ark123 wrote: Phaserhawk wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Vhailorx wrote: Everyone has been discussing iron fist + xforce. And some others have discussed cage or patch or falcon as potential partners. Those are all good teams, but they are also all looking at top tier characters (except falcon, who is mid-tier, but also an obvious pair for anyone who generates cheap special tiles) But what about less obvious pairs that might be useful for transitioners? Will iron fist play well with gamora? He generates black to fuel her strike tiles, which then double-dip off his attack tile. And so long as she is placed ahead of him, she will tank all of her colors. How about R&G? 5/6 colors covered (though only 3 actives). R&G makes beefy strike tiles to double dip on the attack tile. And true healing is always nice for sustainability. In 2* land, OBW is obvious so long as she can tank at least one of black/purple, and wolvie would generate useful strike tiles. Not sure if there are any other obvious pairings that build off each other (rather than just being two good characters that do their own thing and don't interact). Any other good 'further down the roster' synergies that are worth trying out? The main thing about Iron Fist is that you really really need a good black to unlock his potential. The whole point to IF is that you're supposed to use his purple to accelerate into 12 black, then use his green/purple, followed by the black ability. If you don't have a worthwhile black skill, then that's like making it so that his green and purple cost 12 black + 9 green, or 12 black + 6 purple which is... a lot worse. This is why I am perplexed about people saying that Blade is great with him: the strike tile / attack tile interaction is nice, but the actives just do not play well with each other at all. I did an analysis a lot earlier in the thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24256&start=60#p302731, and I stand by my predictions that those are going to be who Iron Fist should be paired with. Gamora is a weird one: on one hand, purple accelerating into black into strike tiles seems very good. On the other hand, you lose a ton of value on Gamora's black since you need to cast Iron Fist's green and purple before using her black, meaning they can't dip off the strike tiles. For a transitioner with both Gamora (such that Gamora tanks everything) and IF though, I could see this combo working out pretty well, but it tapers off considerably once Gamora tanks less colors. So does IF warrant shifting Cage into 5/3/5? Or is he still better off as a 5/5/3 helper of 4hor? if you have access to any 4*s you want 5/5/3.
Phaserhawk wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Vhailorx wrote: Everyone has been discussing iron fist + xforce. And some others have discussed cage or patch or falcon as potential partners. Those are all good teams, but they are also all looking at top tier characters (except falcon, who is mid-tier, but also an obvious pair for anyone who generates cheap special tiles) But what about less obvious pairs that might be useful for transitioners? Will iron fist play well with gamora? He generates black to fuel her strike tiles, which then double-dip off his attack tile. And so long as she is placed ahead of him, she will tank all of her colors. How about R&G? 5/6 colors covered (though only 3 actives). R&G makes beefy strike tiles to double dip on the attack tile. And true healing is always nice for sustainability. In 2* land, OBW is obvious so long as she can tank at least one of black/purple, and wolvie would generate useful strike tiles. Not sure if there are any other obvious pairings that build off each other (rather than just being two good characters that do their own thing and don't interact). Any other good 'further down the roster' synergies that are worth trying out? The main thing about Iron Fist is that you really really need a good black to unlock his potential. The whole point to IF is that you're supposed to use his purple to accelerate into 12 black, then use his green/purple, followed by the black ability. If you don't have a worthwhile black skill, then that's like making it so that his green and purple cost 12 black + 9 green, or 12 black + 6 purple which is... a lot worse. This is why I am perplexed about people saying that Blade is great with him: the strike tile / attack tile interaction is nice, but the actives just do not play well with each other at all. I did an analysis a lot earlier in the thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24256&start=60#p302731, and I stand by my predictions that those are going to be who Iron Fist should be paired with. Gamora is a weird one: on one hand, purple accelerating into black into strike tiles seems very good. On the other hand, you lose a ton of value on Gamora's black since you need to cast Iron Fist's green and purple before using her black, meaning they can't dip off the strike tiles. For a transitioner with both Gamora (such that Gamora tanks everything) and IF though, I could see this combo working out pretty well, but it tapers off considerably once Gamora tanks less colors. So does IF warrant shifting Cage into 5/3/5? Or is he still better off as a 5/5/3 helper of 4hor?
NorthernPolarity wrote: Vhailorx wrote: Everyone has been discussing iron fist + xforce. And some others have discussed cage or patch or falcon as potential partners. Those are all good teams, but they are also all looking at top tier characters (except falcon, who is mid-tier, but also an obvious pair for anyone who generates cheap special tiles) But what about less obvious pairs that might be useful for transitioners? Will iron fist play well with gamora? He generates black to fuel her strike tiles, which then double-dip off his attack tile. And so long as she is placed ahead of him, she will tank all of her colors. How about R&G? 5/6 colors covered (though only 3 actives). R&G makes beefy strike tiles to double dip on the attack tile. And true healing is always nice for sustainability. In 2* land, OBW is obvious so long as she can tank at least one of black/purple, and wolvie would generate useful strike tiles. Not sure if there are any other obvious pairings that build off each other (rather than just being two good characters that do their own thing and don't interact). Any other good 'further down the roster' synergies that are worth trying out? The main thing about Iron Fist is that you really really need a good black to unlock his potential. The whole point to IF is that you're supposed to use his purple to accelerate into 12 black, then use his green/purple, followed by the black ability. If you don't have a worthwhile black skill, then that's like making it so that his green and purple cost 12 black + 9 green, or 12 black + 6 purple which is... a lot worse. This is why I am perplexed about people saying that Blade is great with him: the strike tile / attack tile interaction is nice, but the actives just do not play well with each other at all. I did an analysis a lot earlier in the thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24256&start=60#p302731, and I stand by my predictions that those are going to be who Iron Fist should be paired with. Gamora is a weird one: on one hand, purple accelerating into black into strike tiles seems very good. On the other hand, you lose a ton of value on Gamora's black since you need to cast Iron Fist's green and purple before using her black, meaning they can't dip off the strike tiles. For a transitioner with both Gamora (such that Gamora tanks everything) and IF though, I could see this combo working out pretty well, but it tapers off considerably once Gamora tanks less colors.
Vhailorx wrote: Everyone has been discussing iron fist + xforce. And some others have discussed cage or patch or falcon as potential partners. Those are all good teams, but they are also all looking at top tier characters (except falcon, who is mid-tier, but also an obvious pair for anyone who generates cheap special tiles) But what about less obvious pairs that might be useful for transitioners? Will iron fist play well with gamora? He generates black to fuel her strike tiles, which then double-dip off his attack tile. And so long as she is placed ahead of him, she will tank all of her colors. How about R&G? 5/6 colors covered (though only 3 actives). R&G makes beefy strike tiles to double dip on the attack tile. And true healing is always nice for sustainability. In 2* land, OBW is obvious so long as she can tank at least one of black/purple, and wolvie would generate useful strike tiles. Not sure if there are any other obvious pairings that build off each other (rather than just being two good characters that do their own thing and don't interact). Any other good 'further down the roster' synergies that are worth trying out?
NorthernPolarity wrote: ark123 wrote: Phaserhawk wrote: So does IF warrant shifting Cage into 5/3/5? Or is he still better off as a 5/5/3 helper of 4hor? if you have access to any 4*s you want 5/5/3. I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT, then what is he good for? Heroics! And in heroics, you don't die to match damage, you die to headbutts, so red isn't as useful. Starting to think that 5/3/5 might be the best build for the people with 4*s: Cage just isn't necessary as XF / GT support when we have Loki / Cyc / and now IF. If you're using Cage with XF, then yeah, 5/5/3 because you're never casting his black over surgical. With GT / in heroics, I dunno..
ark123 wrote: Phaserhawk wrote: So does IF warrant shifting Cage into 5/3/5? Or is he still better off as a 5/5/3 helper of 4hor? if you have access to any 4*s you want 5/5/3.
Phaserhawk wrote: So does IF warrant shifting Cage into 5/3/5? Or is he still better off as a 5/5/3 helper of 4hor?
NorthernPolarity wrote: I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT
ark123 wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT I use him with GT and loki all the time. They're my climbing team. That way I have a yellow that insta-kills a support instead of slightly winding everyone. I sub him for hood later, because hood black on loki green is the bee's knees. Also his black is kinda just bad. You need at least 12 black for it to do anything, and I'm pretty sure most of us can come up with better ways to use 12 black.
NorthernPolarity wrote: ark123 wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT I use him with GT and loki all the time. They're my climbing team. That way I have a yellow that insta-kills a support instead of slightly winding everyone. I sub him for hood later, because hood black on loki green is the bee's knees. Also his black is kinda just bad. You need at least 12 black for it to do anything, and I'm pretty sure most of us can come up with better ways to use 12 black. Do you have an XF? I don't think GT / Loki / Cage is better enough over XF / GT / Loki for me to really change Cage's build specifically to fill that niche. Cage's black is bad when you compare him to Surgical Strike, but literally every single ability in the game is bad when compared to Surgical Strike except Surge / Smite. I wrote my analysis of pairings earlier: there are exactly two better ways to use 12 black: XF and BP. Considering that, I would argue that you have a very high probability of Cage's black being by far the best black when paired with Cage, and one of the best blacks in the game comparatively speaking, meaning that 5 black will be a boon in heroics.
ark123 wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: ark123 wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: I'm not really sold on this. The thing I'm starting to notice about Cage is that, well, I'm not using him with XF / GT. If I'm not using him with XF / GT I use him with GT and loki all the time. They're my climbing team. That way I have a yellow that insta-kills a support instead of slightly winding everyone. I sub him for hood later, because hood black on loki green is the bee's knees. Also his black is kinda just bad. You need at least 12 black for it to do anything, and I'm pretty sure most of us can come up with better ways to use 12 black. Do you have an XF? I don't think GT / Loki / Cage is better enough over XF / GT / Loki for me to really change Cage's build specifically to fill that niche. Cage's black is bad when you compare him to Surgical Strike, but literally every single ability in the game is bad when compared to Surgical Strike except Surge / Smite. I wrote my analysis of pairings earlier: there are exactly two better ways to use 12 black: XF and BP. Considering that, I would argue that you have a very high probability of Cage's black being by far the best black when paired with Cage, and one of the best blacks in the game comparatively speaking, meaning that 5 black will be a boon in heroics. For climbing? Yes, he's much better than xforce. Since he makes it so you don't lose health on any of your characters. My xf isn't usable, but I'd much rather have hood loki goddess when im over 800 than goddess loki/hood cage. But climbing to 600-800? He's a godsend.
Phaserhawk wrote: IF at 3/5/5 is a no brainer, but yeah the Cage dilema. I'm also starting to wondering if 5/3/5 is the best pairing for Cage, but then again I have X-Force and I would only use Cage for 3 things. Early PvP climbs, Heroic, and as needed in either PvP or PvE if essential. Either way Cage's yellow is 5 mandatory. The question is, is 127 less match damage worth the extra 2K dmg? First use of Cage Black is almost no difference, 256 dmg is nothing, but the second use gets you an extra 1744 dmg and the stun, but the more I think about pairing IF and Cage, you almost don't want Cage's black either, since the more black makes IF's other 2 better because what's interesting is with the black, IF's purple does what Cage's black does but for an even lower cost. In the end though with Cage, IMO the boosted damage prevention from PvP and Heroic PvE would be worth giving up the extra dmg on black that I will most of the time have a better use for.
NorthernPolarity wrote: Phaserhawk wrote: IF at 3/5/5 is a no brainer, but yeah the Cage dilema. I'm also starting to wondering if 5/3/5 is the best pairing for Cage, but then again I have X-Force and I would only use Cage for 3 things. Early PvP climbs, Heroic, and as needed in either PvP or PvE if essential. Either way Cage's yellow is 5 mandatory. The question is, is 127 less match damage worth the extra 2K dmg? First use of Cage Black is almost no difference, 256 dmg is nothing, but the second use gets you an extra 1744 dmg and the stun, but the more I think about pairing IF and Cage, you almost don't want Cage's black either, since the more black makes IF's other 2 better because what's interesting is with the black, IF's purple does what Cage's black does but for an even lower cost. In the end though with Cage, IMO the boosted damage prevention from PvP and Heroic PvE would be worth giving up the extra dmg on black that I will most of the time have a better use for. Erm, the point is that you use Cage's black as a finishing blow. The thing about IF is that whatever black ability you have, ideally you want to be able to use it at the end of the match, since you need to hoard black for IF's other abilities. For example, Gamora's black is bad because you need to get it out ASAP, which means you can't hoard for IF. With Cage, it doesn't matter if you use his black immediately or at the end of the match: it does the same amount of damage either way. As a result, I don't think your argument makes sense since if your gameplan is Cage + IF, then you're going to have like 12 black at the end of the match, so thats -1.7k damage from that instantly going from 5->3 black, or potentially 3.4k damage if you have 18 black (which is extremely likely since the first purple accelerates black). Thinking about it more, I think an average Cage / IF match would go like this: Step 1: cast purple once or twice. Should easily accelerate black such that you get 18 AP by the end of the match. Step 2: Gather and hoard random AP, until you can kill them. Step 3: Cast IF green. Cast IF purple for damage. Finish with Cage black. Specifically for IF / Cage, 5/3/5 seems like a no brainer. I also don't see how you can say that you will "have a better use for the black" in heroics, because the only black in heroics that I can think of that will always be better than Cage is BP (XF is locked out).
xKOBALTx wrote: One thing to consider regarding Heroics though, is how often are they even going to run? Since the Mystique release/Juggs Heroic meltdown clear back at the start of November we've seen only a single run of the others (Oscorp in January). I'm not saying they couldn't make a comeback, but at the moment they aren't being used much. I'm not sure you can fault somebody for not building toward an event type that might feature said character and runs every couple months.
vudu3 wrote: xKOBALTx wrote: One thing to consider regarding Heroics though, is how often are they even going to run? Since the Mystique release/Juggs Heroic meltdown clear back at the start of November we've seen only a single run of the others (Oscorp in January). I'm not saying they couldn't make a comeback, but at the moment they aren't being used much. I'm not sure you can fault somebody for not building toward an event type that might feature said character and runs every couple months. I was just about to say the same thing. I'm glad Kobalt saved me the trouble. Also, I think Polarity is underestimating how much match damage whittles you down in heroic events. When you're forced to use the same team of 3 or 4 characters for all nodes you can run out of health packs even without getting hit by enemy abilities. This is especially true during the final grind before the sub/event ends (which is now even more important with 8 hour refreshes).
Phantron wrote: Heroic event tends to be more about winning quickly before things get out of hand. Even if you got something like Daken + Grenadier + Grenadier, it's not like you can stop Rocket for an indefinite amount of time when you have the usual heroic roster and any Rocket will easily punch through your protect tiles. Even a Chemical Reaction will comfortably do a couple thousand damage at the least. With the nerf to high level match damage, match damage doesn't matter unless they have Daken or they have goons. But you're not outlasting either in a typical heroic roster so you still have to focus on offense. Sure if your choices for 3*s are like Psylocke/Cage/Falcon/Hulk I guess you got no choice here, but in that case you're already pretty screwed no matter what build you have.
vudu3 wrote: Two over-leveled Daken strike tiles will negate a 3 red Cage protect tile. Given how much Daken is an enemy in Heroics 3 red Cage isn't going to protect your team very much. If you under-develop the one thing that makes Cage unique it seems like a missed opportunity.
DmCMugiwara wrote: Man, maybe it's just me being paranoid but it seems like his purple cover is the hardest to get so far.