*** Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon) ***

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Comments

  • For the general 'balance is hard' debate, just because balance is hard doesn't mean the 'god tier' or the 'garbage tier' should exist. For example Ragnarok pre nerf would be god tier. There's literally no way you can fight him fairly and if it was possible to play other players in MPQ directly you'd almost never have a chance of beating another player using Ragnarok if you don't have him (we'll assume in this hypothetical mode you can't possibly have an advantage like boosts and stuff because your opponent should be able to get them too and any boosts greatly favor Ragnarok anyway). The Punisher was consistently top tier during the early days of MPQ, but he's by no means god tier. He did everything extremely well and probably too well compard to the characters in the early days of MPQ but it's not like he gives you no chance whatsoever to fight back. I think this game also skews people's perception of fairness since being on offense is overwhelmingly unfair due to how this game is designed, often enough to cancel out even a very imbalanced character.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 981 Critical Contributor
    As always the issue is boosts.
  • Iron fist was featured in his tournament, shows up in the simulator, and is already fairly common in the following pvp.

    As Phantron mentioned attrition damage is greatly increased facing IF. It is impossible to stop his attack tile unless the AI chooses to match it away for you, all removing the attack tile does is slow the match down as IF does his animation to make a new one each time. Anyone can bring any strike tile user to compound the attrition damage there is nothing that can be done to stop it.

    And this is not his problem power. The purple is the OP one. So even if you can prevent his purple his black will always punish your team, making your attack team take that much more damage. He is bad for the game because he is amazing on defense and even better on offense. He has no downside at all.

    Simply put, there is nothing fun about playing against IF. Xforce and Goddess Thor can be beaten, there are ways to fight them, as is true for everyone else. IF will always bloody your nose, and that is worse for 3* teams than 4* teams so no I don't think he is "good" for transition teams. Those with strong IF will beat up on those without, and the cure for an illness should never be the same as the cause.

    I don't like calling for nerfs either, but my whole roster just got weaker and that isn't very fun and exciting.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 981 Critical Contributor

    And this is not his problem power. The purple is the OP one. So even if you can prevent his purple his black will always punish your team, making your attack team take that much more damage. He is bad for the game because he is amazing on defense and even better on offense. He has no downside at all.
    .

    His Downside is that he takes 4thor's spot , he's going to be the King of Shield simulator and the PvP when he's featured.

    I've just played tons of matches against him, xforce and 4thor, never lost one, he might be good on offense but people are exaggerating his defensive skills -

    So you guys think people will drop 4thor and run xforce-IF in the next PvP? Id rather keep my xforce -4thor and feed tons of charged yellows to Cage.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wonko33 wrote:

    And this is not his problem power. The purple is the OP one. So even if you can prevent his purple his black will always punish your team, making your attack team take that much more damage. He is bad for the game because he is amazing on defense and even better on offense. He has no downside at all.
    .

    His Downside is that he takes 4thor's spot , he's going to be the King of Shield simulator and the PvP when he's featured.

    I've just played tons of matches against him, xforce and 4thor, never lost one, he might be good on offense but people are exaggerating his defensive skills -

    So you guys think people will drop 4thor and run xforce-IF in the next PvP? Id rather keep my xforce -4thor and feed tons of charged yellows to Cage.

    Yeah, he's not as good as XF / GT, but XF / GT are 4*s that we know to be at least 50% better than the best 3* characters in the game (since they're a ton better than any 249 featured 3*). If this is the case and we have people that are even CONSIDERING IF replacing GT, then what does that say about IF's power as a 3*? If we had a 2* that was just slightly weaker than LazyThor, poor reasoning would say that "who cares because LazyThor's still better, he doesn't break the meta".

    Characters should be judged against their peers, and IF basically has none in 3* land, which is what I think crypto was referring to, as opposed to him actually breaking the 4* meta.
  • konannfriends
    konannfriends Posts: 246 Tile Toppler
    Wonko33 wrote:

    And this is not his problem power. The purple is the OP one. So even if you can prevent his purple his black will always punish your team, making your attack team take that much more damage. He is bad for the game because he is amazing on defense and even better on offense. He has no downside at all.
    .

    His Downside is that he takes 4thor's spot , he's going to be the King of Shield simulator and the PvP when he's featured.

    I've just played tons of matches against him, xforce and 4thor, never lost one, he might be good on offense but people are exaggerating his defensive skills -

    So you guys think people will drop 4thor and run xforce-IF in the next PvP? Id rather keep my xforce -4thor and feed tons of charged yellows to Cage.

    Yeah, he's not as good as XF / GT, but XF / GT are 4*s that we know to be at least 50% better than the best 3* characters in the game (since they're a ton better than any 249 featured 3*). If this is the case and we have people that are even CONSIDERING IF replacing GT, then what does that say about IF's power as a 3*? If we had a 2* that was just slightly weaker than LazyThor, poor reasoning would say that "who cares because LazyThor's still better, he doesn't break the meta".

    Characters should be judged against their peers, and IF basically has none in 3* land.

    i totally agree with you. who cares if you didnt lose a match ( other guy), did you see that cascade photo proof. in my opinion that move should cost 7 ap and also end the turn.his passive needs a reality check.

    He needs the Sentry treatment
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wonko33 wrote:

    And this is not his problem power. The purple is the OP one. So even if you can prevent his purple his black will always punish your team, making your attack team take that much more damage. He is bad for the game because he is amazing on defense and even better on offense. He has no downside at all.
    .

    His Downside is that he takes 4thor's spot , he's going to be the King of Shield simulator and the PvP when he's featured.

    I've just played tons of matches against him, xforce and 4thor, never lost one, he might be good on offense but people are exaggerating his defensive skills -

    So you guys think people will drop 4thor and run xforce-IF in the next PvP? Id rather keep my xforce -4thor and feed tons of charged yellows to Cage.

    Yeah, he's not as good as XF / GT, but XF / GT are 4*s that we know to be at least 50% better than the best 3* characters in the game (since they're a ton better than any 249 featured 3*). If this is the case and we have people that are even CONSIDERING IF replacing GT, then what does that say about IF's power as a 3*? If we had a 2* that was just slightly weaker than LazyThor, poor reasoning would say that "who cares because LazyThor's still better, he doesn't break the meta".

    Characters should be judged against their peers, and IF basically has none in 3* land.

    i totally agree with you. who cares if you didnt lose a match ( other guy), did you see that cascade photo proof. in my opinion that move should cost 7 ap and also end the turn.his passive needs a reality check.

    He needs the Sentry treatment

    Whoa, whoa whoa. He needs a nerf but he doesn't need to be put in a wheelchair.
  • Well they need to nerf him quick! 10 ap at least for purple. Do it now before too many people buy his covers. give refunds to the people that did and call it a day.
  • El Satanno
    El Satanno Posts: 1,005 Chairperson of the Boards
    sms4002 wrote:
    Well they need to nerf him quick! 10 ap at least for purple. Do it now before too many people buy his covers. give refunds to the people that did and call it a day.

    Don't count on that, in any of the cases you are looking for. There is no way they'll nerf him this soon after his release, if ever. It took them months to nerf Sentry and when they did, they offered the same meager refund they always do: double the usual sell price. Peanuts. No, we'll have to deal with Iron Fist the way he is for a goodly while. Buy your covers this month confidently knowing they will be a value proposition for the next 3-6.
  • El Satanno wrote:
    sms4002 wrote:
    Well they need to nerf him quick! 10 ap at least for purple. Do it now before too many people buy his covers. give refunds to the people that did and call it a day.

    Don't count on that, in any of the cases you are looking for. There is no way they'll nerf him this soon after his release, if ever. It took them months to nerf Sentry and when they did, they offered the same meager refund they always do: double the usual sell price. Peanuts. No, we'll have to deal with Iron Fist the way he is for a goodly while. Buy your covers this month confidently knowing they will be a value proposition for the next 3-6.
    Well they did nerf BP (after much forum uproar) and Psylocke (because her blue was OP? lol) pre-release. So the possibility is there.
  • I also don't like to complain about characters, but I do have to complain that even after making very profitable characters the devs still don't want to lower or fix the roster slot prices
  • Wonko33 wrote:
    His Downside is that he takes 4thor's spot , he's going to be the King of Shield simulator and the PvP when he's featured.

    I've just played tons of matches against him, xforce and 4thor, never lost one, he might be good on offense but people are exaggerating his defensive skills -
    I would say you were lucky.
    I routinely play against XForce/4Thor teams and I rarely lose save for a tough board or unlucky placement of charged tiles. The routine is pretty simple there: deny green and black and sometimes blue if needed, which charges your own Xforce attacks. If you buff with a +3 green/black it's all very doable.

    But if you add (or substitute to Goddess) IF to the equation, everything becomes a tad more difficult. You have to deny green, black and purple. Sure you could forget about black and focus on purple and green only, but denying a color the AI only needs 5 of is quite difficult most of the time. And if the black generator power starts, you're on your way to doom as (tinfoil hat on) by sheer coincidence it happens to trigger a truckload of cascades(tinfoil hat off).
    By the way, did you notice that power generating tiles in a random fashion are much much stronger in defense than the ones letting the player decide where to put the tiles?
    I mean, when was the last time you saw Magneto ** or GSBW generates blue/green and think "I'm doomed!" ? I would say never. On the other hand, seeing Cyclops generate red or Mystique do her blue trick can sometimes (often ?) lead to very very bad cascades. Ditto for IF.

    So let's propose a (very very stupid) way to solve the issue with IF : let's buff him !
    Instead of having black generated at random, let's have the player decide where to place those tiles. Sure, it will make IF even stronger in offense that it is right now, but I believe that the amount of cascades in defense will drop quite a bit. Besides, given how much cost the others AP-placed-by-the-player generating ability, the 5AP cost could even get normalized. icon_lol.gif
  • Grosnours wrote:
    Wonko33 wrote:
    His Downside is that he takes 4thor's spot , he's going to be the King of Shield simulator and the PvP when he's featured.

    I've just played tons of matches against him, xforce and 4thor, never lost one, he might be good on offense but people are exaggerating his defensive skills -
    I would say you were lucky.
    I routinely play against XForce/4Thor teams and I rarely lose save for a tough board or unlucky placement of charged tiles. The routine is pretty simple there: deny green and black and sometimes blue if needed, which charges your own Xforce attacks. If you buff with a +3 green/black it's all very doable.

    But if you add (or substitute to Goddess) IF to the equation, everything becomes a tad more difficult. You have to deny green, black and purple. Sure you could forget about black and focus on purple and green only, but denying a color the AI only needs 5 of is quite difficult most of the time. And if the black generator power starts, you're on your way to doom as (tinfoil hat on) by sheer coincidence it happens to trigger a truckload of cascades(tinfoil hat off).
    By the way, did you notice that power generating tiles in a random fashion are much much stronger in defense than the ones letting the player decide where to put the tiles?
    I mean, when was the last time you saw Magneto ** or GSBW generates blue/green and think "I'm doomed!" ? I would say never. On the other hand, seeing Cyclops generate red or Mystique do her blue trick can sometimes (often ?) lead to very very bad cascades. Ditto for IF.

    So let's propose a (very very stupid) way to solve the issue with IF : let's buff him !
    Instead of having black generated at random, let's have the player decide where to place those tiles. Sure, it will make IF even stronger in offense that it is right now, but I believe that the amount of cascades in defense will drop quite a bit. Besides, given how much cost the others AP-placed-by-the-player generating ability, the 5AP cost could even get normalized. icon_lol.gif

    I agree.

    Denying 5 AP is impossible.
    That's 2 matches. If there are 2 purple matches on the board, you take one. They take the other one.

    Now they're a simple cascade or another similar match away from murdering you and your entire family.

    Xforce is hard enough to deny as it only costs 8. But trying to deny a 5 cost ability? That's impossible.

    How this ability has the same cost as Loki's Illusions will never make sense to me.
  • Unknown
    edited March 2015
    I guess most of us agree that at some point OF will change. Quite possibly when the devs determine the game has sold X amount of covers and ISO packs. I compared IF and Psylocke because they serve similar function in the team. The first ability deals damage and places strike tiles, the second ability generate AP, the last ability places 1 attack tile (in the case of Psylocke also deals damage)

    The decision making from the side of the devs makes no sense at all. That they nerfed Psylocke's blue even before her pve was over is laughable. Were they really worried about it being OP. Perhaps the devs should imitate the players and actually play the game instead of just designing it. Here is a comparison of IF and Psylocke (whom I wanted to like a lot) How can the devs consider that these 2 characters are even remotely close in terms of overall usefulness and strength? Every ability of IF is considerably stronger. It would make much more sense for Psylocke to get the high damage Attack tile since hers is an active ability and even then, IF's black would still be awesome.

    First ability
    Iron Fist - 8AP: 926 damage, 3x123 (369) Strike tiles |OR| 6x123 (738) if 12 or more Black AP.
    Psylocke - 8AP: 965 damage, 1x192 Strike tile. AP reduction (5 min) for every Red Strike tile.

    Second ability
    Iron Fist - 5AP: Converts 9 tiles to Black |OR| 4113 damage.
    Psylocke - 10AP: 2 turn Countdown tile that steals up to 19 AP

    Third ability
    Iron Fist - Passive: 486 Green Attack tile each turn
    Psylocke - 6AP: 965 damage, 231 damage Black Attack tile

    I had some free time so here are some changes I hope/expect to see in the near future on both characters that keep the flavor of the current abilities.

    Psylocke Red - Keep the cost and the AP reduction mechanic, split the strike tile to 2 tiles, each with 120-150 strength. Maybe buff damage to ~1200
    Psylocke Blue - Passive: Every time an enemy uses an active ability, create a 2 turn CD tile that steals 3AP from 2 random colors.
    Psylocke Black - Keep the cost, buff the direct damage to 1300-1500 and place 2x150 Strength Attack tiles.

    Another option for her blue could be
    Psylocke Blue - Passive: If the enemy team makes a match-4 or better, place a 2 turn CD tile that activates Psylocke's red or black ability at no cost.

    IF Green - Leave it alone, it is fine.
    IF Purple - Increase cost to 7AP and convert 7 tiles to Black or deals 3113 damage.
    IF Black - Drop the strength of the tile to 268 Strength (same as Luke Cage's red)
  • An easy example is the 4* metagame. Suppose the featured character is LazyCap. If the 4* characters were balanced enough, Cap being mainly red and blue would sway you to not use 4or, since, well, the two conflict directly in terms of color and everything. You could do something like run Starlord instead because his main color is purple and conflicts much less with LCap. This was a very real possibility in the 3* meta: we were getting to a point with Doom / Cage / etc that if the main character was mainly yellow green such as Sentry, then it could have been optimal to run characters like Doom over LazyThor because of color conflicts. But when a couple of characters are so above the curve that there is no balance, the featured will always be completely useless, and BP / IF will always be strictly better than any team that tries to synergize with the featured hero or at least not completely conflict.

    That is my grand vision of a balanced metagame and the benefits that it could have, but you know, say the word nerf and people lose their tinykitty so it's probably not happening.

    That's because all the other 4*s suck for their alleged power level AND they use red or blue AS WELL. When you wouldn't even use starlord over several 3* heroes how can the fact ppl wouldn't use him in a LCap tournament mean anything?

    IF's purple is probably 2AP too cheap though (IMO) but ppl will resist the nerf calls because D3's track record is, when a power is too good DESTROY IT. Add 5 AP to the cost, increase the CD tile by 1 AND reduce the character's strike tile generator to be comperable to a similarly costed power that doesn't kill the person using it? Sounds like a good plan!

    If you could trust them to, say, add 2AP to the cost and see how it goes maybe ppl wouldn't be so touchy.

    OFC, depending on the thread you read his passive is totally OP as well. It seems the only reasonable ability is his decidedly meh green. While there are people who will resist anything remotely resembling a nerf call there are equally rabid ppl who will call for EVERYTHING to be nerfed.
  • How about we just have an awesome 3* and leave him alone? I don't have him all covered, and by the time I do he will most likely be nerfed. Just leave him be.
  • Rio_D wrote:
    How about we just have an awesome 3* and leave him alone? I don't have him all covered, and by the time I do he will most likely be nerfed. Just leave him be.
    I have no problem with an awesome 3 star.

    I have a problem with an oppressive 3 star.

    And IF will, undoubtedly, become oppressive unless he is nerfed.

    There's really no way to debate that.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,642 Chairperson of the Boards
    Right now, what I want is the devs acknowledging this debate, and I want them to tell us if IF is going to be nerfed or not. TELL US NOW.

    I don't want to spend iso or even HP into him, and then devs nerfing him into oblivion in less than a month.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    onimus wrote:
    And IF will, undoubtedly, become oppressive unless he is nerfed.

    There's really no way to debate that.
    So how is it my lv230 IF was batted around like a pinata? After getting the 900 pt prog award, I ended up getting hit all the way down to 707. Seriously, the only person I got any defensive wins off of was you. I could've put up any sort of reasonable formation and wouldn't have gotten hit any worse than that. So clearly people aren't afraid of him and aren't having any problem beating him.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Polares wrote:
    Right now, what I want is the devs acknowledging this debate, and I want them to tell us if IF is going to be nerfed or not. TELL US NOW.

    I don't want to spend iso or even HP into him, and then devs nerfing him into oblivion in less than a month.

    Looking at the character, his skills are not broken, it's the cost or lack of cost that's the problem.

    IF's Green--Is actually underpowered IMO, I would like to see some of the black strength go into here.
    IF's Purple--the second half, 12 black + 5 purple to do 4K is actually fine, it's the 5AP for 9 Black that is the big problem. If the thought was to create a weird 10AP 4K damage skill they failed, A simple fix could be a Psylocke/Nick Fury hybrid type clause.

    My fix. Have this cost 10 AP, then for every 2 black AP you have it costs 1 less purple. That way if you boosted it still costs 6 purple
    Iron Fist of K'un-Lun - 10 AP
    Daniel Rand focuses his chi to make his fist like a thing unto iron and strikes. For every 2 Black AP the team has (rounded down), this skill costs 1 less purple AP (no less than 5), converts 5 basic tiles to Black. If the team has 12 or more Black AP, deals 498 damage instead.


    IF's Black--the skill is fine, the damage is waaaaaayyy too high. Again I would shift some of the power from this to green.

    The simplest fix would be to just switch the costs of his purple and green and lower the attack tile damage on black. he'd still be overly strong but nothing more than what we are used to.