*** Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon) ***

1171820222329

Comments

  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,642 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    Polares wrote:
    Right now, what I want is the devs acknowledging this debate, and I want them to tell us if IF is going to be nerfed or not. TELL US NOW.

    I don't want to spend iso or even HP into him, and then devs nerfing him into oblivion in less than a month.

    Looking at the character, his skills are not broken, it's the cost or lack of cost that's the problem.

    IF's Green--Is actually underpowered IMO, I would like to see some of the black strength go into here.
    IF's Purple--the second half, 12 black + 5 purple to do 4K is actually fine, it's the 5AP for 9 Black that is the big problem. If the thought was to create a weird 10AP 4K damage skill they failed, A simple fix could be a Psylocke/Nick Fury hybrid type clause.

    My fix. Have this cost 10 AP, then for every 2 black AP you have it costs 1 less purple. That way if you boosted it still costs 6 purple
    Iron Fist of K'un-Lun - 10 AP
    Daniel Rand focuses his chi to make his fist like a thing unto iron and strikes. For every 2 Black AP the team has (rounded down), this skill costs 1 less purple AP (no less than 5), converts 5 basic tiles to Black. If the team has 12 or more Black AP, deals 498 damage instead.


    IF's Black--the skill is fine, the damage is waaaaaayyy too high. Again I would shift some of the power from this to green.

    The simplest fix would be to just switch the costs of his purple and green and lower the attack tile damage on black. he'd still be overly strong but nothing more than what we are used to.

    I know there is a big number of solutions, some may even argue that they want him to remain the same, but that is not the most important for me right now. There is a lot of people saying he is OP, so, what I don't want is to invest resources into him and then 'loose' them when he is being nerfed. This is why I would like devs acknowledging this debate and giving us some kind of answer to 'do you think he is op? are you going to nerf him right now?' as they did with BP ...
  • Even if on defense the AI can't play him optimally, I am convinced he is broken. Fist Bump was also not a good event for XF because, unless I am mistaken, IF being in the middle had priority over XF in the use of green AP. Also the AI rarely uses his abilities in the order a player would, which is use purple, then use green and finally use another player's black.

    If the player is patient and waits until he gets to 10 purple AP, the game is over with XF in your team. Adding 18 black tiles to a board that already has 8-10 black, means you will get, at worst, 2 critical and that alone may be enough to knock out several characters with health on the low side. If you also have XF in your team, this is the time for his green (it is very common to get the necessary green after the cascades caused by IF's purple) and black to take down another enemy and if the last enemy has green as his strongest color, you may squeeze another XF green if the enemy team has enough AP for you to steal.

    It's actually ridiculous if you get the tiniest bit of luck in the opening board. My IF had only 1 purple after I reached 900 and he was the MVP in one of my last games. With a ready 5-match waiting me in the opening board, and after I used his purple twice in a row, XF did his claw dance and the game ended a few turns later. And all this just from his purple. Wait until a maxed IF uses his green while having 12 black AP and starts dealing 1k+ each end turn after dealing 1k for every regular match in your turns. He is a hero with very cheap abilities, no drawbacks, a health that is not 6800 and a 5AP cost ability that feeds AP to some of the most damaging abilities in the game. Essentially, he screams "Stay away".
  • Iron Fist is so out of whack that the question for spending resources on him is more like what if he gets nerfed tomorrow and you take a 5K or whatever HP loss that you spent onto him. This isn't like the past where we have no idea if devs cared about balance so we don't know for sure why Spiderman or Magneto stayed overpowered as they are for so long. This also isn't like Sentry or Daken who are overpowered but it was not obvious to most people why so it took a while before enough people realized they're indeed game breaking so you can bank on being ahead of the curve until enough people figured this out. There's nothing to figure out here with Iron Fist. He's way overpowered and I'm sure all the guys who say he needs to be nerfed can afford to max him, but they don't want to invest in him because it's hard to imagine he staying in his current form for even a week so getting a one week rental on Iron Fist for a few thousand HP is not exactly a good idea, given this game has a history of no refund on character nerf and even a big spender would not want a one week rental at that price.

    By the way, his green will generate stronger strike tiles than Battleplan if purple stays the way it is (making the 12 black AP condition trivial), which is the best strike tile generator ability previously in the game, and the fact that people aren't even going green indicates how powerful he is.
  • Iron Fist is fun. He can be played with Cage or XF, an for once, we have variants for winning teams.

    We've been complaining for months that we were getting boring characters, that only 4*s were winning, and this is no longer true.

    You can kill XF/GT with Cage/IF/XF or Blade. You don't always win, but it is fun.

    I've been enjoying myself a lot with the Iron Fist PvP, and I'm very enthusiastic about the game (until I find out about the new 4*, but still).

    Keep IF as he is. He's really cool !

    Thanks !
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    Iron Fist is so out of whack that the question for spending resources on him is more like what if he gets nerfed tomorrow and you take a 5K or whatever HP loss that you spent onto him. This isn't like the past where we have no idea if devs cared about balance so we don't know for sure why Spiderman or Magneto stayed overpowered as they are for so long. This also isn't like Sentry or Daken who are overpowered but it was not obvious to most people why so it took a while before enough people realized they're indeed game breaking so you can bank on being ahead of the curve until enough people figured this out. There's nothing to figure out here with Iron Fist. He's way overpowered and I'm sure all the guys who say he needs to be nerfed can afford to max him, but they don't want to invest in him because it's hard to imagine he staying in his current form for even a week so getting a one week rental on Iron Fist for a few thousand HP is not exactly a good idea, given this game has a history of no refund on character nerf and even a big spender would not want a one week rental at that price.

    By the way, his green will generate stronger strike tiles than Battleplan if purple stays the way it is (making the 12 black AP condition trivial), which is the best strike tile generator ability previously in the game, and the fact that people aren't even going green indicates how powerful he is.

    I don't see him getting "fixed" anytime soon, and if they do, they will just scale down some of his abilties similiar to what they did with Daken, instead of a rebalance like a C.Mags where his skills were completely reworked. I see them doing a band-aid like his purple costs 7 and his black does like 50 less damage per turn, then they will walk away from it for a year.
  • Phaserhawk wrote:
    I don't see him getting "fixed" anytime soon, and if they do, they will just scale down some of his abilties similiar to what they did with Daken, instead of a rebalance like a C.Mags where his skills were completely reworked. I see them doing a band-aid like his purple costs 7 and his black does like 50 less damage per turn, then they will walk away from it for a year.

    I don't particularly care how they plan to balance him (or not at all) as opposed to the time frame. He is probably worth a few thousand HP even for a one month rental at his power, but right now you have no idea how long this rental is going to be because he's too powerful. He's not a 4*, and he's not like Sentry where a lot of people thought wasn't all that good so it's hard to see why D3 wouldn't notice he's way overpowered (had he been a 4*, they might've looked the other way just because he's a 4*).

    If they announce that they'll take at least a month before balancing him I'll take him for a rental immediately. I think the only reason we've this huge outlash is not his raw power, but that people are uncertain how long a rental for him would be. If you're at the top of the game you obviously can afford to max him out, and if you're at all competitive not having him puts you at a severe disadvantage, but on the other hand even if you're super competitive you can't be very happy if you found out the HP you spent on him was only good for a 1 week rental, and this problem is going to get worse over time. That is, suppose after one week passed and he's still unnerfed, do you take the plunge now? And what happens if they nerfed him the next week? But without him you'd be at a significant disadvantage, so can you really afford to wait?
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    onimus wrote:
    Being beatable on defense doesn't make a character not overpowered.
    So if your complaint isn't that it's too hard to fight against him, what exactly is the problem? Yes, his purple can get you a quick SS, but as far as winning a match, he's not the fastest.
  • Ludaa
    Ludaa Posts: 542
    He's incredibly fun to play with right now, and while his purple probably needs a cost increase, I say leave him be for a few months. I read a comparison to Sentry in here, oops, I mean the devil incarnate, and I have to chuckle. Sentry was the single best thing to happen for me in MPQ. Without Sentry hopping, I still might not have an Xforce, which now means I wouldn't have GT. So, let Iron Fist be an enabler for those without XF/GT for a while. Most of us here will be using XF/GT to curb stomp everything, wiping IF off the board in 3 or 4 turns.

    His black is no worse than having a bunch of enemy strike tiles out. If you can't kill him quickly, bring Spidey/Cage/Falcon(to buff your shields mostly)/Doc Ock(he has a use!). If it's Strike tiles plus IF's attack tile, bring Hulk and watch the screen turn greeeeeeeeeeen.

    Dear Devs,

    Use this as an opportunity to buff(Doc Ock!) or create counter skills, not nerfing (maybe dat purple tho).
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    I don't see him getting "fixed" anytime soon, and if they do, they will just scale down some of his abilties similiar to what they did with Daken, instead of a rebalance like a C.Mags where his skills were completely reworked. I see them doing a band-aid like his purple costs 7 and his black does like 50 less damage per turn, then they will walk away from it for a year.

    I don't particularly care how they plan to balance him (or not at all) as opposed to the time frame. He is probably worth a few thousand HP even for a one month rental at his power, but right now you have no idea how long this rental is going to be because he's too powerful. He's not a 4*, and he's not like Sentry where a lot of people thought wasn't all that good so it's hard to see why D3 wouldn't notice he's way overpowered (had he been a 4*, they might've looked the other way just because he's a 4*).

    If they announce that they'll take at least a month before balancing him I'll take him for a rental immediately. I think the only reason we've this huge outlash is not his raw power, but that people are uncertain how long a rental for him would be. If you're at the top of the game you obviously can afford to max him out, and if you're at all competitive not having him puts you at a severe disadvantage, but on the other hand even if you're super competitive you can't be very happy if you found out the HP you spent on him was only good for a 1 week rental, and this problem is going to get worse over time. That is, suppose after one week passed and he's still unnerfed, do you take the plunge now? And what happens if they nerfed him the next week? But without him you'd be at a significant disadvantage, so can you really afford to wait?

    Based on history, I think it's safe to say that he won't be fixed until he rotates out so IMO he's got about 3-4 months of what he is, otherwise they would have prenerfed him like Psylocke, or already done so during his PvE like they did Black Panther. I think this is your typical, "well he only affects 2% of the player base as the remainder won't have him, so he's okay" Remember the metrics, Astonishing Wolvie's Green is the most used skill in the game, I cannot tell you the last time I ever used that skill, so obviously my worry about Iron Fist is nothing to be concerned of. I think until he begins warping the format in the numbers Sentry was doing, he won't be changed, and Sentry took about a year because it wasn't until a large population got him that he started to become a problem. I think they balance everything based on a begining player, not a veteran.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    onimus wrote:
    You have an incredibly good chance of getting surgical strike turn 1.

    If you're facing an Xforce, that could mean an Xforce turn 1 too.

    He can, in fact, legitimately, win in 2 to 3 turns.
    Having 9 placed black tiles generate the 9 AP would be extremely lucky, not an "incredibly good chance". Even if you also boosted 3 black, I've seen plenty of casts of his purple that don't yield 2 matches. Unless it's your second cast of purple, I don't even think it's 50-50 that you get two matches.

    But let's say you did... and you got off SS... and let's say you are facing another XF, collect green, and get off XF. All you've done at this point is down XF. You still have 16k of GT to get rid of, and whatever the 3rd character is. And you're out of AP. So I'm not seeing how this translates into a 2 or 3 turn win.
  • Ludaa wrote:
    He's incredibly fun to play with right now, and while his purple probably needs a cost increase, I say leave him be for a few months. I read a comparison to Sentry in here, oops, I mean the devil incarnate, and I have to chuckle. Sentry was the single best thing to happen for me in MPQ. Without Sentry hopping, I still might not have an Xforce, which now means I wouldn't have GT. So, let Iron Fist be an enabler for those without XF/GT for a while. Most of us here will be using XF/GT to curb stomp everything, wiping IF off the board in 3 or 4 turns.

    His black is no worse than having a bunch of enemy strike tiles out. If you can't kill him quickly, bring Spidey/Cage/Falcon(to buff your shields mostly)/Doc Ock(he has a use!). If it's Strike tiles plus IF's attack tile, bring Hulk and watch the screen turn greeeeeeeeeeen.

    Dear Devs,

    Use this as an opportunity to buff(Doc Ock!) or create counter skills, not nerfing (maybe dat purple tho).


    So you are basically saying, Let's keep having OP characters that break the game to let the newbies climb up faster? Then, when a ton of people get their xf / Gt, we can nerf him? That's dumb. Having a blatantly broken character is not good for the game in any way. It's best to get the balance over with sooner than later. Like others had said, it's happened very quickly before with BP and Psylocke.
  • Based on the last node in Simulator normal (Luke Cage/Iron Fist/Thoress) he is going to be almost impossible to fight against without first class teams.

    After that fight 2 of my characters (all at Lvl 94) needed health packs, and that was against a node with Lvl 83 characters. His attack tile really hurts low HP support characters. Only solution I can think of is to bring Luke Cage, but he was locked out of that node. I don't want to think about what PvP will look like in 2 months.

    His passive is god tier, and his synergy with X-Force and other characters with good black skills is amazing.

    Yeah, I'm going to take a break from MPQ and only play the Deadpool Daily Quests until I see how this issue gets resolved. I'd like at least a fighting chance, but Iron Fist pretty much forces me to spend health packs every time I encounter him, and I'm not willing to do that.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Tripwire wrote:
    Yeah, I'm going to take a break from MPQ and only play the Deadpool Daily Quests until I see how this issue gets resolved. I'd like at least a fighting chance, but Iron Fist pretty much forces me to spend health packs every time I encounter him, and I'm not willing to do that.
    If you need to take a break because of one character who appears in one node out of 30 in a PvE, I'd say you were itching hard for a reason to put the game aside.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 981 Critical Contributor
    it just sucks when they nerf, the dev have no nerfing skills- they're going to go Magnerfo on him or give him a Sentry castration and we will lose a fun character

    It does suck if he can do it twice in a row, so he gets stunned 1 turn when he hits purple? Cost from 5 to 7 ?
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    onimus wrote:
    Being beatable on defense doesn't make a character not overpowered.
    So if your complaint isn't that it's too hard to fight against him, what exactly is the problem? Yes, his purple can get you a quick SS, but as far as winning a match, he's not the fastest.

    He's by far the fastest in 3* land. If your argument for why a nerf isn't necessary is that he's not as fast as XF / GT, then I don't know what to say, because you're comparing a 3* to 2 4*s that are at least 50% better than any existing 3* today.
  • woopie
    woopie Posts: 311 Mover and Shaker
    All powers below are at 5 covers

    Dr. Doom - all blue tiles to black for 9 AP

    Mystique - 10 random tiles to black or purple for 9 AP

    Cyclops - 8 TU tiles to red for 7 AP

    GSBW - 6 chosen tiles to green for 11AP

    IF - 9 random (basic) tiles to black for 5 AP or a bunch of damage if you have 12+ black.

    Definitely a disconnect in the power costs when you take a look at it
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 981 Critical Contributor
    simonsez wrote:
    onimus wrote:
    Being beatable on defense doesn't make a character not overpowered.
    So if your complaint isn't that it's too hard to fight against him, what exactly is the problem? Yes, his purple can get you a quick SS, but as far as winning a match, he's not the fastest.

    He's by far the fastest in 3* land. If your argument for why a nerf isn't necessary is that he's not as fast as XF / GT, then I don't know what to say, because you're comparing a 3* to 2 4*s that are at least 50% better than any existing 3* today.
    he's comparing because he's fast with a 4* (xforce),

    In the 3* realm, he could be pretty good with BP too I guess
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 981 Critical Contributor
    woopie wrote:
    All powers below are at 5 covers

    Dr. Doom - all blue tiles to black for 9 AP

    Mystique - 10 random tiles to black or purple for 9 AP

    Cyclops - 8 TU tiles to red for 7 AP

    GSBW - 6 chosen tiles to green for 11AP

    IF - 9 random (basic) tiles to black for 5 AP or a bunch of damage if you have 12+ black.

    Definitely a disconnect in the power costs when you take a look at it

    but by himself he doesn't do much with all those blacks, the others you mentioned hit you with those generated colors, some hit pretty hard, so it should cost a bit less, but yeah that's a lot less on the cost. He's a combo guy
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wonko33 wrote:
    simonsez wrote:
    onimus wrote:
    Being beatable on defense doesn't make a character not overpowered.
    So if your complaint isn't that it's too hard to fight against him, what exactly is the problem? Yes, his purple can get you a quick SS, but as far as winning a match, he's not the fastest.

    He's by far the fastest in 3* land. If your argument for why a nerf isn't necessary is that he's not as fast as XF / GT, then I don't know what to say, because you're comparing a 3* to 2 4*s that are at least 50% better than any existing 3* today.
    he's comparing because he's fast with a 4* (xforce),

    In the 3* realm, he could be pretty good with BP too I guess

    BP + IF is the best 3* team out in existence right now, he's still not remotely balanced even in 3* land.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wonko33 wrote:
    woopie wrote:
    All powers below are at 5 covers

    Dr. Doom - all blue tiles to black for 9 AP

    Mystique - 10 random tiles to black or purple for 9 AP

    Cyclops - 8 TU tiles to red for 7 AP

    GSBW - 6 chosen tiles to green for 11AP

    IF - 9 random (basic) tiles to black for 5 AP or a bunch of damage if you have 12+ black.

    Definitely a disconnect in the power costs when you take a look at it

    but by himself he doesn't do much with all those blacks, the others you mentioned hit you with those generated colors, some hit pretty hard, so it should cost a bit less, but yeah that's a lot less on the cost. He's a combo guy

    The efficiency at which he enables other skills is not fair. If I had a character that had an ability that said "5 AP: If you have Iron-Man 40 on your team, this does 10k damage", would that be balanced?