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raisinbman wrote:

ayatorahxephon wrote:

Oh devs, while you are it please nerf Quicksilver, Kingpin, Kamala and Prof X cause they are really overpowered!! Oh wait, I've forgotten they are still new and need some data to proof what I've said and that you need to milk the whales 1st before nerfing and introducing even newer overpowered characters

It's the league of legends strategy - don't balance things until they're released

To be fair, for these 3 (IF too) examples, they probably made similar nerfs for other characters pre-release, it's just that they didn't pre-release character details, so we didn't know about them

Wolarsen

Seems to me that most people agree that XF was overpowered, and that most rage comes from people putting big effort into him that looks wasted now.

Maybe developer could offer a full dismantle of any considerabily nerfed character, deleting it from roster and adding full ISO refund and a certain number of sellable covers (I do not know for how much a 4* covers sells, but I would say around 500HP would be fair).

For example, a full covered character should receive 5 covers of each colour, allowing player to respec at will or scrap it for 7500HP + all ISO invested (7500HP may be too little if you purchased lots of covers, or raised other characters to get them, but I understand the game needs a certain balance and 1-2 clearly overpowered characters over a list of 50ish is no good). Chars with 3/3/4 could get 4 of each cover, something like that.

simonsez

Wolarsen wrote:

Seems to me that most people agree that XF was overpowered, and that most rage comes from people putting big effort into him that looks wasted now.

I don't mean to speak for everyone, but much like GT, I think much of the rage comes from a belief that once again, the nerf went too far.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

Wolarsen wrote:

Seems to me that most people agree that XF was overpowered, and that most rage comes from people putting big effort into him that looks wasted now.

I don't mean to speak for everyone, but much like GT, I think much of the rage comes from a belief that once again, the nerf went too far.

I'll go further and straight up admit that I speak for a very small minority, but there were several of us floating around that thought that TGT and X-Force were reasonable and effective models of 4* power and needed no changes whatsoever. Playing with and against those characters made sense as part of a different meta for the game; it was only when those characters were pressed up against 3* teams that they seemed like oppressive forces of nature. Now the 4* tier is just a bunch of big bags of meat with a quirky but under-powered grab-bag of abilities attached to them.

Doc L

I think a lot of the changes seem okay on paper, such as with IW or She-Hulk (will have to test of course to see, but certainly look better than previously). I would agree that X-Force needed a nerf to match the other 4* (or indeed, the other 4* a significant buff to match), but it seems a little too far, though will need to test it and have a look.

The health changes I think the idea is right, but the exact numbers are not. For example, 3* Black Widow definitely need more health (all Thor had to do was look at her, and she died), but the amounts have made defensively strong and tank characters slightly more redundant than before - Cyclops and Colossus are a good example of this, no need to use Colossus now, as Cyclops does more damage with only a small decrease in health.

I think one question would be, is it possible to get a 'free' respec of any characters that have been affected by skill changes? Several other games do this (Marvel Heroes is a good example of this), where any updates allow for a one-time only respec, then further respecs cost $/£. I realise that some covers were earnt, whilst some were bought, and that the technology in the app may be difficult, but it would be a great investment in time, as balancing characters as you move forwards will always be part of the game. It would probably also decrease some of the unhappiness in some players, just in them being able to alter it to what they feel is best, having spent time/money to get their characters the way they are currently.

CNash

simonsez wrote:

Wolarsen wrote:

Seems to me that most people agree that XF was overpowered, and that most rage comes from people putting big effort into him that looks wasted now.

I don't mean to speak for everyone, but much like GT, I think much of the rage comes from a belief that once again, the nerf went too far.

Also, they waited too long before nerfing him. If they'd done it a few weeks after the buff that put him into this state, with an apologetic "yeah, actually we made him a little too powerful - we're scaling him back a bit, but he's still perfectly usable", the community would've taken it far better. The ones who rushed out and bought X-Force covers would still be pissed off - just like the Iron Fist nerf - but at least we wouldn't have had the absurd situation of a character that the community and the developers both knew was overpowered and too dominant remaining in that state for... how long has it been, six months?

This is what has led to the somewhat silly conspiracy theories about Demiurge deliberately making dominant, broken or overpowered characters, letting the community spend money on them and use them for a while, then nerf them when the money starts drying up. Whether it's true or not (I'm leaning towards "not", btw), they're not helping the public perception of this issue by acting this way. The whole "post on a Friday, let the community have a tantrum over the weekend then return when the dust settles" attitude is also not helpful. There were lots of things Demiurge could've done to make this change go a lot less acrimoniously.

Unknown

Sorry, didn't read all the pages but I do want to voice my displeasure... I am sure it was said, but notice that the nerf came after the much awaited HP sale? Coincidence? or just a bald faced money grab by these greedy grubbing devs. Of course it would make sense to allow someone to do a full respec, considering the **** that green will be, but alas, these utterly clueless devs won't do that. Yea, would be nice to still keep xf, but would be nice to drop down his levels. I have him leveled higher than my other toons, and even though they SAY that doesn't affect scaling, I disagree... like a lot of people, searching for a reason to keep playing. Currently this is the least amount of effort I have ever put into a pve, and I am loving not grinding... If I get too used to it, I may just put my phone down and stop playing.

Unknown

mouser wrote:

I don't think it's solely the folks that have maxed XForces that are unhappy.

I know a considerable number of 3* players and 2*->3* transitioners that have been working six+ months towards a long term goal of accumulating enough XForce covers to play him. It looks like that golden ring may have been snatched away from them now.

^This.^ QFT. Remind me what I'm working for at this point? Money to buy roster slots for my growing stable of 1-3 cover characters? lol

DBC

OnesOwnGrief

Drummerboycroy wrote:

mouser wrote:

I don't think it's solely the folks that have maxed XForces that are unhappy.

I know a considerable number of 3* players and 2*->3* transitioners that have been working six+ months towards a long term goal of accumulating enough XForce covers to play him. It looks like that golden ring may have been snatched away from them now.

^This.^ QFT. Remind me what I'm working for at this point? Money to buy roster slots for my growing stable of 1-3 cover characters? lol

DBC

Honestly speaking, for a game like this you should be setting your own end goal. We have no idea how much longer they will continue to add more and more characters or if they will end up moving to 5 Star characters. You either cut back your play or get out when you feel like you've accomplished what you wanted out of it.

Phaserhawk

I've spoken with Miles back during the Thoress nerf, the goal for 4*'s is to be around the Nick Fury level, which is what they feel is balanced, and if you look at it that way, then they all somewhat fall into that line.

With X-Force all they did was shift the damage from green into black and yellow.

Minus the AP gain from cascades or what SS

Old

---

X-Force + SS (9 tiles)=8769 dmg

New

---

X-Force + SS(9 tiles)=8404 dmg

As you can see it's not much of a decrease, but if you use Recovery as a damage skill then the totals change

Old

---

9456 dmg

New

---

10,043 dmg

The biggest adjustment people are going to have to make is that SS won't still them anything, but it will blow up the board, create cascades, etc, I"m trying to figure out if using recovery as a damage skill will do more damage than X-Force now for a better AP ratio

Edit:

---

Cascades aside, if you opt to use Recovery as a damage skill then this is how it shapes up
3/5/5--4341 dmg
4/5/4--3866 dmg
5/5/3--3628 dmg

So this is making think about a possible change, however green would only do like 741 dmg if you go 3/5/5

simonsez

Phaserhawk wrote:

With X-Force all they did was shift the damage from green into black and yellow.

Need someone to suggest a compelling reason for this, other than the fact it will induce some incredibly gullible to people to spend to respec.

+/- 1k change to damage stats isn't relevant. Not even worth comparing. The AP steal/gain is worth infinite damage if it lets you get a chain going. Without that, I guess you could accurately say he's infinitely worse. And will you really want to use SS early in a match if it means screwing yourself out the AP you need to gather for your next attack? The best reason to go 355 now will be so you won't care that your SS has wiped out all the green from the board. My question at this point is, do the devs not understand that they keep setting up character abilities that work against each other like this, or are they just screwing with us?

Smith13

You keep breaking this game, stop, just stop.

Unknown

This X-Force nerf is an absolute load of ****. The amount of time/money spent levelling him up only for his Green AND Black to be totally ruined.

the green does HALF as much damage and the black doesn't deplete their AP nor does it drain it for yourself? Absolute ****.

GrumpySmurf1002

simonsez wrote:

And will you really want to use SS early in a match if it means screwing yourself out the AP you need to gather for your next attack?

It changes team build. Previously it was if Strongest = Green, fine, else bring partner to utilize strongest color. Now if you're using Surgical on Thoress, you want to make sure you don't have a red user in tow.

I already pulled a 4th yellow for XForce, which I'm using the second the changes go live. The cascades on his green are still what they are, but the extra heal/extra damage to me is worth more than the 4->5 green upgrade now.

The more I think about it, the less likely I think it is that XForce/Thoress get dethroned, but the gap is at least closing. Already seeing more Fury's than previous. Still no Elektra/Starlord to be found anywhere though.

AE_Fios

They make game altering changes on Fridays and then run away for the weekend so they don't have to deal with the backlash. That should give all of you some indication about how much they value community feedback. They don't care if you feel ripped off. They're going to do whatever they can to trick the Avengers 2 new user wave into spending money because the top players don't need to anymore/don't trust them anyways.

simonsez

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Still no Elektra/Starlord to be found anywhere though.

But once they add that 105 damage to her red, she'll be all over the place

TheHueyFreeman

...and I had just convinced myself to come back to play the game regularly. Back to the bench I go.

Unknown

Maybe it's just me but I've noticed at some point in the last few hours something seems to have changed serverside and I'm getting reasonable matches again.

Unknown

Xiphoen wrote:

I have to wonder where these numbers come from? Do you have a dart board that you shoot at to determine where damage numbers should be? It sure seems that way and I can't for the life of me understand why. It's like a bungie cord watching these changes take effect, particularly on the 4* level. Can you give us numbers on how often 4* Thor is used after her nerf vs. before? I can't remember the last time I saw her in PVP play and I have to wonder, along with others, what the intent of having a fourth tier in the game is now since the power level is so close to the third tier now.

There's a model called iterative and incremental processing that seems like it would work better than just randomly changing numbers and hoping that they land where you need them to be. I'm hoping you might adopt it at some point, though, you'll have to forgive my cynicism at this point that anything we say here will have any impact on your decisions.

Having a weekend to digest these changes, I wanted to take some time to expound upon this post and also details my issues.

Invisible Woman: I'm glad she's finally getting attention, and the reduced costs are great, but I'm not sure more protect tiles really helps out the game given the current issues we struggle with. How does a 200+ protect tile help us when PVE/BOP Juggernaut can come in and hit us for 6k damage? It seems like percentage reductions might've been a better option for the yellow or some other new mechanic

Elektra: Again, glad she's getting some attention, but you haven't really focused on why people don't use her. Without the ability to create helpful strike tiles, the purple is a 14 power in order to get any team benefit, given that there's a large group of character that don't generate strike tiles. Her trap tiles would be nice if they had a function if destroyed or matched, but just using it as a safety net really doesn't help us. If they could block damage to any character and had special functionality if the damage would go to elektra, that might make them more useable as well. Red is just a hidden attack tile, but there's no penalty to matching it...so someone like 2* daken can take it out incredibly easily.

XForce: There were plenty of suggestions on how to bring this character back down to a reasonable level and you chose to ignore them to, it seems, do the most harm to the character as humanly possible. Surgical Strike now hurts the player's team as much as the enemy while offering some damage and cascade potential. With the AP drain and AP generation, it was strong, so take one of those away, but taking both seems to completely destroy the ability to transform it into a simple nuke. Recovery buff is nice, but it isn't really a game changing ability, and if the tile isn't matched and xforce is currently in good health, it's just wasted AP. X-Force used to be a strong nuke with good cascade ability, now it is a glorified unstoppable crash with some damage added. It doesn't feel appropriate for a 4* character by any stretch of imagination.

Beast: Mutagenic Breakthrough is now a random "I've got a plan", which is better than the previous incarnation, but isn't going to bump Beast up to playable any time soon. Especially with the marginal changes to the other abilities. Does it strike you at all odd that the animal inside ability does more damage that xforce's max level x-force with x-force having 3 more tiles destroyed? Both abilities still require 3 matches and yet the 3*, with the proper setup, can perform better than the 4*. Yet that same ability pales in damage ability with other green abilities within the same tier. And yellow isn't really worth the time, as it seems for most "fake healing" and protect tile abilities.

Doctor Octopus: Why remove manipulation's ability to take out countdown tiles? And armed and dangerous simply isn't strong enough to justify the cost. Still won't see competitive play as far as I can tell.

She-Hulk: Blue is a nice change to avoid the loss of our own special tiles, but you removed the ability to take out enemy CD tiles. Again, was there a specific reason for this that you can tell us about? Reprieve is better than the previous version, but it seems lacking without having some sort of damage component to it as well? Maybe dealing damage based on how much AP is destroyed could help it out?

Character Health Changes: As many have stated and there's been at least one in depth analysis that I've seen (may have been more) that the changes are in place to indirectly nerf certain characters (hood, loki, etc) while providing longer matches to slog through and potentially get wiped out by. I'm not sure I understand the necessity for the change, but I wasn't sure about the necessity the last time the health was updated either.

My original statement still holds in that I'm just flabbergasted as to how you choose to affect changes within this game. Rather than step through the abilities and let it play out to see if it has the desired impact, you seem to just gut the abilities to make sure people don't play the characters anymore. These changes as well as the matchmaking changes have had a significant impact on me personally and have made me question why I continue to play this game. At the very least, I've decided to step out of the PVP for now and just play the PVE fairly casually...I know it's a drop in the bucket to you guys, but every little bit helps in regards to letting you know how it impacts your playerbase. Hope springs eternal that you might actually listen to us and help us understand not just the reason for the changes, but the reason for the magnitude. Without that understanding I'm left with the cynical viewpoint that these changes are in place so that you alienate your longtime players, so that you can do another "character changes" video rather than an actual Q&A yet again, and so that you can continue the bungie cord ride that it is clear none of us are truly enjoying.

Unknown

I think a question D3 better be asking themselves is who is honestly going to buy 4* cards anymore?
Even if a new 4* is introduced that is useful do they really think they have the trust of the community, not to completely nerf the character a few months in, anymore?

What is also somewhat bemusing is D3's complete lack of response. In case anyone's wondering yes D3 has logged in and seen the responses

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