**** Jean Grey (All New X-Men) ****

Malcrof

Vhailorx wrote:

Colognoisseur wrote:

One other thing to consider when taking into account Jean's ani-PX abilities is since all of her damage is AoE it gets through the invisibility tile, too.

I also have to agree with this direction of making direct counters to powerful characters. In the post from Casey on the Demiurge page he says flat out this is their reaction to Prof X increasing in popularity in PvP. This is the way you deal with powerful characters instead of nerfing them. I hope this works because it will make things better in the long run.

It will make this game much more interesting if you are in a PvP where you expect to see a lot of teams with a specific make-up and there is a a team which negates that advantage but yet is weak to a different strategy. It will again reward roster diversity if you are able to employ the right team for every different situation.

I agree that strong counter-plays to popular characters is good for roster diversity.

But Roster diversity is not really rewarded in this game's PVP format. Because your offensive team is also your defensive team, and because your old defensive team stays in place when you shield hop, building custom teams to take out particular opponents works great offensively. But custom teams tend not to be great all-around teams, so having a custom defensive team also invites attacks. And more attacks means that hops will have to be shorter and risks will be higher.

Rock-paper-scissor design doesn't match well with a format that requires teams to simultaneously be fast on offense and intimidating on defense. Will be curious to see what effect she has on the meta in 4 months when some people have her playable.

Also, is prof. X really dominant enough in PVP that he demands a counter? I kinda feel like he has settled into a nice niche of he's great on offense and can be great defensively, but little health and can be dealt with in most matches (he's the obw of 4*-land).

Well, we got a counter to repulsor punch with Things yellow.. so having a counter to PX was inevitable.. now how long until people have her viable... won't be in time for next season, so as a stop-gap, it is quite a ways away.

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

Colognoisseur wrote:

One other thing to consider when taking into account Jean's ani-PX abilities is since all of her damage is AoE it gets through the invisibility tile, too.

I also have to agree with this direction of making direct counters to powerful characters. In the post from Casey on the Demiurge page he says flat out this is their reaction to Prof X increasing in popularity in PvP. This is the way you deal with powerful characters instead of nerfing them. I hope this works because it will make things better in the long run.

It will make this game much more interesting if you are in a PvP where you expect to see a lot of teams with a specific make-up and there is a a team which negates that advantage but yet is weak to a different strategy. It will again reward roster diversity if you are able to employ the right team for every different situation.

I agree that strong counter-plays to popular characters is good for roster diversity.

But Roster diversity is not really rewarded in this game's PVP format. Because your offensive team is also your defensive team, and because your old defensive team stays in place when you shield hop, building custom teams to take out particular opponents works great offensively. But custom teams tend not to be great all-around teams, so having a custom defensive team also invites attacks. And more attacks means that hops will have to be shorter and risks will be higher.

Rock-paper-scissor design doesn't match well with a format that requires teams to simultaneously be fast on offense and intimidating on defense. Will be curious to see what effect she has on the meta in 4 months when some people have her playable.

Also, is prof. X really dominant enough in PVP that he demands a counter? I kinda feel like he has settled into a nice niche of he's great on offense and can be great defensively, but little health and can be dealt with in most matches (he's the obw of 4*-land).

Well, we got a counter to repulsor punch with Things yellow.. so having a counter to PX was inevitable.. now how long until people have her viable... won't be in time for next season, so as a stop-gap, it is quite a ways away.

its interesting how MTG-esque this is. wonder if they'll take anything else away from that...

GrumpySmurf1002

notamutant wrote:

Can we start talking good teammates for her? So far, we have focused on her counter-abilities and as an individual character. I think she needs a single target high damage teammate, and/or a low AP teammate. At 10 and 12 AP for her two attack moves, you need someone to help out against low health targets with quick low damage, and high health targets with single target high damage.

She's a heavy hitter in two off-colors for most of 4* land (purple/green), so she'll fit in with most lineups.

3* partners are the typical strong characters - Cyclops, Cage, 3Thor, LCap, Patch, Mags should all work pretty well.

Unknown

moogles85 wrote:

Sword user wrote:

Holy cow! Those AoE damage numbers! Unless I'm mistaken, that's a new standard for damage per AP at close to 1200 damage per AP spent for purple!

Purple Max Level - Jean telekinetically grabs her enemy’s weapons, suspending them in mid-air before flinging them back towards her foes in a hail of projectiles. Deals 3888 damage to the enemy team and converts up to 6 random enemy Strike, Protect or Attack tiles to basic tiles.

Definitely the cheapest AoE dmg for the cost.
Deadpool whales is 4k dmg for 14 AP.
KK is 3.3k dmg for 12 AP.

Jean Grey's Green at max level is better than KK too - for the same cost, it does more damage AND adds 4 attack/strike/protect tiles. But I guess that's what you get for a 4* at 270 instead of 3* at 166.

BUt what about wanda? Yes she doesn't do as much damage in terms of numbers that a five turn stun on a random mob!

Unknown

I actually disagree with the approach of creating a counter as a way to counter. Plane Jane, Jean is a new 4*, its going to be a while before non-whales have her at a level that she can function as a counter point. As well, its only ONE person who is a counter. AP denial doesn't work against PX as he's 2/3 passives and his one special is low on the AP scale. Hulkbuster? Fistbuster? You can do a AP-denial team with one heavy hitter and not worry about it. During the Cyc event I used Hood/Loki/Cyc against a Fistbuster/KK team for googobs of points, and barely lost any health. You could do the same thing with a bunch of other combinations, whether it be using 'Thing', or AP-denial, or bringing your own heavy hitter like XF to the party.

Creating a single person to shut down PX, one that will be as hard as they get - to get, isn't the same as a nerf.
- Unreall

Unknown

Unreallystic wrote:

I actually disagree with the approach of creating a counter as a way to counter. Plane Jane, Jean is a new 4*, its going to be a while before non-whales have her at a level that she can function as a counter point. As well, its only ONE person who is a counter. AP denial doesn't work against PX as he's 2/3 passives and his one special is low on the AP scale. Hulkbuster? Fistbuster? You can do a AP-denial team with one heavy hitter and not worry about it. During the Cyc event I used Hood/Loki/Cyc against a Fistbuster/KK team for googobs of points, and barely lost any health. You could do the same thing with a bunch of other combinations, whether it be using 'Thing', or AP-denial, or bringing your own heavy hitter like XF to the party.

Creating a single person to shut down PX, one that will be as hard as they get - to get, isn't the same as a nerf.
- Unreall

i agree, but on the flip side, if this means D3 will actually address balance issues(spiderman needs a buff? release new spidey. Prof x too cancerous? here's Jean Grey) then I'm all for it

Unknown

She's going to be extremely tough on three star rosters. CM/Cyke maybe as the three star counter. Let's not sleep on her pairing with HB either. Near rainbow, six powers, since the overlap is on her passive. No accelerators but with all those options for heavy damage, that team won't be slow.

Buret0

cyineedsn wrote:

Side note, is anyone else afraid of the slog of a jg/loki/hood node? lol

Team up tiles will be your best friend in that match.

Buret0

notamutant wrote:

Can we start talking good teammates for her? So far, we have focused on her counter-abilities and as an individual character. I think she needs a single target high damage teammate, and/or a low AP teammate. At 10 and 12 AP for her two attack moves, you need someone to help out against low health targets with quick low damage, and high health targets with single target high damage.

Scarlet Witch seems like a no-brainer to me as her purple battery.
Cyclops for the rainbow, but not a fully active rainbow, because of the blue passives. Why are so many blue and yellow abilities passive?

PX and Jean together. Damned if you do, damned if you don't on the match 5s... too bad Blind Spot uses Purple. Bringing SW in to power them both up seems like a waste because you've left too many passives and your entire active AP use is Purple/Green, so defensively it is going to be a "pray for match 5s" while your opponent strips the board of anything useful. Maybe not a great couple.

Anyone who makes big strike tiles + Jean. AoE damage makes triple use of strike tiles as long as the whole team is still alive. Hulkbuster + Mean Jean? Active blue, red, and black. Black and blue fuel red, black also fuels the AoE damage with strike tiles. You can go fistbuster with a 3/5/5 Jean and let fist use the purple. Green production is slow. 5/5/3 Cycbuster + Jean? Carnagebuster? She's got the power to wipe the carnage tiles out and they both benefit from strike tiles. Patchbuster for that extra strike tile creation? Cagebuster for the fully active rainbow?

Hood/Thing/Jean? AP steal + damage protection for the squishy? Alternatively Loki and just keep giving them match 4s and 5s intentionally. Hopefully the crit is even strong enough to force Thing to poop out protect tiles.

Magneto is a good option. Only thing missing is a option. Maybe throw in Gamora as the third for her strike tile generation? Maybe Cage instead?

Cage is a good option. Only thing missing is an active red/blue (buster, as noted above). Goddess or Cap?

Really, the ideal teams with her are going to be:

1) PvP or PvE?
2) Who is in the enemy line-up?
3) Who is boosted?

elwhiteninja

simonsez wrote:

Colognoisseur wrote:

In the post from Casey on the Demiurge page he says flat out this is their reaction to Prof X increasing in popularity in PvP

But is that even true? I'm still not seeing him much at all. If they're looking to counter what's popular in PvP, we're going to be seeing abilities like, "(PASSIVE) Damage from all Red AP attacks is reduced to 25%" or "Creates special tile. While it exists, damage from opponent's attack tiles is reflected back to opponent"

Well we dont have a counter red but steals a attack tile a turn

SnowcaTT

wymtime wrote:

Overall at max level Jean can do significantly more damage than KK or Thor. She also has more health than both another plus.

I've only gone back a couple of pages - doesn't the health bother anyone? I thought she would be on a health par with PX - telepaths that can protect themselves early, but die a bit easily. She has more health not only than the mentioned 3*'s, but more than 4*'s like X-force!

Unknown

SnowcaTT wrote:

wymtime wrote:

Overall at max level Jean can do significantly more damage than KK or Thor. She also has more health than both another plus.

I've only gone back a couple of pages - doesn't the health bother anyone? I thought she would be on a health par with PX - telepaths that can protect themselves early, but die a bit easily. She has more health not only than the mentioned 3*'s, but more than 4*'s like X-force!

So long as XF has true healing, he isn't fair game.
- Unreall

Buret0

SnowcaTT wrote:

wymtime wrote:

Overall at max level Jean can do significantly more damage than KK or Thor. She also has more health than both another plus.

I've only gone back a couple of pages - doesn't the health bother anyone? I thought she would be on a health par with PX - telepaths that can protect themselves early, but die a bit easily. She has more health not only than the mentioned 3*'s, but more than 4*'s like X-force!

Mean Teen Jean may be a telepath, but it isn't like she's confined to a wheelchair. The bigger question is how PX has more health than more able bodied characters in the universe?

The answer is that health is not a function of in universe stamina/toughness. It is about trying to balance abilities. Of course, giving the biggest guns in the game twice as much health as XF is mostly a function of too many people abused him when he was OP, so they over nerfed.

Vhailorx

Re xforce:

The problem is that the health shift happened right around the time that xforce was nerfed. He was left out of the health shift as he obviously didn't need it pre-need.

Arguably he should be at the 13k tier now, given that his true heal power isn't great, but there is no reason to expect demirge to make a change any time soon as they don't prioritize on small tweaks like that.

Unknown

I take it back. Used her in game with the PVE season test node, and she looks more like she belongs in the Power Pack, and not the X-Men. It's admittedly a fine line, but yeah, in game, something's off.

cyineedsn

Tried her in the season test node, is it just me or is it immensely satisfying to use her purple to convert enemy countdown tiles into basic tiles... wow.

Malcrof

cyineedsn wrote:

Tried her in the season test node, is it just me or is it immensely satisfying to use her purple to convert enemy countdown tiles into basic tiles... wow.

i tried to setup the AI for a match 5 when a cd tile went off, took 4 tries but i finally got to see her passive..

Polares

I have tested her too and she is better than what I expected.

For starters purple also works with countdowns!! (Yeah i know, it was obvious but I didnt think about it until I used her power). So she is going to be really great against goons. Then she does serious damage and she can screw the other team when they make a match-5. And this last part is super important, I usually only loose PvP matches when the AI get crazy cascades but if she is in my team that will minimize the damage quite a bit!!!

So I think she is the new queen and she jumps to the throne of the game comfortably sitting next to IMHB

PS: after Ant man which I also think is really good, I am starting to think that D3 is making new 4 too powerfuls

Unknown

Hmm, I expected her health to be that of Professor X, she has quite a lot of health, that makes her a pretty well rounded character.

Marc_Spector

Buret0 wrote:

Why are so many blue and yellow abilities passive?

This. At the risk of changing the subject, I'd been wondering that myself.

I recall NonceEquitaur2 saying that we now have every combination of three colors ingame -- although, when looking at actives vs. passives, I still find the variety to be fairly lacking as of late. Seriously, how many purple/green/[passive] characters have been released this year including Jean? I'd love to have more color-variety between actives/passives for the sake of some more interesting teambuilding and theorycrafting.