**** Jean Grey (All New X-Men) ****

CrookedKnight

We clearly won't know for sure until the character launches, but my expectation from the flavor is that purple will fail if there are no enemy specials on the board, like Bullseye's Lethal Improvisation or Daredevil's Radar Sense. That would make it flat-out inaccessible against some teams (unless you bring Carnage, Patch, Elektra, etc) and against others would require you to wait until they use their own powers. You'd only be able to use it with impunity against people who place special tiles passively.

Unknown

Patch Jean working very well together, just as James always wanted uh? Too bad she has 100% color coverage with Scott (Summers, not Lang).

Unknown

Jean will be just fine. She along with many characters to come are but a piece to a puzzle. What are you haters wanting exactly, nothing but self fueling mindless characters like fistbuster? She was built perfectly with the potential to alter many types of matches. You cant view every single character in terms of outright damage produced or the game becomes stale. I guess my point is to diversify your strategy before dismissing her as a a PlayOff character.

Der_Lex

CrookedKnight wrote:

We clearly won't know for sure until the character launches, but my expectation from the flavor is that purple will fail if there are no enemy specials on the board, like Bullseye's Lethal Improvisation or Daredevil's Radar Sense. That would make it flat-out inaccessible against some teams (unless you bring Carnage, Patch, Elektra, etc) and against others would require you to wait until they use their own powers. You'd only be able to use it with impunity against people who place special tiles passively.

I strongly doubt that, because her purple says: 'deals X damage and destroys up to X special tiles'. Lethal Improvisation is phrased 'turns X selected special tiles'. Bullseye's phrasing makes the special tiles a prerequisite and doesn't allow for less than X special tiles on the board when the power is used, whereas Jean's does.

Now Daredevil's purple is phrased 'up to' as well, but that doesn't have a direct damage component like Jean's does, so it makes sense that you can't trigger it without any enemy special tiles around since it wouldn't do anything. Jean's purple, on the other hand, has damage as its 'base power', and the tile conversion as an additional ability. It's comparable to Patch's 'deal X damage and create X strike tiles', which can still be used even if there aren't enough green or purple tiles on the board to place all the strike tiles.

Ruinate

aesthetocyst wrote:

sagapo wrote:

So it looks like Professor X won't get a nerf, simply he gets a counter.

Perhaps the way to go now is less nerfs, more counters?

I thought that was always the way to go.

I agree that counters are good for the game. I don't think they should completely forego buffs/nerfs/reworks, but counters are good. Let's say the devs do a real good job in the future and we have an All New MPQ where it becomes a real intricate game of rock paper scissors where even the synergy between heroes can counter synergy between another set of heroes. Let's say Hulkbuster is still the king of pvp and so they release the ultimate game balancing character known has Hulkbuster Buster. But if Hulkbuster is buffed and Hulkbuster Buster is not, would we still use him to counter Hulkbuster? I want to say no, but I am not a 4* player and I have no experience in the matter.

Of course they can release counter characters like Loki where levels don't matter. A level 1 Loki does the same job as a level 99999 Loki, but I feel like you can only make so many of those kinds of characters for so long. This is all hypothetical and probably moot, but it was the first thought I had when people were talking about counters.

Phaserhawk

Looks to be another solid and balanced 4*.

As for build....

5 green is the only one I think you can say is for sure, it's the one skill that will always work and do everything

Now for purple and blue.

Purple if no tiles will still resolve and that's why it's probably slightly less AP more dmg. Where I could see a 3/5/5 build is as a purely defensive deterant.

With Jean max blue you are essentially countering anyone trying to attack you with IronFist, Scarlet Witch, KK, Doom, Thor 3*, Mystique, and anyone running 5 blue on Hulkbuster, plus anyone else that increases match 5's through board destruction. The only question is, is a stronger defense by gaining 3 more AP destruction and 1136 AoE dmg, worth given up 2K AoE dmg and loads of special tile destruction?

In short, I couldn't fault someone going 3/5/5, but because Jean gets the 2 turn team stun at lvl 3, you could literally do no dmg for this skill and it would still be solid.

I think 5/3/5 will be the stronger and more popular, but kudos to the devs for an on paper balanced and fun character.

cyineedsn

Pylgrim wrote:

Very surprised that the best part about her blue (the AoE 2-turn stun) is not locked at 5 covers. If it were, I would have no qualms to go 5/5/3 as her green is rather terrible in comparison to other green abilities and abilities costed 12. However, being as it is, the gain in 3 to 5 blue is truly negligible, so might as well make the ability that will be more useful in a pinch stronger.

5 in purple is absolutely essential. At 10 AP, I believe this is the strongest, most efficient AoE power in the game? Its damage compares favourably to Kamala's green, costs 2 less, and has the upside of clearing enemy special tiles. Too bad that she shares all colours (including passive ability) with Scarlet Witch, the most efficient purple battery.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought Thor and Kamala khan's greens were considered among the best Green's in the game? Isn't Jean's green as good as Kamala khan's plus extra special tiles? Am I missing something here?

Phaserhawk

cyineedsn wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Very surprised that the best part about her blue (the AoE 2-turn stun) is not locked at 5 covers. If it were, I would have no qualms to go 5/5/3 as her green is rather terrible in comparison to other green abilities and abilities costed 12. However, being as it is, the gain in 3 to 5 blue is truly negligible, so might as well make the ability that will be more useful in a pinch stronger.

5 in purple is absolutely essential. At 10 AP, I believe this is the strongest, most efficient AoE power in the game? Its damage compares favourably to Kamala's green, costs 2 less, and has the upside of clearing enemy special tiles. Too bad that she shares all colours (including passive ability) with Scarlet Witch, the most efficient purple battery.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought Thor and Kamala khan's greens were considered among the best Green's in the game? Isn't Jean's green as good as Kamala khan's plus extra special tiles? Am I missing something here?

I think KK's is superior because it's on her who has a built in acceleration on her purple, short of that, Jean's is stronger as they literally do the same amount of dmg for the same cost plus you get 4 special tiles. Thor's does less total damage but an extra 1.2K to a single target.

Malcrof

cyineedsn wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Very surprised that the best part about her blue (the AoE 2-turn stun) is not locked at 5 covers. If it were, I would have no qualms to go 5/5/3 as her green is rather terrible in comparison to other green abilities and abilities costed 12. However, being as it is, the gain in 3 to 5 blue is truly negligible, so might as well make the ability that will be more useful in a pinch stronger.

5 in purple is absolutely essential. At 10 AP, I believe this is the strongest, most efficient AoE power in the game? Its damage compares favourably to Kamala's green, costs 2 less, and has the upside of clearing enemy special tiles. Too bad that she shares all colours (including passive ability) with Scarlet Witch, the most efficient purple battery.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought Thor and Kamala khan's greens were considered among the best Green's in the game? Isn't Jean's green as good as Kamala khan's plus extra special tiles? Am I missing something here?

For Jeans green to do the damage of KK, you would need not only 5 covers, but level 270... going to be quite a while before she will overtake either of them.

Pylgrim

cyineedsn wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Very surprised that the best part about her blue (the AoE 2-turn stun) is not locked at 5 covers. If it were, I would have no qualms to go 5/5/3 as her green is rather terrible in comparison to other green abilities and abilities costed 12. However, being as it is, the gain in 3 to 5 blue is truly negligible, so might as well make the ability that will be more useful in a pinch stronger.

5 in purple is absolutely essential. At 10 AP, I believe this is the strongest, most efficient AoE power in the game? Its damage compares favourably to Kamala's green, costs 2 less, and has the upside of clearing enemy special tiles. Too bad that she shares all colours (including passive ability) with Scarlet Witch, the most efficient purple battery.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought Thor and Kamala khan's greens were considered among the best Green's in the game? Isn't Jean's green as good as Kamala khan's plus extra special tiles? Am I missing something here?

My bad, for that ability in particular, I read the 5 covers value, not the max level, 5 covers one. So yeah, 5/3/5 all the way.

Buret0

So... Jean can stun the other team until Loki is finished his mischief?

The AI won't know what hit it when you offer up those match 5s. You know all of those times where you NEVER leave a match 5 for the AI to take? That's going to be a tough one to unlearn.

Will you do more damage to the enemy team by using that 10 AP nuke or by using 11 AP to set up two match 5s for the AI to take with GSBW?

Colognoisseur

One other thing to consider when taking into account Jean's ani-PX abilities is since all of her damage is AoE it gets through the invisibility tile, too.

I also have to agree with this direction of making direct counters to powerful characters. In the post from Casey on the Demiurge page he says flat out this is their reaction to Prof X increasing in popularity in PvP. This is the way you deal with powerful characters instead of nerfing them. I hope this works because it will make things better in the long run.

It will make this game much more interesting if you are in a PvP where you expect to see a lot of teams with a specific make-up and there is a a team which negates that advantage but yet is weak to a different strategy. It will again reward roster diversity if you are able to employ the right team for every different situation.

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

Mind Over Matter - Cost: 10 Purple AP
Jean telekinetically grabs her enemy's weapons, suspending them in mid-air before flinging them back towards her foes in a hail of projectiles. Deals 329 damage to the enemy team and converts up to 3 random enemy Strike, Protect or Attack tiles to basic tiles.

Level 2 - Deals 731 damage to the enemy team.
Level 3 - Converts up to 4 tiles and deals 914 damage to the enemy team.
Level 4 - Converts enemy special tiles of any type.
Level 5 - Converts up to 6 tiles and deals 1965 damage to the enemy team.

They specify Enemy Special Tiles of any type, am i wrong to assume this will include Ultron Bombs and CD tiles since prior to 4 covers is specifies strike, protect, and attack.. also, what about traps?

Also, perfect Rainbow coverage with Cyc, looks intentional!

she's too young for him, you maniac

Whytephoenix wrote:

Jean will be just fine. She along with many characters to come are but a piece to a puzzle. What are you haters wanting exactly, nothing but self fueling mindless characters like fistbuster? She was built perfectly with the potential to alter many types of matches. You cant view every single character in terms of outright damage produced or the game becomes stale. I guess my point is to diversify your strategy before dismissing her as a a PlayOff character.

I don't see any hate, did you post this preemptively?

cyineedsn

Side note, is anyone else afraid of the slog of a jg/loki/hood node? lol

simonsez

Colognoisseur wrote:

In the post from Casey on the Demiurge page he says flat out this is their reaction to Prof X increasing in popularity in PvP

But is that even true? I'm still not seeing him much at all. If they're looking to counter what's popular in PvP, we're going to be seeing abilities like, "(PASSIVE) Damage from all Red AP attacks is reduced to 25%" or "Creates special tile. While it exists, damage from opponent's attack tiles is reflected back to opponent"

Colognoisseur

simonsez wrote:

Colognoisseur wrote:

In the post from Casey on the Demiurge page he says flat out this is their reaction to Prof X increasing in popularity in PvP

But is that even true? I'm still not seeing him much at all. If they're looking to counter what's popular in PvP, we're going to be seeing abilities like, "(PASSIVE) Damage from all Red AP attacks is reduced to 25%" or "Creates special tile. While it exists, damage from opponent's attack tiles is reflected back to opponent"

There are a lot of strategies that exist where making a match-5 has only advantage. Beyond Prof X you might not trigger fist purple twice in a row. You might no be able to if the first casting has you stunned for 2 turns.
Right now fistbuster is the most prevalent top tier team. PX is a bit of shield hopping scarecrow in that you worry you can get bogged down against it. If Jean has a partner which allows for big damage she can be a viable hopping strategy against a field of fistbusters because you know the ai will fire fist purple as soon as it has five.

notamutant

Can we start talking good teammates for her? So far, we have focused on her counter-abilities and as an individual character. I think she needs a single target high damage teammate, and/or a low AP teammate. At 10 and 12 AP for her two attack moves, you need someone to help out against low health targets with quick low damage, and high health targets with single target high damage.

wymtime

Phaserhawk wrote:

cyineedsn wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Very surprised that the best part about her blue (the AoE 2-turn stun) is not locked at 5 covers. If it were, I would have no qualms to go 5/5/3 as her green is rather terrible in comparison to other green abilities and abilities costed 12. However, being as it is, the gain in 3 to 5 blue is truly negligible, so might as well make the ability that will be more useful in a pinch stronger.

5 in purple is absolutely essential. At 10 AP, I believe this is the strongest, most efficient AoE power in the game? Its damage compares favourably to Kamala's green, costs 2 less, and has the upside of clearing enemy special tiles. Too bad that she shares all colours (including passive ability) with Scarlet Witch, the most efficient purple battery.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought Thor and Kamala khan's greens were considered among the best Green's in the game? Isn't Jean's green as good as Kamala khan's plus extra special tiles? Am I missing something here?

I think KK's is superior because it's on her who has a built in acceleration on her purple, short of that, Jean's is stronger as they literally do the same amount of dmg for the same cost plus you get 4 special tiles. Thor's does less total damage but an extra 1.2K to a single target.

Yes KK and LThor feed themselves, but Jean can do whales type damage for 10 purple and then also has her big green for 12 AP. KK purple leads to green but Jean has 2 AOE nukes that the player controls.
The big difference comes down to ISO cost. Becuase Jean is a 4* and will cost significantly more ISO. Overall at max level Jean can do significantly more damage than KK or Thor. She also has more health than both another plus.

Unknown

The first teammate to pop in my head is actually Carnage. It looks pretty obvious on paper with the strike tile creation and destruction, but I see another angle. Both can do STUPID levels of damage to the opposing 'team' and are 'max' lvl threats...who do you kill first, the person who can ram rod your team for a few red matches, or the person who does AP denial, stun, and massive AoEs herself? Oh and with all the tiles on the board, you can either do a massive single target dmg attack with Carnage's green, or if there aren't a lot of tiles, do Jean's green.

The STRONGEST teammate though might be the person she is designed to thwart in PX. Marinate on it, his inviz is low AP, so it won't really impact her ability to use her purple. If someone avoids a match 5, it can easily be triggered by the AI (on accident heh). Oh yeah and he will boost the tiles...I mean it could be pretty nasty if paired with red/black/yellow ueser...like

Cyclops. There is the obvious theme thing going on, but you get a solid rainbow, both are scary in their own right, high single target dmg, high team dmg, no overlap...it could be DESTRUCTIVE.
- Unreall

Vhailorx

Colognoisseur wrote:

One other thing to consider when taking into account Jean's ani-PX abilities is since all of her damage is AoE it gets through the invisibility tile, too.

I also have to agree with this direction of making direct counters to powerful characters. In the post from Casey on the Demiurge page he says flat out this is their reaction to Prof X increasing in popularity in PvP. This is the way you deal with powerful characters instead of nerfing them. I hope this works because it will make things better in the long run.

It will make this game much more interesting if you are in a PvP where you expect to see a lot of teams with a specific make-up and there is a a team which negates that advantage but yet is weak to a different strategy. It will again reward roster diversity if you are able to employ the right team for every different situation.

I agree that strong counter-plays to popular characters is good for roster diversity.

But Roster diversity is not really rewarded in this game's PVP format. Because your offensive team is also your defensive team, and because your old defensive team stays in place when you shield hop, building custom teams to take out particular opponents works great offensively. But custom teams tend not to be great all-around teams, so having a custom defensive team also invites attacks. And more attacks means that hops will have to be shorter and risks will be higher.

Rock-paper-scissor design doesn't match well with a format that requires teams to simultaneously be fast on offense and intimidating on defense. Will be curious to see what effect she has on the meta in 4 months when some people have her playable.

Also, is prof. X really dominant enough in PVP that he demands a counter? I kinda feel like he has settled into a nice niche of he's great on offense and can be great defensively, but little health and can be dealt with in most matches (he's the obw of 4*-land).