*** Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon) ***
Comments
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The green improvement is very significant as you're going from from about 320 (4X80) to about 720 (6X120) from 3 to 5 in almost all cases because it's actually pretty hard to not have 12 black AP with him, but green happens to be the easiest color to get another great ability and is the color of X Force so you can afford to skip it there. In a neutral environment I'd definitely do 5/5/3, but X Force and green in general is so dominant that you should be able to find another serviceable green power instead while the same cannot be said for purple and his black is a passive.0
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ark123 wrote:
if you have access to any 4*s you want 5/5/3.Phaserhawk wrote:NorthernPolarity wrote:Vhailorx wrote:Everyone has been discussing iron fist + xforce. And some others have discussed cage or patch or falcon as potential partners. Those are all good teams, but they are also all looking at top tier characters (except falcon, who is mid-tier, but also an obvious pair for anyone who generates cheap special tiles)
But what about less obvious pairs that might be useful for transitioners?
Will iron fist play well with gamora? He generates black to fuel her strike tiles, which then double-dip off his attack tile. And so long as she is placed ahead of him, she will tank all of her colors.
How about R&G? 5/6 colors covered (though only 3 actives). R&G makes beefy strike tiles to double dip on the attack tile. And true healing is always nice for sustainability.
In 2* land, OBW is obvious so long as she can tank at least one of black/purple, and wolvie would generate useful strike tiles. Not sure if there are any other obvious pairings that build off each other (rather than just being two good characters that do their own thing and don't interact).
Any other good 'further down the roster' synergies that are worth trying out?
The main thing about Iron Fist is that you really really need a good black to unlock his potential. The whole point to IF is that you're supposed to use his purple to accelerate into 12 black, then use his green/purple, followed by the black ability. If you don't have a worthwhile black skill, then that's like making it so that his green and purple cost 12 black + 9 green, or 12 black + 6 purple which is... a lot worse. This is why I am perplexed about people saying that Blade is great with him: the strike tile / attack tile interaction is nice, but the actives just do not play well with each other at all. I did an analysis a lot earlier in the thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24256&start=60#p302731, and I stand by my predictions that those are going to be who Iron Fist should be paired with.
Gamora is a weird one: on one hand, purple accelerating into black into strike tiles seems very good. On the other hand, you lose a ton of value on Gamora's black since you need to cast Iron Fist's green and purple before using her black, meaning they can't dip off the strike tiles. For a transitioner with both Gamora (such that Gamora tanks everything) and IF though, I could see this combo working out pretty well, but it tapers off considerably once Gamora tanks less colors.
So does IF warrant shifting Cage into 5/3/5? Or is he still better off as a 5/5/3 helper of 4hor?
I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT, then what is he good for? Heroics! And in heroics, you don't die to match damage, you die to headbutts, so red isn't as useful. Starting to think that 5/3/5 might be the best build for the people with 4*s: Cage just isn't necessary as XF / GT support when we have Loki / Cyc / and now IF. If you're using Cage with XF, then yeah, 5/5/3 because you're never casting his black over surgical. With GT / in heroics, I dunno..0 -
I'm not using Cage with XF / GT as much as I thought I would, either. Mine is built 5/3/5 right now (how the covers fell). I'm currently using him most with Blade and Falcon, so that build is fine but I find I prefer using Blade's black. I guess I'll have to see if I like him more with IF and decide stick to that build. His flexibility leaves him pretty open, so there may not be a definitive build. The question a player will have to answer is: how do I use him? Then build accordingly.NorthernPolarity wrote:ark123 wrote:
if you have access to any 4*s you want 5/5/3.Phaserhawk wrote:So does IF warrant shifting Cage into 5/3/5? Or is he still better off as a 5/5/3 helper of 4hor?
I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT, then what is he good for? Heroics! And in heroics, you don't die to match damage, you die to headbutts, so red isn't as useful. Starting to think that 5/3/5 might be the best build for the people with 4*s: Cage just isn't necessary as XF / GT support when we have Loki / Cyc / and now IF. If you're using Cage with XF, then yeah, 5/5/3 because you're never casting his black over surgical. With GT / in heroics, I dunno..0 -
NorthernPolarity wrote:
I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT
I use him with GT and loki all the time. They're my climbing team. That way I have a yellow that insta-kills a support instead of slightly winding everyone. I sub him for hood later, because hood black on loki green is the bee's knees.
Also his black is kinda just bad. You need at least 12 black for it to do anything, and I'm pretty sure most of us can come up with better ways to use 12 black.0 -
ark123 wrote:NorthernPolarity wrote:
I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT
I use him with GT and loki all the time. They're my climbing team. That way I have a yellow that insta-kills a support instead of slightly winding everyone. I sub him for hood later, because hood black on loki green is the bee's knees.
Also his black is kinda just bad. You need at least 12 black for it to do anything, and I'm pretty sure most of us can come up with better ways to use 12 black.
Do you have an XF? I don't think GT / Loki / Cage is better enough over XF / GT / Loki for me to really change Cage's build specifically to fill that niche.
Cage's black is bad when you compare him to Surgical Strike, but literally every single ability in the game is bad when compared to Surgical Strike except Surge / Smite. I wrote my analysis of pairings earlier: there are exactly two better ways to use 12 black: XF and BP. Considering that, I would argue that you have a very high probability of Cage's black being by far the best black when paired with Cage, and one of the best blacks in the game comparatively speaking, meaning that 5 black will be a boon in heroics.0 -
For climbing? Yes, he's much better than xforce. Since he makes it so you don't lose health on any of your characters.NorthernPolarity wrote:ark123 wrote:NorthernPolarity wrote:
I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT
I use him with GT and loki all the time. They're my climbing team. That way I have a yellow that insta-kills a support instead of slightly winding everyone. I sub him for hood later, because hood black on loki green is the bee's knees.
Also his black is kinda just bad. You need at least 12 black for it to do anything, and I'm pretty sure most of us can come up with better ways to use 12 black.
Do you have an XF? I don't think GT / Loki / Cage is better enough over XF / GT / Loki for me to really change Cage's build specifically to fill that niche.
Cage's black is bad when you compare him to Surgical Strike, but literally every single ability in the game is bad when compared to Surgical Strike except Surge / Smite. I wrote my analysis of pairings earlier: there are exactly two better ways to use 12 black: XF and BP. Considering that, I would argue that you have a very high probability of Cage's black being by far the best black when paired with Cage, and one of the best blacks in the game comparatively speaking, meaning that 5 black will be a boon in heroics.
My xf isn't usable, but I'd much rather have hood loki goddess when im over 800 than goddess loki/hood cage.
But climbing to 600-800? He's a godsend.0 -
ark123 wrote:
For climbing? Yes, he's much better than xforce. Since he makes it so you don't lose health on any of your characters.NorthernPolarity wrote:ark123 wrote:NorthernPolarity wrote:
I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT
I use him with GT and loki all the time. They're my climbing team. That way I have a yellow that insta-kills a support instead of slightly winding everyone. I sub him for hood later, because hood black on loki green is the bee's knees.
Also his black is kinda just bad. You need at least 12 black for it to do anything, and I'm pretty sure most of us can come up with better ways to use 12 black.
Do you have an XF? I don't think GT / Loki / Cage is better enough over XF / GT / Loki for me to really change Cage's build specifically to fill that niche.
Cage's black is bad when you compare him to Surgical Strike, but literally every single ability in the game is bad when compared to Surgical Strike except Surge / Smite. I wrote my analysis of pairings earlier: there are exactly two better ways to use 12 black: XF and BP. Considering that, I would argue that you have a very high probability of Cage's black being by far the best black when paired with Cage, and one of the best blacks in the game comparatively speaking, meaning that 5 black will be a boon in heroics.
My xf isn't usable, but I'd much rather have hood loki goddess when im over 800 than goddess loki/hood cage.
But climbing to 600-800? He's a godsend.
I don't think I play long enough per session to really care about spending the one extra health pack that I would use with XF / GT / Loki than with Cage / GT / Loki, but fair enough.0 -
IF at 3/5/5 is a no brainer, but yeah the Cage dilema. I'm also starting to wondering if 5/3/5 is the best pairing for Cage, but then again I have X-Force and I would only use Cage for 3 things. Early PvP climbs, Heroic, and as needed in either PvP or PvE if essential.
Either way Cage's yellow is 5 mandatory. The question is, is 127 less match damage worth the extra 2K dmg?
First use of Cage Black is almost no difference, 256 dmg is nothing, but the second use gets you an extra 1744 dmg and the stun, but the more I think about pairing IF and Cage, you almost don't want Cage's black either, since the more black makes IF's other 2 better because what's interesting is with the black, IF's purple does what Cage's black does but for an even lower cost.
In the end though with Cage, IMO the boosted damage prevention from PvP and Heroic PvE would be worth giving up the extra dmg on black that I will most of the time have a better use for.0 -
Phaserhawk wrote:IF at 3/5/5 is a no brainer, but yeah the Cage dilema. I'm also starting to wondering if 5/3/5 is the best pairing for Cage, but then again I have X-Force and I would only use Cage for 3 things. Early PvP climbs, Heroic, and as needed in either PvP or PvE if essential.
Either way Cage's yellow is 5 mandatory. The question is, is 127 less match damage worth the extra 2K dmg?
First use of Cage Black is almost no difference, 256 dmg is nothing, but the second use gets you an extra 1744 dmg and the stun, but the more I think about pairing IF and Cage, you almost don't want Cage's black either, since the more black makes IF's other 2 better because what's interesting is with the black, IF's purple does what Cage's black does but for an even lower cost.
In the end though with Cage, IMO the boosted damage prevention from PvP and Heroic PvE would be worth giving up the extra dmg on black that I will most of the time have a better use for.
Erm, the point is that you use Cage's black as a finishing blow. The thing about IF is that whatever black ability you have, ideally you want to be able to use it at the end of the match, since you need to hoard black for IF's other abilities. For example, Gamora's black is bad because you need to get it out ASAP, which means you can't hoard for IF. With Cage, it doesn't matter if you use his black immediately or at the end of the match: it does the same amount of damage either way. As a result, I don't think your argument makes sense since if your gameplan is Cage + IF, then you're going to have like 12 black at the end of the match, so thats -1.7k damage from that instantly going from 5->3 black, or potentially 3.4k damage if you have 18 black (which is extremely likely since the first purple accelerates black).
Thinking about it more, I think an average Cage / IF match would go like this:
Step 1: cast purple once or twice. Should easily accelerate black such that you get 18 AP by the end of the match.
Step 2: Gather and hoard random AP, until you can kill them.
Step 3: Cast IF green. Cast IF purple for damage. Finish with Cage black.
Specifically for IF / Cage, 5/3/5 seems like a no brainer. I also don't see how you can say that you will "have a better use for the black" in heroics, because the only black in heroics that I can think of that will always be better than Cage is BP (XF is locked out).0 -
One thing to consider regarding Heroics though, is how often are they even going to run? Since the Mystique release/Juggs Heroic meltdown clear back at the start of November we've seen only a single run of the others (Oscorp in January). I'm not saying they couldn't make a comeback, but at the moment they aren't being used much. I'm not sure you can fault somebody for not building toward an event type that might feature said character and runs every couple months.0
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Yeah...I don't see it. There has to be a better black around your roster. His black starts getting ok at 18. That's almost a IM40 skill or sniper.NorthernPolarity wrote:Phaserhawk wrote:IF at 3/5/5 is a no brainer, but yeah the Cage dilema. I'm also starting to wondering if 5/3/5 is the best pairing for Cage, but then again I have X-Force and I would only use Cage for 3 things. Early PvP climbs, Heroic, and as needed in either PvP or PvE if essential.
Either way Cage's yellow is 5 mandatory. The question is, is 127 less match damage worth the extra 2K dmg?
First use of Cage Black is almost no difference, 256 dmg is nothing, but the second use gets you an extra 1744 dmg and the stun, but the more I think about pairing IF and Cage, you almost don't want Cage's black either, since the more black makes IF's other 2 better because what's interesting is with the black, IF's purple does what Cage's black does but for an even lower cost.
In the end though with Cage, IMO the boosted damage prevention from PvP and Heroic PvE would be worth giving up the extra dmg on black that I will most of the time have a better use for.
Erm, the point is that you use Cage's black as a finishing blow. The thing about IF is that whatever black ability you have, ideally you want to be able to use it at the end of the match, since you need to hoard black for IF's other abilities. For example, Gamora's black is bad because you need to get it out ASAP, which means you can't hoard for IF. With Cage, it doesn't matter if you use his black immediately or at the end of the match: it does the same amount of damage either way. As a result, I don't think your argument makes sense since if your gameplan is Cage + IF, then you're going to have like 12 black at the end of the match, so thats -1.7k damage from that instantly going from 5->3 black, or potentially 3.4k damage if you have 18 black (which is extremely likely since the first purple accelerates black).
Thinking about it more, I think an average Cage / IF match would go like this:
Step 1: cast purple once or twice. Should easily accelerate black such that you get 18 AP by the end of the match.
Step 2: Gather and hoard random AP, until you can kill them.
Step 3: Cast IF green. Cast IF purple for damage. Finish with Cage black.
Specifically for IF / Cage, 5/3/5 seems like a no brainer. I also don't see how you can say that you will "have a better use for the black" in heroics, because the only black in heroics that I can think of that will always be better than Cage is BP (XF is locked out).0 -
I was just about to say the same thing. I'm glad Kobalt saved me the trouble.xKOBALTx wrote:One thing to consider regarding Heroics though, is how often are they even going to run? Since the Mystique release/Juggs Heroic meltdown clear back at the start of November we've seen only a single run of the others (Oscorp in January). I'm not saying they couldn't make a comeback, but at the moment they aren't being used much. I'm not sure you can fault somebody for not building toward an event type that might feature said character and runs every couple months.
Also, I think Polarity is underestimating how much match damage whittles you down in heroic events. When you're forced to use the same team of 3 or 4 characters for all nodes you can run out of health packs even without getting hit by enemy abilities. This is especially true during the final grind before the sub/event ends (which is now even more important with 8 hour refreshes).0 -
xKOBALTx wrote:One thing to consider regarding Heroics though, is how often are they even going to run? Since the Mystique release/Juggs Heroic meltdown clear back at the start of November we've seen only a single run of the others (Oscorp in January). I'm not saying they couldn't make a comeback, but at the moment they aren't being used much. I'm not sure you can fault somebody for not building toward an event type that might feature said character and runs every couple months.
Let me ask you a question. How much are you planning on using Cage outside of when he is featured or in heroics? If the answer to this question is "A lot, with XF", then sure, 5/5/3 seems good. If your answer is "well, I have XF / GT / Loki so I actually just don't need anyone else (which is exactly what I think, since Loki is a lot better than Cage for matches that actually matter)", then literally the only format where Cage is relevant and his build is going to make a difference is when he is featured in a heroic. Even something like PvP / featured PvEs, you're running him with XF / GT, and those characters are so tanky anyways that the only thing that matters when running with them is 5 yellow.vudu3 wrote:
I was just about to say the same thing. I'm glad Kobalt saved me the trouble.xKOBALTx wrote:One thing to consider regarding Heroics though, is how often are they even going to run? Since the Mystique release/Juggs Heroic meltdown clear back at the start of November we've seen only a single run of the others (Oscorp in January). I'm not saying they couldn't make a comeback, but at the moment they aren't being used much. I'm not sure you can fault somebody for not building toward an event type that might feature said character and runs every couple months.
Also, I think Polarity is underestimating how much match damage whittles you down in heroic events. When you're forced to use the same team of 3 or 4 characters for all nodes you can run out of health packs even without getting hit by enemy abilities. This is especially true during the final grind before the sub/event ends (which is now even more important with 8 hour refreshes).
It's not like it's 0 vs 5 red is the difference between 250 and 0 damage. 3 red still gives, what, a 120 defense tile? This is still a 50% reduction in match damage. When I wipe in a heroic, it isn't from match damage, it's from getting headbutted in the face. Yeah, it'd obviously be nice to reduce match damage to 1, but when choosing between that and turning his black from terrible to pretty good, it seems worth the sacrifice.0 -
Two over-leveled Daken strike tiles will negate a 3 red Cage protect tile. Given how much Daken is an enemy in Heroics 3 red Cage isn't going to protect your team very much. If you under-develop the one thing that makes Cage unique it seems like a missed opportunity.0
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We don't talk about the H-events.0
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Heroic event tends to be more about winning quickly before things get out of hand. Even if you got something like Daken + Grenadier + Grenadier, it's not like you can stop Rocket for an indefinite amount of time when you have the usual heroic roster and any Rocket will easily punch through your protect tiles. Even a Chemical Reaction will comfortably do a couple thousand damage at the least. With the nerf to high level match damage, match damage doesn't matter unless they have Daken or they have goons. But you're not outlasting either in a typical heroic roster so you still have to focus on offense. Sure if your choices for 3*s are like Psylocke/Cage/Falcon/Hulk I guess you got no choice here, but in that case you're already pretty screwed no matter what build you have.0
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I think what Phantron is saying is "F heroics", which is a sentiment I think we can all agree onPhantron wrote:Heroic event tends to be more about winning quickly before things get out of hand. Even if you got something like Daken + Grenadier + Grenadier, it's not like you can stop Rocket for an indefinite amount of time when you have the usual heroic roster and any Rocket will easily punch through your protect tiles. Even a Chemical Reaction will comfortably do a couple thousand damage at the least. With the nerf to high level match damage, match damage doesn't matter unless they have Daken or they have goons. But you're not outlasting either in a typical heroic roster so you still have to focus on offense. Sure if your choices for 3*s are like Psylocke/Cage/Falcon/Hulk I guess you got no choice here, but in that case you're already pretty screwed no matter what build you have.0 -
vudu3 wrote:Two over-leveled Daken strike tiles will negate a 3 red Cage protect tile. Given how much Daken is an enemy in Heroics 3 red Cage isn't going to protect your team very much. If you under-develop the one thing that makes Cage unique it seems like a missed opportunity.
Meh, if boosting the thing that makes him unique is suboptimal to me, I won't do it. I decided to dig deeper on how much his red at 3 vs 5 actually matters. The highest level we'll see in a heroic is ~300, with a standard node being say 160-200. If you look at the link with updated match damage since that match damage nerf for scaled 2*/3*s we had a while back (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... d=64247071), here's what we see:
Level 140 - Roughly 70 / 60 / 50 for all stars.
Level 200 - Roughly 80 / 70 / 63 for all stars
Level 300 - Roughly 90 / 80 / 70 for all stars.
Finally, we can expect Cage to be boosted by 30 or 90 depending on minor or major boost in PvE. Lets take a look at his red boosted.
Level 196 Cage -
Level 3 - 166 Defense
4 - 214 defense
5 - 316 defense
Level 256 Cage -
Level 3 - 217 defense
Level 4 - 280 defense
Level 5- 413 defense
Since you can't really expect the enemy to always match their best color strength, we'll take the secondary strength and how much damage you end up taking.
Level 196 Cage -
Level 140 - 14 damage for level 3, 1 damage for level 5.
Level 200 - 44 damage for level 3, 1 damage for level 5
Level 300 - 74 damage for level 3, 1 damage for level 5
Level 256 Cage
Level 140 - 1 damage in both cases.
Level 200 - 7 damage for level 3, 1 damage for level 5
Level 300 - 23 damage for level 3, 1 damage for level 5.
Lets assume a worst case of say 20 turns of damage for each match. Each heroic has 1 level 300 node, roughly 3 level 200 nodes, 4 level 140 nodes, and a bunch of other low level nodes that don't really matter.
One single clear of a heroic would therefore be: 20 * (74 + 44 * 3 + 14 * 4) = 5240 damage for a 196 Cage with 3 red, and 960 damage for a 256 Cage with 5 red.
Now you could argue "5.2k damage for a single clear is a lot of damage!", but you also have to account for the fact that you have 3 black. So now the question becomes "what percentage of the time will the difference between 3 and 5 black prevent 5.2k damage by killing the enemy sooner than I otherwise would have". Well, given that 5.2k damage is a single Headbutt, or two onslaughts / gravity warps, I don't think it's that farfetched to say that over the course of one clear, having 5 black will probably end up saving you far more ability damage by just killing them faster. Based on this analysis, it still seems like the offensive power of 5/3/5 more than makes up for the defense tile. Also remember that this analysis is considering the worst case of 20 turns per match: obviously matches involving level 140s will take less time, so it ends up doing even less. If you have a 256 Cage, 5 red is complete overkill for obvious reasons.
You could argue that Daken is common in Heroics thus making higher levels of red more important, but optimizing a build for a character that appears in 1/3rd of the time in relevant heroic nodes probably isn't that important.0 -
Man, maybe it's just me being paranoid but it seems like his purple cover is the hardest to get so far.0
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Same. I recently cashed in a bunch of stored tokens, and I got like 5 greens and 0 purplesDmCMugiwara wrote:Man, maybe it's just me being paranoid but it seems like his purple cover is the hardest to get so far.
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