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  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    PorkBelly wrote:
    John1123 wrote:
    But the Surgical Strike change seems reasonable to me. It does more damage to compensate for the no AP generation. I remember when the Hood got nerfed the same way and everyone was going to stop using him. Well guess what? I still use the Hood a lot and I will probably still use Xforce a lot.

    First, the increased damage is poor compensation for AP drain.

    Second, nobody was using Hood primarily for Twin Pistols. The nerf to Twin Pistols did suck but everyone uses Hood for Dormammu's Aid which they didn't touch.

    We all knew X-Force was gonna get nerfed, tho.

    You seriously thought he would keep his AP-tricks? Look at how D3 has been cracking down on AP-abusers, even thru boosts.

    I'd just be glad he wasn't turned into Spider-man or Sentry RIP
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    raisinbman wrote:
    We all knew X-Force was gonna get nerfed, tho.

    You seriously thought he would keep his AP-tricks? Look at how D3 has been cracking down on AP-abusers, even thru boosts.

    I'd just be glad he wasn't turned into Spider-man or Sentry RIP

    I think most ppl thought he would lose his AP tricks (which TBH is the thing that made him amazing much more so than his damage numbers (not that they weren't good ofc)). What wasn't expected was a 40% ish nerf on his green as well (at least with respect to expected damage). Personally I thought something similar to the SS changes and green getting +2 AP (or +1 with the boost changes would be enough) to require an additional match to get it going. Maybe a 750-ish damage hit, maybe not needed would be about right, which OFC meant the nerf would be a lot harsher on prior record.

    I can only assume Demiurge rethought their opinion of the value of tile destruction (since that was the charge tile based reasoning for hammering on 4Thor) BUT only applied the new formula to a single character rather than every tile destroying character..... well actually I assume they aren't good at balancing characters and they massively undervalue the effort their players put into obtaiining heroes from the 4* tier by making it a virtual continuation of the 3* tier instead but those are separate issues icon_e_smile.gif
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Dauthi wrote:
    That is some great nit-picking, but the truth is it will do 2k less damage. You haven't AP buffed green for X-Force and one shotted Hood second/third turn before? It was a pretty common practice. You are extremely likely to get at least a single match after board shakeup like his.

    Also, are you sure it only counts his colors (which isn't just green) towards tile destruction? It was my assumption it still calculates other's colors too, it would be a lot of work to code it so that it recalculates all the match damage based on his values only despite the tiles being destroyed having other character's emblems.

    You may be right, and his average damage was 4.8k damage per X-Force. I apoligize everyone, I may be wrong and he will do 2.8k average damage not 3k icon_e_wink.gif

    It 100% only does damage based on XF's color damage. Purple tiles do 11 not whatever you high purple is.

    I can't speak to your experience obviously, but my experience with XF is that he did ~4500 damage while sometimes doing like 6000 with cascades of doom.

    Now he will do ~2500 damage with possible 4000 with cascades of doom. That's a grade 3* power (See Hulk, Groot, Storm), not 4*, which makes it terrible on a 4* frame.
  • Arondite
    Arondite Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Dauthi wrote:
    Arondite wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:
    Arondite wrote:
    Everyone griping is still going to end up using him not because they have him, but because he is still a solid character.

    1360 + (15 x 42.5) = 3K?

    Hmmm..

    Hmm...

    Old
    MAX LV 5: Deals 3441 damage and destroys 15 tiles in 3 3x3 X-Shaped patterns

    New

    MAX LV 5: Deals 1360 damage and destroys 15 tiles in 3 3x3 X-Shaped patterns

    Now if we use math we can see it is only a 2k decrease in base damage. So if he currently does 5k damage, then we minus 2k.. hmm...

    Except he usually won't do 5K currently, hmmm. That is, unless you're the lucky sort that's ripping 15 Green Tiles every single time (lol). For instance, in your examples, if every one of the 15 tiles was green somehow, you'd be getting 1,230 Bonus damage from the 15 destroyed tiles. (15 x 82). That's, at absolute most 4,671 damage before cascades (and assuming some godlike board that has 15 green tiles positioned exactly right for you to hit them all). So tell me, when the old damage cap before cascades was 4,671, how were you managing to average 5k+ before cascades?

    Also it's called "subtracting" 2k, Not "minusing" 2K.

    Get math'd, kid.

    That is an English correction, not math icon_e_wink.gif

    That is some great nit-picking, but the truth is it will do 2k less damage. You haven't AP buffed green for X-Force and one shotted Hood second/third turn before? It was a pretty common practice. You are extremely likely to get at least a single match after board shakeup like his.

    Also, are you sure it only counts his colors (which isn't just green) towards tile destruction? It was my assumption it still calculates other's colors too, it would be a lot of work to code it so that it recalculates all the match damage based on his values only despite the tiles being destroyed having other character's emblems.

    You may be right, and his average damage was 4.8k damage per X-Force. I apoligize everyone, I may be wrong and he will do 2.8k average damage not 3k icon_e_wink.gif[/quote]

    2,590 Cap before cascades, average of 1,997.5 Before cascades.

    Neither of those numbers is 2,800.

    Please, please learn math.
  • Dauthi
    Dauthi Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    edited April 2015
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    Lerysh wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:
    That is some great nit-picking, but the truth is it will do 2k less damage. You haven't AP buffed green for X-Force and one shotted Hood second/third turn before? It was a pretty common practice. You are extremely likely to get at least a single match after board shakeup like his.

    Also, are you sure it only counts his colors (which isn't just green) towards tile destruction? It was my assumption it still calculates other's colors too, it would be a lot of work to code it so that it recalculates all the match damage based on his values only despite the tiles being destroyed having other character's emblems.

    You may be right, and his average damage was 4.8k damage per X-Force. I apoligize everyone, I may be wrong and he will do 2.8k average damage not 3k icon_e_wink.gif

    It 100% only does damage based on XF's color damage. Purple tiles do 11 not whatever you high purple is.

    I can't speak to your experience obviously, but my experience with XF is that he did ~4500 damage while sometimes doing like 6000 with cascades of doom.

    Now he will do ~2500 damage with possible 4000 with cascades of doom. That's a grade 3* power (See Hulk, Groot, Storm), not 4*, which makes it terrible on a 4* frame.

    I use a 250 Xforce, and it typically did 4.6k damage average. I figured if he leveled up more it would be around 4.8.

    I'll use your numbers, correct me if im wrong:

    X-Force
    2.5k damage
    15 tiles destroyed
    8 ap

    Rocket&Groot
    2.4k damage
    13 tiles destroyed
    10 ap

    Mohawk

    0 damage ----14 tile destruction (ap gained)
    10 ap

    Hulk

    1200 damage
    13 tiles destroyed
    10 ap

    Xforce will beat all of these in every category.
  • grunth13
    grunth13 Posts: 608 Critical Contributor
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    raisinbman wrote:
    PorkBelly wrote:
    John1123 wrote:
    But the Surgical Strike change seems reasonable to me. It does more damage to compensate for the no AP generation. I remember when the Hood got nerfed the same way and everyone was going to stop using him. Well guess what? I still use the Hood a lot and I will probably still use Xforce a lot.

    First, the increased damage is poor compensation for AP drain.

    Second, nobody was using Hood primarily for Twin Pistols. The nerf to Twin Pistols did suck but everyone uses Hood for Dormammu's Aid which they didn't touch.

    We all knew X-Force was gonna get nerfed, tho.

    You seriously thought he would keep his AP-tricks? Look at how D3 has been cracking down on AP-abusers, even thru boosts.

    I'd just be glad he wasn't turned into Spider-man or Sentry RIP

    They just gave she hulk the ultimate ap abusing trick by letting her drain 2 stacks of your ap to 0 for 6 green. I don't think the devs care about ap abusers, it's more about the people that were most likely to buy XF have already bought him...now on to the next big thing.
  • grunth13
    grunth13 Posts: 608 Critical Contributor
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    Dauthi wrote:
    Lerysh wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:
    That is some great nit-picking, but the truth is it will do 2k less damage. You haven't AP buffed green for X-Force and one shotted Hood second/third turn before? It was a pretty common practice. You are extremely likely to get at least a single match after board shakeup like his.

    Also, are you sure it only counts his colors (which isn't just green) towards tile destruction? It was my assumption it still calculates other's colors too, it would be a lot of work to code it so that it recalculates all the match damage based on his values only despite the tiles being destroyed having other character's emblems.

    You may be right, and his average damage was 4.8k damage per X-Force. I apoligize everyone, I may be wrong and he will do 2.8k average damage not 3k icon_e_wink.gif

    It 100% only does damage based on XF's color damage. Purple tiles do 11 not whatever you high purple is.

    I can't speak to your experience obviously, but my experience with XF is that he did ~4500 damage while sometimes doing like 6000 with cascades of doom.

    Now he will do ~2500 damage with possible 4000 with cascades of doom. That's a grade 3* power (See Hulk, Groot, Storm), not 4*, which makes it terrible on a 4* frame.

    I use a 250 Xforce, and it typically did 4.6k damage average. I figured if he leveled up more it would be around 4.8.

    I'll use your numbers, correct me if im wrong. Ill bold all the values that are less than XForce:

    X-Force
    2.5k damage
    27 tiles destroyed
    8 ap

    Rocket&Groot
    2.4k damage
    13 tiles destroyed
    10 ap

    Mohawk

    0 damage ----14 tile destruction (ap gained)
    10 ap

    Hulk

    1200 damage
    13 tiles destroyed
    10 ap

    Xforce will beat all of these in every category.


    But it cost you 2 to 3 times the amount to get your XF to 250 them to get the other characters to 166.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Dauthi wrote:
    X-Force
    2.5k damage
    27 tiles destroyed
    8 ap
    27?! How can make subjective arguments when you're this far off on the factual elements of what the skill does?
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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    grunth13 wrote:
    They just gave she hulk the ultimate ap abusing trick by letting her drain 2 stacks of your ap to 0 for 6 green. I don't think the devs care about ap abusers
    The difference is that She Hulk's green doesn't help you win any faster, because you're not getting any AP. The devs want battles to be longer. She Hulk's green fits in with that, Surgical Strike doesn't.
  • Dauthi
    Dauthi Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    edited April 2015
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    simonsez wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:
    X-Force
    2.5k damage
    27 tiles destroyed
    8 ap
    27?! How can make subjective arguments when you're this far off on the factual elements of what the skill does?

    Settle down, I wrote it in haste. You can simply note the correction instead of making personal attacks. If I didn't understand the skill it would be subjective, I think you meant objective. People make mistakes though, right?
    grunth13 wrote:

    But it cost you 2 to 3 times the amount to get your XF to 250 them to get the other characters to 166.

    That doesn't matter if it still gives you an edge.
  • Arondite
    Arondite Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Dauthi wrote:
    Lerysh wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:
    That is some great nit-picking, but the truth is it will do 2k less damage. You haven't AP buffed green for X-Force and one shotted Hood second/third turn before? It was a pretty common practice. You are extremely likely to get at least a single match after board shakeup like his.

    Also, are you sure it only counts his colors (which isn't just green) towards tile destruction? It was my assumption it still calculates other's colors too, it would be a lot of work to code it so that it recalculates all the match damage based on his values only despite the tiles being destroyed having other character's emblems.

    You may be right, and his average damage was 4.8k damage per X-Force. I apoligize everyone, I may be wrong and he will do 2.8k average damage not 3k icon_e_wink.gif

    It 100% only does damage based on XF's color damage. Purple tiles do 11 not whatever you high purple is.

    I can't speak to your experience obviously, but my experience with XF is that he did ~4500 damage while sometimes doing like 6000 with cascades of doom.

    Now he will do ~2500 damage with possible 4000 with cascades of doom. That's a grade 3* power (See Hulk, Groot, Storm), not 4*, which makes it terrible on a 4* frame.

    I use a 250 Xforce, and it typically did 4.6k damage average. I figured if he leveled up more it would be around 4.8.

    I'll use your numbers, correct me if im wrong. Ill bold all the values that are less than XForce:

    X-Force
    2.0k damage(Average)
    15 tiles destroyed
    8 ap

    Rocket&Groot
    2.4k damage
    13 tiles destroyed
    10 ap

    Mohawk

    0 damage ----14 tile destruction (ap gained)
    10 ap

    Hulk

    1200 damage
    13 tiles destroyed
    10 ap

    Xforce will beat all of these in every category.


    Let's call it what it is, shall we
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Dauthi wrote:
    Settle down, I wrote it in haste. You can simply note the correction instead of making personal attacks. If I didn't understand the skill it would be subjective, I think you meant objective.
    No, I meant what i said... it's like saying, subjectively, "I don't like pizza because the raisins get stuck in my teeth". This person shouldn't be offering subjective opinions about pizza, because they don't seem to know what the components of a pizza are.

    And I think we're setting a pretty low bar on what constitutes a "personal attack", if that sounded like one.
  • M C K
    M C K Posts: 96 Match Maker
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    I don't really feel like getting involved in all the fighting. Can somebody please tell me the expected date that XF will be buffed again so he's great?

    And maybe could we spring for one of those cones they put on dogs after surgery?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    M C K wrote:
    I don't really feel like getting involved in all the fighting. Can somebody please tell me the expected date that XF will be buffed again so he's great?

    And maybe could we spring for one of those cones they put on dogs after surgery?

    Yeah, X-Force will be buffed into Ragnarok icon_twisted.gif
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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    M C K wrote:
    Can somebody please tell me the expected date that XF will be buffed again so he's great?
    Next February 30th...
  • grunth13
    grunth13 Posts: 608 Critical Contributor
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    simonsez wrote:
    grunth13 wrote:
    They just gave she hulk the ultimate ap abusing trick by letting her drain 2 stacks of your ap to 0 for 6 green. I don't think the devs care about ap abusers
    The difference is that She Hulk's green doesn't help you win any faster, because you're not getting any AP. The devs want battles to be longer. She Hulk's green fits in with that, Surgical Strike doesn't.

    Them take away the ap generation, leave the ap reduction and leave the rest of the character alone
  • grunth13
    grunth13 Posts: 608 Critical Contributor
    Options
    simonsez wrote:
    grunth13 wrote:
    They just gave she hulk the ultimate ap abusing trick by letting her drain 2 stacks of your ap to 0 for 6 green. I don't think the devs care about ap abusers
    The difference is that She Hulk's green doesn't help you win any faster, because you're not getting any AP. The devs want battles to be longer. She Hulk's green fits in with that, Surgical Strike doesn't.

    Them take away the ap generation, leave the ap reduction and leave the rest of the character alone.
  • Dauthi
    Dauthi Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
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    simonsez wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:
    Settle down, I wrote it in haste. You can simply note the correction instead of making personal attacks. If I didn't understand the skill it would be subjective, I think you meant objective.
    No, I meant what i said... it's like saying, subjectively, "I don't like pizza because the raisins get stuck in my teeth". This person shouldn't be offering subjective opinions about pizza, because they don't seem to know what the components of a pizza are.

    And I think we're setting a pretty low bar on what constitutes a "personal attack", if that sounded like one.

    Subjective is that very definition. It is what you think and doesn't have to consist of facts. Thus when I was wrong about that ability it is much more subjective (relative to what I believe) vs what it actually is (objective).

    Subjective - existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective ). pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual

    Objective - not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

    It wasn't necessary to add your last bit in order to correct my mistake, I always add "correct me if i'm wrong' in hope others will correct me constructively. It is low on the bar of personal attacks, but I would rather nip it in the bud now.
  • grunth13
    grunth13 Posts: 608 Critical Contributor
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    Dauthi wrote:
    simonsez wrote:
    Dauthi wrote:
    X-Force
    2.5k damage
    27 tiles destroyed
    8 ap
    27?! How can make subjective arguments when you're this far off on the factual elements of what the skill does?

    Settle down, I wrote it in haste. You can simply note the correction instead of making personal attacks. If I didn't understand the skill it would be subjective, I think you meant objective. People make mistakes though, right?
    grunth13 wrote:

    But it cost you 2 to 3 times the amount to get your XF to 250 them to get the other characters to 166.

    That doesn't matter if it still gives you an edge.



    It does for some if they paid for him as a 4 star. If the devs just make everyone a 3 star like street fighter or mortal combat, then it doesn't matter.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    fmftint wrote:
    15 pages and I still haven't read ONE reason why a single character being the best answer for every node is good for the game.
    What I have seen are emotional reactions and invalid analogies
    XF isn't the best answer to every node, but he is part of my team 90% of the time. You didn't read a reason because the one reason everyone BOUGHT his covers is really simple. This isn't a complex and strategic game. It is a dumb match-3 game which also require from you to spend many hours each day matching tiles. For this reason, speed is everything if you want to have free time for anything else and the fastest way to win is to use quick abilities that deal a lot of damage. Occasionally, abilities that deal with tiles come useful, but they are still inferior to abilities in the range of 6-9AP that hit hard. Defense tiles help you keep your heroes alive for longer, but they don't win the game faster and in pvp staying unshielded for 5-10 minutes when you are 800+ is a suicide. XF was fine for the most part because he isn't a 3* character. It took either a lot of grinding or a lot of money for players to get his covers and a ton of ISO to level so you expect from him to be better than the 3*. If getting 4* doesn't make your life easier, then why bother at all?

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