*** Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon) ***

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Comments

  • WilliamK99 wrote:
    Well it didnt take long for the nerf police to come out in force...Why complain? It's not like it is an unlevel playing field everyone has the opportunity to level Iron Fist and if you choose not to, it's on you, not the game...
    Classic self defensive response.

    "You can have him too, so he isn't overpowered."

    People used the same defense for Ragnarok, Spider man, Magneto and Sentry.

    Normally I would go into a rant about the logistics of why having a transcendentally more powerful character only makes a game worse.

    But IF is so blatantly overpowered that...it speaks for itself.

    I don't need to justify why I think IF is OP and needs to be nerfed.

    IF does that for me merely by existing.
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
    WilliamK99 wrote:
    Well it didnt take long for the nerf police to come out in force...Why complain? It's not like it is an unlevel playing field everyone has the opportunity to level Iron Fist and if you choose not to, it's on you, not the game...

    I for one, would like a 3* metagame where all characters are created equal. A 3* metagame where IF / LazyThor / Hood do not obsolete every other character in the game, and where underrepresented characters such as Punisher, Torch, etc can have their moment in the spotlight as well. While we can't make this a reality for all characters (looking at you Psylocke), 3* people should be able to choose between more characters other than Patch / Hulk, LThor / Support, + IF / BP and have that be optimal. I've always felt like "who cares" is an incredibly lazy response: it seems silly to just leave broken characters as is when you could actually have varied team compositions be viable.
    It's hard to fix old characters when the devs put all resources into new characters every 2 weeks
  • lokiagentofhotness
    lokiagentofhotness Posts: 192 Tile Toppler
    WilliamK99 wrote:
    Well it didnt take long for the nerf police to come out in force...Why complain? It's not like it is an unlevel playing field everyone has the opportunity to level Iron Fist and if you choose not to, it's on you, not the game...

    I for one, would like a 3* metagame where all characters are created equal. A 3* metagame where IF / LazyThor / Hood do not obsolete every other character in the game, and where underrepresented characters such as Punisher, Torch, etc can have their moment in the spotlight as well. While we can't make this a reality for all characters (looking at you Psylocke), 3* people should be able to choose between more characters other than Patch / Hulk, LThor / Support, + IF / BP and have that be optimal. I've always felt like "who cares" is an incredibly lazy response: it seems silly to just leave broken characters as is when you could actually have varied team compositions be viable.

    The 3* (or 4*) metagame is always going to be about speed unless we change the entire structure of how PVP works. I like playing around with other combos, but that's only in PVE when I can afford to take 5 min to play a game, or the lower levels of SSIM. When you start to reach the point where you're a juicy target, there's no way you choose any team that's not the fastest offensively and (hopefully) also decent defensively. But offensive ability > defensive - which is why Thoress.

    Let them do away with you losing points when attacked then. But then you'd just have another PVE, where you grind and grind to the end.

    It's just - at this point people complain when characters released are underpowered and can't compete with the 4stars. Then they release a character like Iron Fist (which complements Luke Cage as much as he does XF), and people complain he's OP. These are 3stars, not 4stars. You should be able to at least get 5 covers during the first PVE release, and a couple more during the PVP. So it should be easy to cover him fully by next season. Unlike say trying to get a fully covered Thoress now.
  • WilliamK99 wrote:
    Well it didnt take long for the nerf police to come out in force...Why complain? It's not like it is an unlevel playing field everyone has the opportunity to level Iron Fist and if you choose not to, it's on you, not the game...

    Even pretending that everyone has the same opportunities, it's still boring as heck if the meta ends up being nothing but IF/X-Force. There's always going to be top and bottom tier characters, but the closer the separation between the two, the more options are available and the more fun everyone has. I mean, I'm cool with waiting a few weeks to see how IF plays out, but I hope the devs have a nerf cannon aimed on IF's purple in case it ends poorly.
  • PuceMoose
    PuceMoose Posts: 1,445 Chairperson of the Boards
    How long did it take them to nerf Sentry after his release? (Real question, not rhetorical - I can't remember) I'll be interested to see if it's a similar interval with Iron Fist.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2015
    WilliamK99 wrote:
    Well it didnt take long for the nerf police to come out in force...Why complain? It's not like it is an unlevel playing field everyone has the opportunity to level Iron Fist and if you choose not to, it's on you, not the game...

    I for one, would like a 3* metagame where all characters are created equal. A 3* metagame where IF / LazyThor / Hood do not obsolete every other character in the game, and where underrepresented characters such as Punisher, Torch, etc can have their moment in the spotlight as well. While we can't make this a reality for all characters (looking at you Psylocke), 3* people should be able to choose between more characters other than Patch / Hulk, LThor / Support, + IF / BP and have that be optimal. I've always felt like "who cares" is an incredibly lazy response: it seems silly to just leave broken characters as is when you could actually have varied team compositions be viable.

    The 3* (or 4*) metagame is always going to be about speed unless we change the entire structure of how PVP works. I like playing around with other combos, but that's only in PVE when I can afford to take 5 min to play a game, or the lower levels of SSIM. When you start to reach the point where you're a juicy target, there's no way you choose any team that's not the fastest offensively and (hopefully) also decent defensively. But offensive ability > defensive - which is why Thoress.

    Let them do away with you losing points when attacked then. But then you'd just have another PVE, where you grind and grind to the end.

    It's just - at this point people complain when characters released are underpowered and can't compete with the 4stars. Then they release a character like Iron Fist (which complements Luke Cage as much as he does XF), and people complain he's OP. These are 3stars, not 4stars. You should be able to at least get 5 covers during the first PVE release, and a couple more during the PVP. So it should be easy to cover him fully by next season. Unlike say trying to get a fully covered Thoress now.

    If you were talking about shield sim, then you'd be 100% correct. There's always going to be one dominant team, and this is going to make it so that its pointless to run everything else. However, standard PvPs have a featured hero that you are forced to use. This means that the characters don't have to be 100% balanced, they just need to be balanced enough so that the featured character would sway you towards one character over another. Theoretical team diversity can exist if the game is balanced because in a balanced game, it wouldn't make any sense to use LazyThor when Sentry is the featured character.

    An easy example is the 4* metagame. Suppose the featured character is LazyCap. If the 4* characters were balanced enough, Cap being mainly red and blue would sway you to not use 4or, since, well, the two conflict directly in terms of color and everything. You could do something like run Starlord instead because his main color is purple and conflicts much less with LCap. This was a very real possibility in the 3* meta: we were getting to a point with Doom / Cage / etc that if the main character was mainly yellow green such as Sentry, then it could have been optimal to run characters like Doom over LazyThor because of color conflicts. But when a couple of characters are so above the curve that there is no balance, the featured will always be completely useless, and BP / IF will always be strictly better than any team that tries to synergize with the featured hero or at least not completely conflict.

    That is my grand vision of a balanced metagame and the benefits that it could have, but you know, say the word nerf and people lose their tinykitty so it's probably not happening.
  • Even if Iron Fist has no purple skill he'd still complete skew the PvP meta game because of his unavoidable black attack. I mean okay so we're in this fantasy land where your games last on average of 15 turns and your opponent obviously never get any of their moves off, so they're expected to do only match damage which is about 200 per turn or 3000 total. Now add in Iron Fist's black and that number goes up to about 8000 damage total taken and this somehow totally doesn't change how you approach the game even in this hypothetical fantasy land scenario where you don't have to worry about ANY AP consuming moves? And of course IF has an incredible AP accelerator and is likely to do at least 1K damage with just the conversion (if it created any crit that alone will do close to 1K on a match 3 because IF/X Force have 4.5X/4X crit mod). His black alone is game changing, and probably will get nerfed for the same reason Daken get nerfed and Daken was someone who usually didn't win games but just made sure your opponents bleed for it. IF is going to make you bleed and you've a pretty good chance of losing outright if he beats you to purple first. He could have only black as his skill and he'd still redefine how PvP is played due to his incredible attrition damage, and black isn't even his best skill!

    By the way by 'game-changing' I'm not necessarily making a judgment on the character's power. You can beat pre nerf Daken fairly reliably because he doesn't quite do enough damage to win but it completely changes who you should use (guys who can true heal, or Magneto, or Sentry) because it's completely unsustainable to fight it out with Daken when he piles up 500+ match damage quickly, and Iron Fist's black is even harder, if not outright impossible, to avoid compared to Phermone Rage.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    WilliamK99 wrote:
    WilliamK99 wrote:
    Well it didnt take long for the nerf police to come out in force...Why complain? It's not like it is an unlevel playing field everyone has the opportunity to level Iron Fist and if you choose not to, it's on you, not the game...

    I for one, would like a 3* metagame where all characters are created equal. A 3* metagame where IF / LazyThor / Hood do not obsolete every other character in the game, and where underrepresented characters such as Punisher, Torch, etc can have their moment in the spotlight as well. While we can't make this a reality for all characters (looking at you Psylocke), 3* people should be able to choose between more characters other than Patch / Hulk, LThor / Support, + IF / BP and have that be optimal. I've always felt like "who cares" is an incredibly lazy response: it seems silly to just leave broken characters as is when you could actually have varied team compositions be viable.

    I have never seen a game reach the type of balance you describe if you know of one please let me know I'd love to play it...

    Haha, most competitive games are balanced to this degree right? League of Legends has a champion pool of like 5 or so characters that are considered reasonable picks for each role, most fighting games such as Street Fighter have at least 30% of their roster be competitive, so on and so forth.
  • GuntherBlobel
    GuntherBlobel Posts: 987 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2015
    WilliamK99 wrote:
    Well it didnt take long for the nerf police to come out in force...Why complain? It's not like it is an unlevel playing field everyone has the opportunity to level Iron Fist and if you choose not to, it's on you, not the game...
    NP has nailed the response to this, but I just wanted to add that I'm not actually calling for a nerf, at least not because I'm sick of playing against IF or any of the typical reasons that people call for nerfs.

    But I have played long enough to know how this will most likely end. And when IF is eventually nerfed (because the community will beg for it), there's a really good chance that no one will be happy with the end result. Whether I buy IF covers now, or slowly earn them over time, I will be extremely unhappy if another character gets the Sentry/Spidey treatment.
  • konannfriends
    konannfriends Posts: 246 Tile Toppler
    WilliamK99 wrote:
    WilliamK99 wrote:
    Well it didnt take long for the nerf police to come out in force...Why complain? It's not like it is an unlevel playing field everyone has the opportunity to level Iron Fist and if you choose not to, it's on you, not the game...

    I for one, would like a 3* metagame where all characters are created equal. A 3* metagame where IF / LazyThor / Hood do not obsolete every other character in the game, and where underrepresented characters such as Punisher, Torch, etc can have their moment in the spotlight as well. While we can't make this a reality for all characters (looking at you Psylocke), 3* people should be able to choose between more characters other than Patch / Hulk, LThor / Support, + IF / BP and have that be optimal. I've always felt like "who cares" is an incredibly lazy response: it seems silly to just leave broken characters as is when you could actually have varied team compositions be viable.

    I have never seen a game reach the type of balance you describe if you know of one please let me know I'd love to play it...

    Haha, most competitive games are balanced to this degree right? League of Legends has a champion pool of like 5 or so characters that are considered reasonable picks for each role, most fighting games such as Street Fighter have at least 30% of their roster be competitive, so on and so forth.

    with any game there is always going to be top tier an d low tier, i just wish that the devs wouls do a lirrle more damage control so people cant be pissed. like before releasing a character having a disclaimer that the character can be changed whever neccesary.

    i think all characters have there own strengths and weakneses* but i do think some characters can be buffed a bit to make the a bit more of a challenge, such as Gammora, her black is terrible and should not cost 12 ap, it should be 10ap, Storm "sigh" i think the Devs say they are done with her. Colosus, all he needs is his red damage to be incresased. She hulk isnt that bad imo because of her health, but her red could have some sort of effect like stuning the enemy team for 1 turn. i could go on.

    Characters like squirell Girl, Hulk, Patch and Lazy daken are could examples of balanced characters

    Sentry still in his wheelchair?


    sorry about all of the spelling errors
  • Just finished IF PVP.

    I can honestly say, he may ruin the entire game.

    There's very little chance that he'll ever be properly balanced.

    Check out this cascade. 5 purple AP.

    11035740_10153195772322650_3904574057114742060_n.jpg?oh=0038555e7b2c3215b29ce804651432fc&oe=557DF8F8
  • SodaPopinski
    SodaPopinski Posts: 59 Match Maker
    IMO IF helps out the 3* rostered teams more so then the people who have dominant 4*s. Will the people that place in the top ranks already benefit much from IF? Or will IF help to close the gap more against those top players by providing a vehicle for these 3* black users to take down the 4*s easier?

    This was a point I made earlier when you realize what cyclofist will be together compared to 4*s. Two in a row that have great synergy and creat massive damage. The threshold on the purple for creating black compared to damage.

    They can make 3* characters more readily available so more 3* rosters can compete with the 4*s.

    Just a simple conspiracy theory.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    I mean no one has anything to worry about as long as the nerf is done right. I think something like nerfing purple to 7 or 8 ap and buffing damage a little bit would come a long way towards a balanced IF. It's just that Demiurge has messed up most nerfs in the past leading to massive PTSD.
  • I mean no one has anything to worry about as long as the nerf is done right. I think something like nerfing purple to 7 or 8 ap and buffing damage a little bit would come a long way towards a balanced IF. It's just that Demiurge has messed up most nerfs in the past leading to massive PTSD.
    You really think 7 or 8 is enough?

    I was thinking more along the lines of 10. It needs to be a 4 matcher.

    The impact is just way too high.
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    onimus wrote:
    I mean no one has anything to worry about as long as the nerf is done right. I think something like nerfing purple to 7 or 8 ap and buffing damage a little bit would come a long way towards a balanced IF. It's just that Demiurge has messed up most nerfs in the past leading to massive PTSD.
    You really think 7 or 8 is enough?

    I was thinking more along the lines of 10. It needs to be a 4 matcher.

    The impact is just way too high.

    Technopathic Strike turns specific tiles to black (meaning you better predict the cascades), and only costs 9. Nobody complains about it's overwhelming imbalance.
  • onimus wrote:
    I mean no one has anything to worry about as long as the nerf is done right. I think something like nerfing purple to 7 or 8 ap and buffing damage a little bit would come a long way towards a balanced IF. It's just that Demiurge has messed up most nerfs in the past leading to massive PTSD.
    You really think 7 or 8 is enough?

    I was thinking more along the lines of 10. It needs to be a 4 matcher.

    The impact is just way too high.

    Technopathic Strike turns specific tiles to black (meaning you better predict the cascades), and only costs 9. Nobody complains about it's overwhelming imbalance.
    It also limits where the cascades can go.

    Farming 9 blue may not leave a lot of blue left on the board.

    IF purple cannot be limited by a bad board.
  • I know that anytime d3 does literally anything the forum is full of "durr, did they even PLAYTEST this??"

    but that said... durr, did they even PLAYTEST this??
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    onimus wrote:
    I mean no one has anything to worry about as long as the nerf is done right. I think something like nerfing purple to 7 or 8 ap and buffing damage a little bit would come a long way towards a balanced IF. It's just that Demiurge has messed up most nerfs in the past leading to massive PTSD.
    You really think 7 or 8 is enough?

    I was thinking more along the lines of 10. It needs to be a 4 matcher.

    The impact is just way too high.

    Technopathic Strike turns specific tiles to black (meaning you better predict the cascades), and only costs 9. Nobody complains about it's overwhelming imbalance.

    You know what is complained about being imbalanced though? Thunder Strike. Well, IFs purple is essentially a thunder strike that costs 5 AP....
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,476 Chairperson of the Boards
    the king of the 3*s as he is now.
    They can make 3* characters more readily available so more 3* rosters can compete with the 4*s.
    Just a simple conspiracy theory.

    I'll throw out a conspiracy theory - they have to release OP 3*'s. It's not so 3* can compete with 4* - they shouldn't.

    It's so they can sell HP, so they can sell covers. If they release a great 4* it's only to a very small % of the community, and only one cover. Then it's grind to 1K+ to get the other colors (also a small percent), or wait for the seasons to complete your colors (and now they don't have enough seasons to give you all the colors thanks to 4* release schedule)....

    When they release OP 4*, the 3*'s complain and few can buy the covers (hard to acquire) - and it may be cost prohibitive : 2500 x 9 or so, assuming you get one of each color cover and two of the release in the PVP.

    BUT when they release OP 3*, it is easy for everyone to get most of the covers [this theory would work better if they released ALL the colors - but DPD will get them to everyone pretty quickly...it actually makes me wonder if this isn't a reason for it to exist]. Then if a character truly is "king of the 3*'s" - and I think he is - everyone has the choice: lose to the best 3* for six months until he's nerfed, or buy the covers, win for six months, and complain about the nerf when it happens.

    Release OP 3*, and almost everyone can get it - easier to acquire - and the cost to buy the rest isn't ridiculous, you'll probably have 2/1/4 before to long. As the company, just make sure the good cover is the one the players don't get (cough Groot yellow, Cyclops red, IF purple, and several other examples cough).

    How many tokens or HP do you think they were selling when on the run of Colossus/She-Hulk/Oc/SG? I bet it's gone up considerably with Cage/Cyclops/IF!