Red, Black, and Yellow, allowing 4P to use his Black passive while Carol generates Red/Black.

I keep wanting to pair 4P up with Jean Grey, but they both have 5 covers in purple, leading to waste. If you go 5/3/5 the expectation is that 4P needs to tank 2-3 colors. Scarclops is a good team for 5/3/5... good Red generation, good purple generation, maxed 4P tanks Red/Black/Purple/TU to cover off most of what the team is actively looking for.

5/5/3 would allow you to pair 4P up with Jeanie, since she's going to be using all the purple as long as there are at least two enemies left. Once you are down to the last man standing, 4P's 3 cover boxes will be enough to finish the job, or just save three more AP and use Jean again.

Unknown

What it is coming down for for me is "How valuable is the true heal?" Phaserhawk has inspired me to do some math of my own comparing the 535, 355, 553, and 544 builds. I have found that as long as you can cast Purple twice, and it goes off art a better that 50% rate, you should always have 5 purple covers. So comparing the 535 and 355 it is close. If Black goes off 2 times per match, then 535 is better than 355 unless you are paining Xpool with another good red user (Like IMHB/Thing/Starlord/4hor/Carnage/Sam Wilson). Then it just comes down to how much you value the true healing.

If you get Black to go off 3 times in a match...it is still close. But again, since with 355 you are going to be paining Xpool with another red user that is presumably going to be faster than Xpool it comes down to whether you value speed or longevity.

If you value speed rather than longevity, I think a 355 Xpool is better because 13 red can be very slow to get (compared to 7 for Carnage, 8 for Starlord, 9 for IMHB, 10 for Thing and 4hor). But if you are trying to make a long push, that true heal could prove extremely valuable. I just don't know right now.

I think 535 could prove better for PVP defense, because that build is a lot harder to screw up than 355, but 355 could be better for shield hopping (since there really are a lot of good Red moves in this game at the 4* level), so it depends really on how you plan to use him and your proposed pairing.

Again I just don't know, so I am probably going to try to get him to 335 and then make a choice

Buret0

ItzWarioTime wrote:

I think 535 could prove better for PVP defense, because that build is a lot harder to screw up than 355, but 355 could be better for shield hopping (since there really are a lot of good Red moves in this game at the 4* level), so it depends really on how you plan to use him and your proposed pairing.

I would argue that X/5/X is still good for D. Takes away the AoE threat and pairs very well with Thing.
5/5/3 4Pool forces you to attack him first or suffer X-Enforcer damage. If paired with Red AP battery, it also means that you might take longer to kill him with his true healing.
3/5/5 4Pool slows down your AP production in your strongest color.

Again, I don't think that there is a bad 3 cover build for him... it is all in how you use him once he's covered.

simonsez

ItzWarioTime wrote:

I think 535 could prove better for PVP defense, because that build is a lot harder to screw up than 355

How would the AI screw up the passive? The triggering of black is 100% dependent on the actions of the human player, no?

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

ItzWarioTime wrote:

I think 535 could prove better for PVP defense, because that build is a lot harder to screw up than 355

How would the AI screw up the passive? The triggering of black is 100% dependent on the actions of the human player, no?

Well, yes, 5 black is tough to "screw up" but my point was more screwing up the red. In the pool party PVP I played against some lvl 350 hulkbusters paired with the loaner Xpool. After an Overdrive and/or Hulk-Proof, they had 13-15 reds. Now HB would have easily been able to oneshot just about anyone with that many reds, but to my own benefit, they chose to use the (much) weaker Out of Bullets. So if you are pairing him with a red user, it is possible the AI will use the weaker 3 cover OoB instead of one of the stronger red moves I mentioned.

Unknown

The more I play with him I wonder if purple is more of a 'trap' ability. It seems great on paper but in practice it's hard to take advantage of (outside of using Fisk or Wolverine). The CPU is actively going after their strongest colors so they are generally not in positions to make matches (there are singles all over the board). Then you can get 'caught' trying to make matches to have the correct colors fall to a location where you can match them (possibly making unhelpful matches). It can be super frustrating.

With that said, nothing is more satisfying in the game than casting surgical strike after casting XDP's purple. Usually kills 2 people, or at least gets close.

Edit: As mentioned above, maybe purple wouldn't piss me off so much if the game would tell you what the strongest color is. Sucks trying to 'shield hop' only to spend time looking for the active color and then trying to remember the order they were in when the match started. Bah!

maximumboo

Assume trigger rate of red black and purple is 1, 2, 8.

3/5/5 vs 5/5/3
U give up red damage of 4k and health recovery of 2k for increase in purple damage 5088 (1512-876) x 8,

5/3/5 vs 5/5/3
U give up 3.8k ((3406 - 1460) x 2)for increase in purple damage damage of 5088. Difference being 1.2k.

But one should know that the above assumption is not always true - bad luck is common. Also the black trigger rate is higher against strong enemy. To increase 5/3/5 purple damage, board shaker is needed. While 5/5/3 gives less purple damage (by 5088 - 3.8k), more powerful partner without board shake skill can be paired with 4dp. Black trigger instantly without cost, purple need 7 and trigger only when matchable. 5 purple give massive damage, but 3 purple also can effectively causes nuisance and give bonus damage when match. 5/3/5 needs player to calculate on partner, timing, rely on luck, etc, 5/5/3 just needn't and can also give considerable damage. Extra purple can be saved for other partner's use (kp 8, sl 10, antman 9, jg 10) or his own use.

So damage speaking, 5/3/5 could give higher damage than 5/5/3, but there are many more factors other than purely damage to look at. I choose 5/5/3 simply because I like playing dp with wider range of character, and knowing that its damage output should not be dramatically different from other build.

Phaserhawk

Buret0 wrote:

Doesn't it come down to optimal team play though?

You assume that you are going to be using all three abilities when factoring best build... but often the reason that I go 3 covers is because the optimal team-ups have a better use for that color.

You would be correct, however, the fortunate thing with DPX is, unless you're plan is to run him with HB or Carnage only, he has the 3rd best red in the game, although Captain Falcon will drop him to 4th. However, unless you are using those guys with him, anyone else is acutally going to be a downgrade, thus skewing numbers even further in the favor of 5/3/5 or 5/4/4 and making a 3/5/5 extremely suboptimal. And yes I did take into account possible duos. In the end they averaged the same.

This just takes into account Deadpool overall, obviously niche builds skew stats. It's like saying that 5/5/3 is the best 3* Thor build because you run him with KK and use her green. Overall 3/5/5 is the better. build. That's why I said if YOU avg more than 3 X-Enforcer,

Unknown

Phaser,

You mention that he has the third strongest red in the game. Is that reason enough to go 5 red? If not, what other reds would you personally use in his place? Or, would you double up reds (say, Things red + DP's red) and use which ever you need in the situation? It kind of seems like HB's red is the place to be in 4* land, so do you really want to put covers into another red?

Polares

Well this one is hard, but after the last analysis I am more convinced that 5/4/4 is more versatile than either of the other good builds, and It is the one I will get (my xdead is 4/2/2 so seems it is the one the destiny already wanted me to have)

The only thing missing in Phasers analysis is healing and I think that the true healing needs to be factored more importantly in this analysis, after all, if you are alive longer you can cast black and purple more times thanks to that, so this healing would be specially usefull in PvE where you fight high level enemies. In PvP the healing helps more for the next fight, as it helps you safe in health packs, so it is also very valuable.

Ps: And I dont think Xdead is a good partner for IMHB, even in his 3/5/5 version.

Buret0

barrok wrote:

Phaser,

You mention that he has the third strongest red in the game. Is that reason enough to go 5 red? If not, what other reds would you personally use in his place? Or, would you double up reds (say, Things red + DP's red) and use which ever you need in the situation? It kind of seems like HB's red is the place to be in 4* land, so do you really want to put covers into another red?

I think the answer is that having two threats in the same color isn't a terrible thing for PvP.

Look at 4Pool and 4alcon: do you want to do 7,678 damage and heal 4,561 health for 13 AP or 7,346 damage, plus 1,109 for every friendly Protect tile for 14 AP?

Hulkbuster does 630 per AP or 8,190 damage at 13 and 8,820 at 14. What makes him dangerous is that he is a one trick pony and can quickly generate while also adding protect tiles and strike tiles to the board and diminishing a useless color (for him) in green. He can also be overkill, since he always consumes 100% of your AP.

However, as you can see, Captain Falcon does more damage per AP with only 2 protect tiles on the board (9,564 damage instead of 8,820). Cpt. Falcon just doesn't have the double red battery that makes Hulkbuster so dangerous. I mean, you can bring Hulkbuster with you, but the nice thing about IMHB in PvP was that the AI couldn't really screw him up (except by using Red when someone who was nearly down was in front). I don't foresee CF being as big of a threat, since the AI isn't going to actively seek out or produce Red.

So yeah, IMHB is still the king of Red AP.

But there are times when leaving Hulkbuster at home makes sense. Like when Cyclops is boosted and you don't want the AI burning through your black AP. In that case, you can still bring 4Pool along for the ride, unless you are partnering Fist or Doom with boosted Cyc, in which case Sam Wilson makes a decent third option.

Unknown

Polares wrote:

Well this one is hard, but after the last analysis I am more convinced that 5/4/4 is more versatile than either of the other good builds, and It is the one I will get (my xdead is 4/2/2 so seems it is the one the destiny already wanted me to have)

The only thing missing in Phasers analysis is healing and I think that the true healing needs to be factored more importantly in this analysis, after all, if you are alive longer you can cast black and purple more times thanks to that, so this healing would be specially usefull in PvE where you fight high level enemies. In PvP the healing helps more for the next fight, as it helps you safe in health packs, so it is also very valuable.

I'm in the same place as you Polares (422 Xpool) and I may be reaching the same conclusion as you: 544 may be the most versatile way to go. And I think that the reason that I am so reluctant to say 355 is the best build is how game changing the true healing can be. At 544 there are always going to be battles where 535 or 553 or 355 could have been better for you--while 544 may not have the highest ceiling, it also doesn't have the lowest floor, in that there will be battles in which the other builds could be worse. I think I am just going to wait and see which way the covers fall and be content with the outcome because none of these builds are really bad.

Unknown

ItzWarioTime wrote:

Polares wrote:

Well this one is hard, but after the last analysis I am more convinced that 5/4/4 is more versatile than either of the other good builds, and It is the one I will get (my xdead is 4/2/2 so seems it is the one the destiny already wanted me to have)

The only thing missing in Phasers analysis is healing and I think that the true healing needs to be factored more importantly in this analysis, after all, if you are alive longer you can cast black and purple more times thanks to that, so this healing would be specially usefull in PvE where you fight high level enemies. In PvP the healing helps more for the next fight, as it helps you safe in health packs, so it is also very valuable.

I'm in the same place as you Polares (422 Xpool) and I may be reaching the same conclusion as you: 544 may be the most versatile way to go. And I think that the reason that I am so reluctant to say 355 is the best build is how game changing the true healing can be. At 544 there are always going to be battles where 535 or 553 or 355 could have been better for you--while 544 may not have the highest ceiling, it also doesn't have the lowest floor, in that there will be battles in which the other builds could be worse. I think I am just going to wait and see which way the covers fall and be content with the outcome because none of these builds are really bad.

5/5/3 and 5/4/4 seem to remove his 'combo' nature allowing him to stand on his own. That might be the best route with him, but it is also boring While you can still Fisk-poke and SS-smash, they aren't as effective. I think I am going to stick with 3/5/5 until I determine if I need his red or not. With a yellow Thing cover as the 1000 pvp reward, you could spec Thing as 4/4/5 and use his red for stunning (still a 2 turn stun) and use DP's red when you need more damage and healing.

Polares

barrok wrote:

ItzWarioTime wrote:

Polares wrote:

Well this one is hard, but after the last analysis I am more convinced that 5/4/4 is more versatile than either of the other good builds, and It is the one I will get (my xdead is 4/2/2 so seems it is the one the destiny already wanted me to have)

The only thing missing in Phasers analysis is healing and I think that the true healing needs to be factored more importantly in this analysis, after all, if you are alive longer you can cast black and purple more times thanks to that, so this healing would be specially usefull in PvE where you fight high level enemies. In PvP the healing helps more for the next fight, as it helps you safe in health packs, so it is also very valuable.

I'm in the same place as you Polares (422 Xpool) and I may be reaching the same conclusion as you: 544 may be the most versatile way to go. And I think that the reason that I am so reluctant to say 355 is the best build is how game changing the true healing can be. At 544 there are always going to be battles where 535 or 553 or 355 could have been better for you--while 544 may not have the highest ceiling, it also doesn't have the lowest floor, in that there will be battles in which the other builds could be worse. I think I am just going to wait and see which way the covers fall and be content with the outcome because none of these builds are really bad.

5/5/3 and 5/4/4 seem to remove his 'combo' nature allowing him to stand on his own. That might be the best route with him, but it is also boring While you can still Fisk-poke and SS-smash, they aren't as effective. I think I am going to stick with 3/5/5 until I determine if I need his red or not. With a yellow Thing cover as the 1000 pvp reward, you could spec Thing as 4/4/5 and use his red for stunning (still a 2 turn stun) and use DP's red when you need more damage and healing.

We certainly 5 purple does more damage than 4, but I wouldn't say that a SSmash will not be effective (the difference in purple is 6600 vs 9000), so around 13-14k to 16k. And if you pair XWolvie with Xpool you will probably be interested in casting red, idem with Fisk, so two of the best partners for him doesnt have a good red. The other one is The Thing, and then you have the option of choosing less damage+stun and casting the ability gaster, or wait for more damage and the heal.

Does anybody have the stats when boosted? Because that may also help deciding which config is 'best'

Phaserhawk

barrok wrote:

ItzWarioTime wrote:

Polares wrote:

Well this one is hard, but after the last analysis I am more convinced that 5/4/4 is more versatile than either of the other good builds, and It is the one I will get (my xdead is 4/2/2 so seems it is the one the destiny already wanted me to have)

The only thing missing in Phasers analysis is healing and I think that the true healing needs to be factored more importantly in this analysis, after all, if you are alive longer you can cast black and purple more times thanks to that, so this healing would be specially usefull in PvE where you fight high level enemies. In PvP the healing helps more for the next fight, as it helps you safe in health packs, so it is also very valuable.

I'm in the same place as you Polares (422 Xpool) and I may be reaching the same conclusion as you: 544 may be the most versatile way to go. And I think that the reason that I am so reluctant to say 355 is the best build is how game changing the true healing can be. At 544 there are always going to be battles where 535 or 553 or 355 could have been better for you--while 544 may not have the highest ceiling, it also doesn't have the lowest floor, in that there will be battles in which the other builds could be worse. I think I am just going to wait and see which way the covers fall and be content with the outcome because none of these builds are really bad.

5/5/3 and 5/4/4 seem to remove his 'combo' nature allowing him to stand on his own. That might be the best route with him, but it is also boring While you can still Fisk-poke and SS-smash, they aren't as effective. I think I am going to stick with 3/5/5 until I determine if I need his red or not. With a yellow Thing cover as the 1000 pvp reward, you could spec Thing as 4/4/5 and use his red for stunning (still a 2 turn stun) and use DP's red when you need more damage and healing.

I thought 553 was a decent way to go as well until I started crunching the numbers and saw that 553 really only came out ahead if you were blowing up less than half your tiles in fact it was about 25% of the purple. My experience has found that normally about half the purple is going to explode if not more very rarely less that's why I ruled out 553. 355 did very well if you can trigger X enforcer three times if you cannot it is not the better Build. 544 came out ahead of 535 when purple exploded 75 to 50% of the tiles and 535 came out ahead when 75 to hundred percent of the tiles were destroyed

Five red let's Dead Pool do some tanking and then he'll Get it back. black let's Dead Pool hang back and penalize anyone for big strikes