NorthernPolarity wrote: Pucco, I don't buy the money making argument at all: wouldn't having a more diverse metagame make Demiurge even more money? Instead of 4or being OP, now Starlord / XF / 4or / Fury are all equally as OP, so people will buy 4x as much stuff.
Phantron wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: We're getting too much into the world of hypotheticals here so I will concede my first point because it's too dependent on the new tank character and theorycrafting at that point. Thoughts on the Fury buff? I don't think making a second X Force is the answer and as long as he's not on that level of brokenness, he's not going to be viable in PvP because his color coverage is very bad. He doesn't have green/black/red which are the power colors in general. Even if he's as strong as X Force, conceding black and green to your opponent (which you'd have to if you run Fury + Thor) sounds like an accident waiting to happen, but if you match them then you're skipping your turn and that's also asking for problems. Like Thor he's adversely affected by the PvP format itself, because if you can choose all 3 guys then having one guy on all the weak colors is perfectly fine, but you can't choose all 3 guys. I thought about the Thor issue some more. If there is no X Force, how do you even get rid of the first featured guy with 5K HP? In general, the featured guy is someone who cannot contribute something meaningful but asking him to have 5K HP is still not asking too much. Right now you drop an X Force and that's that. Without X Force, where's the first 5K damage coming from? It's obviously not coming from Thor, but the next best 3 match move is likely Fireball or The Oldest Trick and both are red. If you need a 4 match move, that obviously slows down the game greatly. And let's just say The Oldest Trick somehow isn't red anymore, it's still not remotely the same thing to rely on a 3 turn CD to kill someone versus dropping an X Force on them.
NorthernPolarity wrote: We're getting too much into the world of hypotheticals here so I will concede my first point because it's too dependent on the new tank character and theorycrafting at that point. Thoughts on the Fury buff?
Phantron wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Pucco, I don't buy the money making argument at all: wouldn't having a more diverse metagame make Demiurge even more money? Instead of 4or being OP, now Starlord / XF / 4or / Fury are all equally as OP, so people will buy 4x as much stuff. I don't buy the money making argument either but they'd have to free us from the tyranny of the current featured + your 2 best guy format for that to matter. Otherwise even if those guys are all equally OP you'd still just use the first 2 you maxed out, or the 2 that have the best color coverage. From just a color coverage point of view, if they're all equally powerful, then the best team would be X Force + anyone, as X Force + anyone means you're only missing one color (Thor = missing purple, Fury = missing red, Star-Lord = missing blue), while missing X Force would mean you miss at least green + black.
NorthernPolarity wrote: Phantron wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Okay, so lets assume the metagame shifts and this does happen. Since 4* tanks are now one-shot smite immune, the metagame would now consist of LadyThor + that tank: the exact same problem of LadyThor nullifying every 4* below 10k , making those team compositions suboptimal. The same problem exists with LadyThor NOT promoting roster diversity. REGARDLESS of whether these tanks are released, LadyThor is still singlehandedly warping the metagame. Now, I've thought about this topic some more and a large part of the issue is exactly this metagame of "every other 4* is of the 6800 class, so ladythor is able to one shot everyone still". So you know what, I'm going to stop saying the word ending in rf, and instead propose something different: let's try buffing just Fury to be as good as X-Force: Purple -> cost reduced from 12 to 9. This makes it essentially X-Force's green. Yellow -> AP thresholds reduced from 5 to 3, so full iso boosts gets you there. Demolition = surgical. Escape Plan = X-Force. Yellow = additional utility that is more offensive than recovery. See what happens to the metagame. If LadyThor is STILL being oppressive and dominating every single team composition, then at that point she definitely deserves a nerf right? We would have two characters who are as good as X-Force, who everyone agrees is a reasonable 4* that is significantly better than a 3*, and if LadyThor is still being put on every single team (even in Fury's PvP), then we can all agree that she should be toned down to be as good as X-Force. Correct? Er, assuming the new guy isn't better than Thor, you'd have a hard time taking out the first character even with the general weakening of featured character. You can't use Thor because Smite doesn't even do that much damage by itself, and unless the new tank has a move that's close to X Force (which would make him quite overpowered) he's not going to be able to put away a ~5K featured guy either. Even if the new guy has a move that does put away a 5K guy, it'd likely be a 4-match move looking at how 4*s are designed, and that'd drastically slow down your ability to win quickly. If you're fighting against either Loki or The Hood, getting the 4-match in such a configuration can take quite a while. We're getting too much into the world of hypotheticals here so I will concede my first point because it's too dependent on the new tank character and theorycrafting at that point. Thoughts on the Fury buff?
Phantron wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Okay, so lets assume the metagame shifts and this does happen. Since 4* tanks are now one-shot smite immune, the metagame would now consist of LadyThor + that tank: the exact same problem of LadyThor nullifying every 4* below 10k , making those team compositions suboptimal. The same problem exists with LadyThor NOT promoting roster diversity. REGARDLESS of whether these tanks are released, LadyThor is still singlehandedly warping the metagame. Now, I've thought about this topic some more and a large part of the issue is exactly this metagame of "every other 4* is of the 6800 class, so ladythor is able to one shot everyone still". So you know what, I'm going to stop saying the word ending in rf, and instead propose something different: let's try buffing just Fury to be as good as X-Force: Purple -> cost reduced from 12 to 9. This makes it essentially X-Force's green. Yellow -> AP thresholds reduced from 5 to 3, so full iso boosts gets you there. Demolition = surgical. Escape Plan = X-Force. Yellow = additional utility that is more offensive than recovery. See what happens to the metagame. If LadyThor is STILL being oppressive and dominating every single team composition, then at that point she definitely deserves a nerf right? We would have two characters who are as good as X-Force, who everyone agrees is a reasonable 4* that is significantly better than a 3*, and if LadyThor is still being put on every single team (even in Fury's PvP), then we can all agree that she should be toned down to be as good as X-Force. Correct? Er, assuming the new guy isn't better than Thor, you'd have a hard time taking out the first character even with the general weakening of featured character. You can't use Thor because Smite doesn't even do that much damage by itself, and unless the new tank has a move that's close to X Force (which would make him quite overpowered) he's not going to be able to put away a ~5K featured guy either. Even if the new guy has a move that does put away a 5K guy, it'd likely be a 4-match move looking at how 4*s are designed, and that'd drastically slow down your ability to win quickly. If you're fighting against either Loki or The Hood, getting the 4-match in such a configuration can take quite a while.
NorthernPolarity wrote: Okay, so lets assume the metagame shifts and this does happen. Since 4* tanks are now one-shot smite immune, the metagame would now consist of LadyThor + that tank: the exact same problem of LadyThor nullifying every 4* below 10k , making those team compositions suboptimal. The same problem exists with LadyThor NOT promoting roster diversity. REGARDLESS of whether these tanks are released, LadyThor is still singlehandedly warping the metagame. Now, I've thought about this topic some more and a large part of the issue is exactly this metagame of "every other 4* is of the 6800 class, so ladythor is able to one shot everyone still". So you know what, I'm going to stop saying the word ending in rf, and instead propose something different: let's try buffing just Fury to be as good as X-Force: Purple -> cost reduced from 12 to 9. This makes it essentially X-Force's green. Yellow -> AP thresholds reduced from 5 to 3, so full iso boosts gets you there. Demolition = surgical. Escape Plan = X-Force. Yellow = additional utility that is more offensive than recovery. See what happens to the metagame. If LadyThor is STILL being oppressive and dominating every single team composition, then at that point she definitely deserves a nerf right? We would have two characters who are as good as X-Force, who everyone agrees is a reasonable 4* that is significantly better than a 3*, and if LadyThor is still being put on every single team (even in Fury's PvP), then we can all agree that she should be toned down to be as good as X-Force. Correct?
kensterr wrote: Here's a solution that doesn't require D3 to do any nerfing to 4* that will please Arondite and those who agree with him, while also pleasing those who oppose the nerf. Arondite can proceed to delete his two maxed 4* Thors. He won't be feeling that she's OP since he can't use her anymore. Others who feel that she isn't OP can continue to use her. D3 can continue selling her covers for those players who cannot get it via PVP or PVE placement and are willing to spend cash on her covers. It's a WIN-WIN-WIN situation for everyone. Thank you and TGIF.
Dauthi wrote: I find it funny how the OP still hasn't replied to the 3* Thor vs 4* Thor argument when scaled equivalently. When 3* is boosted close to, but still under 4*s maximum level his yellow did 3.7k(ish) damage, and green did 3.6k ish damage (x2 to the main target). This equaled out to around 18k damage across the team, why is this damage ignored just because it isn't targeted on one character? 3* Thor can do this without having a double edged sword at his throat like 4* with charged tiles to boot. Nine green dropping on the board is also more likely to create cascades of alternate colors creating more AP generation and damage, vs 4*s random charge tile drops and wasted turns having to match these.Their HP is also similarly equivalent when 3* is scaled.
daibar wrote: I still think that an appropriate nerf to Thoress would be to change the value of charged tiles: Make them 2X AP, 4X Damage as opposed to 3X AP & 3X Damage. It'd greatly reduce the effectiveness of Power Surge, slightly increase the chance that the opponent can escape from perma-stun, and make damage easier to understand. Match 3: 1 charged tile -> damage 167% -> 200% normal match 3 2 charged tiles -> damage 233% -> 300% normal match 3 3 charged tiles -> damage 300% -> 400% normal match 3
Dauthi wrote: I find it funny how the OP still hasn't replied to the 3* Thor vs 4* Thor argument when scaled equivalently. When 3* is boosted close to, but still under 4*s maximum level his yellow did 3.7k(ish) damage, and green did 3.6k ish damage (x2 to the main target). This equaled out to around 18k damage across the team, why is this damage ignored just because it isn't targeted on one character? 3* Thor can do this without having a double edged sword at his throat like 4* with charged tiles to boot. Nine green dropping on the board is also more likely to create cascades of alternate colors creating more AP generation and damage, vs 4*s random charge tile drops and wasted turns having to match these.Their HP is also similarly equivalent when 3* is scaled. I can understand OP's feelings towards how strong she is offensively, I don't think he understands how useless she is defensively and underestimates this downfall. When more 4*s come out that are competent in both defense and offense like X-Force, she may be replaced for the same reason characters like 3* cap and 2* mags are replaced in PVP. I can see maybe a slight nerf in how many charge tiles she drops with her blue, but that is about all I can get on board with. She is a character that has risk/reward and deserves to get boosted damage due to this.
lokiagentofhotness wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Phantron wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Okay, so lets assume the metagame shifts and this does happen. Since 4* tanks are now one-shot smite immune, the metagame would now consist of LadyThor + that tank: the exact same problem of LadyThor nullifying every 4* below 10k , making those team compositions suboptimal. The same problem exists with LadyThor NOT promoting roster diversity. REGARDLESS of whether these tanks are released, LadyThor is still singlehandedly warping the metagame. Now, I've thought about this topic some more and a large part of the issue is exactly this metagame of "every other 4* is of the 6800 class, so ladythor is able to one shot everyone still". So you know what, I'm going to stop saying the word ending in rf, and instead propose something different: let's try buffing just Fury to be as good as X-Force: Purple -> cost reduced from 12 to 9. This makes it essentially X-Force's green. Yellow -> AP thresholds reduced from 5 to 3, so full iso boosts gets you there. Demolition = surgical. Escape Plan = X-Force. Yellow = additional utility that is more offensive than recovery. See what happens to the metagame. If LadyThor is STILL being oppressive and dominating every single team composition, then at that point she definitely deserves a nerf right? We would have two characters who are as good as X-Force, who everyone agrees is a reasonable 4* that is significantly better than a 3*, and if LadyThor is still being put on every single team (even in Fury's PvP), then we can all agree that she should be toned down to be as good as X-Force. Correct? Er, assuming the new guy isn't better than Thor, you'd have a hard time taking out the first character even with the general weakening of featured character. You can't use Thor because Smite doesn't even do that much damage by itself, and unless the new tank has a move that's close to X Force (which would make him quite overpowered) he's not going to be able to put away a ~5K featured guy either. Even if the new guy has a move that does put away a 5K guy, it'd likely be a 4-match move looking at how 4*s are designed, and that'd drastically slow down your ability to win quickly. If you're fighting against either Loki or The Hood, getting the 4-match in such a configuration can take quite a while. We're getting too much into the world of hypotheticals here so I will concede my first point because it's too dependent on the new tank character and theorycrafting at that point. Thoughts on the Fury buff? Actually let's buff SG, Gamora, Beast, Bagman (bagman!!), and the 50 other characters that aren't used often because they're either not very good or not very fast. I still only see a few 3* characters in PVPs: 3* Thor (tank, massive damage), LDaken/Patch (strike tiles, healing), Hulk (tank, anger cascades), LCap (baby tank, AP regenerates infinitely)...and then the support characters like Loki, Hood and - sometimes I see Blade and CMags...yeah that's it? Not all characters are created equal, not all characters are meant for PVP. Characters are massively different in levels just based on what they can do. Nerfing TGT won't make the meta game more diverse - the meta game is always going to be dominated by 2 characters that people find work best for them. Boosting Fury might change the meta game....back to XF/Fury. Um, yay? What will that accomplish. Fury? I used to fight Fury/XF teams and if he gets his blue off I can say goodbye to my entire team just because demolition is killer (and apparently keeps working even after one trap goes off - although that might be a bug, I'm not sure.) Characters should be nerfed because they break the game, ie. you can end it in 2 moves when using the character, and not otherwise. TGT is great - she's not that great.
NorthernPolarity wrote: So you want us to stay at a stagnant metagame forever? This doesn't make any sense. Everyone agrees that X-Force is <= LadyThor. If we buff Fury to X-Force tier, how will the metagame shift to XFury? The metagame would shift to Fury / X-Force / LadyThor, which hey, at least supports more team compositions than it currently is at (three instead of one!). The entire point of the buff is to make a 4* character that is regarded as barely better than 3*s to 4* level, which is what I thought everyone wanted.
lokiagentofhotness wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: So you want us to stay at a stagnant metagame forever? This doesn't make any sense. Everyone agrees that X-Force is <= LadyThor. If we buff Fury to X-Force tier, how will the metagame shift to XFury? The metagame would shift to Fury / X-Force / LadyThor, which hey, at least supports more team compositions than it currently is at (three instead of one!). The entire point of the buff is to make a 4* character that is regarded as barely better than 3*s to 4* level, which is what I thought everyone wanted. Well will you look at that. We're back at "why don't we buff other characters instead of nerfing 4Thor". I completely agree! Let's leave Lady Thor alone and buff the other characters - I have plenty of unused characters that could use a buff.
JBruno wrote: Hood become more dangerous alone with his yellow change but i still prefer the older yellow version with ap generator.