**** Thor (Goddess of Thunder) **** [PRE 2015-03]

Unknown

Shadow wrote:

Mattfal wrote:

Both xforce and thour need nerfs, but for different reasons. Xforce needs a NERF because he is so much faster than everyone else in the game. Thour needs a NERF because her massive health allows her to have the time to collect the ap to use her op powers. I do feel like 4* should be better than 3*, but i think they should be closer to nick fury power (but not too close) than god-like power

Seriously, stop saying TGT has too much health. A tank has generally 1.5x health the baseline health for any particular star rating. Why should 4* be any different.

Generally, tanks of a particular star rating are comparable in health to the glass of the star rating above it.

IM35 2700 health comparable to C Storm 2940 health.
Ares 5880 health comparable to Human Torch 5950 health.
3* tanks have around 10k health and Nick Fury has 9590 health.

And tanks of a particular star rating are about 1.5x the standard health rating for that star level.

2* standard health is around 4k and tanks in 2* land have around 6k health.
3* standard health is 6800 and tanks in the 3* range have around 10k health.

For 4*, if we take XF or even StarLord as being the standard health characters, then TGT at 16k health simply follows the same pattern as the lower tier stars.

Saying that TGT has too much health is the same as a 2* player complaining that a 3* tank at 10k has too much health.

I wasn't asking to nerf her high health. i am saying that her high health allows her enough time to gather all the ap she needs to win

Unknown

papa07 wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Unless you have something like passive: "Extra effective against a guy who has green, yellow, and black as his primary colors", whoever can counter X Force will be the next imbalance.

Passive ability - Place 1 visible trap tile on each color that does not have one at the start of every turn.

If tile is matched or destroyed by enemy team, all 6 go off for 1500 damage each. If you match or destroy, tile shifts to another location.

X-Force countered

That'd do very little because Surgical Strike almost always puts at least one tile of that color back, not to mention when Surgical Strike resolves, it typically ends the game.

Unknown

The only reason to nerf Thor would be if D3 makes an implicit acknowledgement of never intending to address the ever declining of quality of the 3* featured hero. That is, if you map out the rate 3/4 heroes are released, and assuming 4*s are supposed to be better than 3* and that featured heroes are always 3* and biased toward new 3*s, you'll eventually hit a point where having a base level 90 3* is a luxury not even the strongest players can afford because all your iso is going to be tied up to the new 4*s. In this world Thor is probably overpowered. While all you need is a featured hero with 10K HP (which is a 6800 HP class 3* at max level after level boost) that does absolutely nothing else to drastically slow down her combo, it is getting to a point where even expecting your featured hero to be a 10K punching bag is a luxury for the strongest players.

She occupies the niche of being possibly the best 2on2 character on the game, and that didn't matter back in the past where you'd expect the featured hero to be nearly always maxed level at the high end. I remember seeing Daredevil maxed when he sucked at the high end, and that's because with relatively few 4*s the top players can easily keep leveling up 3*s and as long as you got enough HP on the featured hero, this makes Thor useless because she can't use any of her moves with all 3 characters up. Smite is just a weak red nuke used alone, while Power Surge can easily cost you the game if the other side isn't completely stunned, and Striking Distance does a totally irrelevent amount of damage. This is no longer possible because it just doesn't make sense to keep leveling up the weak 3*s being introduced when you have all those 4*s around. And sure maybe Elektra and Star-Lord isn't really that good, but you might as well level them up over yet another 3* that's not any stronger than the other 10 you already have. But this eventually leads to the conclusion where even the strongest rosters end up with very weak featured heroes. This is an anomaly and should be corrected in some other way, but if they never intend to correct this anomaly then I guess you can nerf Thor instead, even though that's totally the wrong solution.

babinro

I stand by my comments that X-Force is in another league entirely because his true healing allows you to play him all day without a single health pack while Thor gradually gets whittled down each battle.

That said, would the game benefit from a Thor nerf?
Having completed her and used her for a couple months now I'm inclined to say...yes.

What makes Thor slightly OP in my mind is the length of the stun when combined with charged tile benefits. This allows her to simply auto-win 95% of her matches when there are 2 enemies left and she has 10 red + 9 blue. Stun one, down the other. Generate absurd AP advantage over the next 4 turns typically re-stunning continuously until which point you win with a second smite or other offensive skill. This happens FAR too consistently and makes her skill combo pretty absurd.

She trivializes the game quite a bit as a result on offense especially when combined with ISO AP boosts.

If I were to nerf Thor I wouldn't do so by adjusting her damage. If you're spending 19 AP on a single target attack than it had better be amazing with a 4* character. I think any change would simply need to address the lockdown nature of the game post initial combo.

1) Remove blue charged tiles completely making her only generate red and yellow charged tiles. This would be my preferred nerf if one ever got implemented. It doesn't impact the power of her skills but simply addresses the core issue (IMO). Thor can no longer reliably stun lock after her initial combo.

Another option....

2) Change her blue from a 4 turn stun to a 2 turn TEAM stun. This would continue to make her skill amazing but statistically lower the odds of infinite combos. It would require some testing to determine if this was too powerful when used right away vs a 3 person team. I fear this change may actually be a buff so I'm hesitant to firmly stand by it.

Note: I'm also not against a reduction of hit points on the character in general. I get that she should have more toughness than Fury/X-Force but as is it's just absurdly high. I'd be fine seeing her topped off at 12,000 and making that the general cap for 4* with exception of Devil Dino of course (since his hp is what makes the character truly unique). This hp change is barely a nerf and really wouldn't 'solve' any of the issues though.

Unknown

Do you have have Thor maxed out? Im pretty sure if you had her maxed out you wouldn't be posting this thread. Yet another noob complaining about an OP character. Why dont you try earning her covers, level to 270 and enjoy playing with an awesome 4*.

FR3L4NCER out....

Arondite

FR3L4NCER wrote:

Do you have have Thor maxed out? Im pretty sure if you had her maxed out you wouldn't be posting this thread. Yet another noob complaining about an OP character. Why dont you try earning her covers, level to 270 and enjoy playing with an awesome 4*.

FR3L4NCER out....

Already been stated that on one of my accounts, I do. Please don't just look at the title and post without reviewing the content of the thread.

Glad "freelancer" is out, seeing as he had nothing to contribute.

Unknown

Very true. Same as this thread.

Unknown

10 AP + 9 AP is nothing like 19 AP of one color in this game, though you can get comparable damage on a 4 + 3 match move that aren't even meant to synergize. For example, Battleplan into Rage of the Panther is also 3+4 matches and will do about 15K total damage and put you in a seriously advantageous position. A 4 turn stun isn't particularly overpowered, otherwise Daredevil would be pretty overpowered with his recurring 2 turn stun. Thor probably shouldn't be doing that much damage while having that kind of HP but the philsophy with 4* seems to be that they at least get all their extra HP for free before any balance consideration comes in. Using Thor 3* as baseline and adding the HP for free, she isn't particularly overpowered compared to her 3* counterpart (Thor also does comparable damage with a 4+3 match move, here we'll assume you started with 3 match worth of greens to combo into a Call the Storm after Thunder Strike) until you consider the difficulty of getting a 10K HP punching bag out of your featured character, and that's a problem with the format/game direction, not THor.

Arondite

Phantron wrote:

10 AP + 9 AP is nothing like 19 AP of one color in this game, though you can get comparable damage on a 4 + 3 match move that aren't even meant to synergize. For example, Battleplan into Rage of the Panther is also 3+4 matches and will do about 15K total damage and put you in a seriously advantageous position. A 4 turn stun isn't particularly overpowered, otherwise Daredevil would be pretty overpowered with his recurring 2 turn stun. Thor probably shouldn't be doing that much damage while having that kind of HP but the philsophy with 4* seems to be that they at least get all their extra HP for free before any balance consideration comes in. Using Thor 3* as baseline and adding the HP for free, she isn't particularly overpowered compared to her 3* counterpart (Thor also does comparable damage with a 4+3 match move, here we'll assume you started with 3 match worth of greens to combo into a Call the Storm after Thunder Strike) until you consider the difficulty of getting a 10K HP punching bag out of your featured character, and that's a problem with the format/game direction, not THor.

I think the problem most people have with the nuke isn't the 10K damage, it's the fact that once you're down to 2 v X, thor can delete one character if they're under 10K and effectively deal ∞ to the second target thanks to perma-stun under the extra ap and damage generation from the charge tiles.

She's not nearly as effective in a format where her red can't instantly gib a target, where partner 3 isn't taken out in the opening turns of a game, or where her blue can't be trivially chained for infinite stuns. If any of those things are fixed, she'll be balanced while still being top dog. But as long as the environment encourages 2v2's and as long as she can walk over any 2 characters in the game simultaneously, she's overpowered.

Shadow

OK, so TGT is OP and should be nerfed. She stuns 1 and then takes out the other standard health character.

While we're at it, could we also nerf BP and LT please. BP strike tiles followed by rage practically takes out the entire 3 members of a 3* standard health team so he's obviously OP. LT has a similar effect with Thunder Strike going into Call the Storm. They are obviously too strong on offense.

standard health for a 4* refers to around 10k health and for a 3* refers to 6800 health.

Also, Ares can 1 shot any 2* with his green. He should be nerfed as well.

Since we're at it, why stop there? All characters with strong AoE skills need to be nerfed as well... DP can down almost any team.

We should have a game with 60 support characters.

Hmm...

Arondite

Shadow wrote:

OK, so TGT is OP and should be nerfed. She stuns 1 and then takes out the other standard health character.

While we're at it, could we also nerf BP and LT please. BP strike tiles followed by rage practically takes out the entire 3 members of a 3* standard health team so he's obviously OP. LT has a similar effect with Thunder Strike going into Call the Storm. They are obviously too strong on offense.

standard health for a 4* refers to around 10k health and for a 3* refers to 6800 health.

Also, Ares can 1 shot any 2* with his green. He should be nerfed as well.

Since we're at it, why stop there? All characters with strong AoE skills need to be nerfed as well... DP can down almost any team.

We should have a game with 60 support characters.

Hmm...

10k team damage vs 10k single target + infini-stun...

The two are hard to compare.

Look, if you don't think she's broken, argue that point. Don't bring up false equivalencies that don't actually closely compare in any way.

Shadow

Arondite wrote:

10k team damage vs 10k single target + infini-stun...

The two are hard to compare.

Look, if you don't think she's broken, argue that point. Don't bring up false equivalencies that don't actually closely compare in any way.

Except that, it is equivalent if you're talking about being OP in offense. In fact, an argument can be made that BP is even more OP than TGT in that area. TGT needs that you down 1 first then surge another then smite the third and hope to pick up more blue during those 4 turns for it to be considered infinite. By the time rage hits, chances are the first simply goes down. And you simply need to do another 4 matches without even having to target a particular color to down the other 2 standard health 3*s.

The reason why BP isn't considered OP is because there are many other 3* tanks around. TGT is the first of the 4* tanks not counting Devil Dino souvenir. As soon as other 4* tanks are released, you cannot simply smite the third character anymore.

Unknown

Shadow wrote:

The reason why BP isn't considered OP is because there are many other 3* tanks around. TGT is the first of the 4* tanks not counting Devil Dino souvenir. As soon as other 4* tanks are released, you cannot simply smite the third character anymore.

Another 4* tank isn't going to change this because it's very hard to forsee any balanced character that'd be a tank and is better than X Force overall. As long as the featured 3* remains weak due to format (heavily biased toward new 3* that nobody can possibly afford to level up), this problem isn't going away. I don't think this is Thor's fault. To illustrate, suppose on all PvP events you can now exchange your featured character for a training dummy with 10K HP who has no match damage (so he can never tank until he's the only person left) and no abilities. While that sounds like an awfully weak character, such a character would likely be far better than what you can expect out of your 3* in most events. For example, we got Category-S going on right now, and if I had this character instead of Storm, he'd have more HPs (to prevent Smite combos) and not use up green/black AP for X Force. The next event is Star-Lord, and again, it's hard to imagine anyone would have Star-Lord at a level where he'd be more useful than a 10K guy who does absolutely nothing just to stall Smite combos. It's almost a joke when you think about how pathetic the featured character usually turns out to be in an event that is supposed to try to sell you their strength. This does need to be fixed but that's not because Thor is overpowered. If Thor 3* was a different character compared to Thor 4*, there would be nothing guaranteed about a stun lock combo in an X Force/Thor 3*/Thor 4* team because you have to go through 26K HP (X Force + Thor) before you can achieve this, and sure you got Thor 3*'s incredible stats on your side, but it's still 26K damage you need to do.

NorthernPolarity

Shadow wrote:

Arondite wrote:

10k team damage vs 10k single target + infini-stun...

The two are hard to compare.

Look, if you don't think she's broken, argue that point. Don't bring up false equivalencies that don't actually closely compare in any way.

Except that, it is equivalent if you're talking about being OP in offense. In fact, an argument can be made that BP is even more OP than TGT in that area. TGT needs that you down 1 first then surge another then smite the third and hope to pick up more blue during those 4 turns for it to be considered infinite. By the time rage hits, chances are the first simply goes down. And you simply need to do another 4 matches without even having to target a particular color to down the other 2 standard health 3*s.

The reason why BP isn't considered OP is because there are many other 3* tanks around. TGT is the first of the 4* tanks not counting Devil Dino souvenir. As soon as other 4* tanks are released, you cannot simply smite the third character anymore.

Okay, so lets assume the metagame shifts and this does happen. Since 4* tanks are now one-shot smite immune, the metagame would now consist of LadyThor + that tank: the exact same problem of LadyThor nullifying every 4* below 10k , making those team compositions suboptimal. The same problem exists with LadyThor NOT promoting roster diversity. REGARDLESS of whether these tanks are released, LadyThor is still singlehandedly warping the metagame.

Now, I've thought about this topic some more and a large part of the issue is exactly this metagame of "every other 4* is of the 6800 class, so ladythor is able to one shot everyone still". Furthermore, since X-Force and LadyThor are the only two characters at the power level that people deem is worth of 4*s, we could make a more informed decision if we could see what the metagame would be more like in a world of 4*s. So you know what, I'm going to stop saying the word ending in rf, and instead propose something different: let's try buffing just Fury to be as good as X-Force:
Purple -> cost reduced from 12 to 9. This makes it essentially X-Force's green.
Yellow -> AP thresholds reduced from 5 to 3, so full iso boosts gets you there.

Demolition = surgical. Escape Plan = X-Force. Yellow = additional utility that is more offensive than recovery.

See what happens to the metagame. If LadyThor is STILL being oppressive and dominating every single team composition, then at that point she definitely deserves a nerf right? We would have two characters who are as good as X-Force, who everyone agrees is a reasonable 4* that is significantly better than a 3*, and if LadyThor is still being put on every single team (even in PvPs where having a good yellow and purple would be CLEARLY better than having LadyThor, such as LCap), then we can all agree that she should be toned down to be as good as X-Force. Correct?

Note that of course Elektra and Starlord should be balanced, but they have weirder abilities that are harder to balance. Fury is a no brainer. Demolition is already as damaging as surgical, so the only thing we need to do is make escape plan the same power level as X-Force, and Avenger's assemble actually trigger all of its random abilities consistently in order to make him look as good as X-Force.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Okay, so lets assume the metagame shifts and this does happen. Since 4* tanks are now one-shot smite immune, the metagame would now consist of LadyThor + that tank: the exact same problem of LadyThor nullifying every 4* below 10k , making those team compositions suboptimal. The same problem exists with LadyThor NOT promoting roster diversity. REGARDLESS of whether these tanks are released, LadyThor is still singlehandedly warping the metagame.

Now, I've thought about this topic some more and a large part of the issue is exactly this metagame of "every other 4* is of the 6800 class, so ladythor is able to one shot everyone still". So you know what, I'm going to stop saying the word ending in rf, and instead propose something different: let's try buffing just Fury to be as good as X-Force:
Purple -> cost reduced from 12 to 9. This makes it essentially X-Force's green.
Yellow -> AP thresholds reduced from 5 to 3, so full iso boosts gets you there.

Demolition = surgical. Escape Plan = X-Force. Yellow = additional utility that is more offensive than recovery.

See what happens to the metagame. If LadyThor is STILL being oppressive and dominating every single team composition, then at that point she definitely deserves a nerf right? We would have two characters who are as good as X-Force, who everyone agrees is a reasonable 4* that is significantly better than a 3*, and if LadyThor is still being put on every single team (even in Fury's PvP), then we can all agree that she should be toned down to be as good as X-Force. Correct?

Er, assuming the new guy isn't better than Thor, you'd have a hard time taking out the first character even with the general weakening of featured character. You can't use Thor because Smite doesn't even do that much damage by itself, and unless the new tank has a move that's close to X Force (which would make him quite overpowered) he's not going to be able to put away a ~5K featured guy either. Even if the new guy has a move that does put away a 5K guy, it'd likely be a 4-match move looking at how 4*s are designed, and that'd drastically slow down your ability to win quickly. If you're fighting against either Loki or The Hood, getting the 4-match in such a configuration can take quite a while.

Unknown

Arondite,

i understand why you say that thoress is OP, especially when there are only 2 enemies left. But i have to say that she's not OP to the point she needs to be nerfed.

Reasons/Comparisons:

• A 4*s is supposed to be OP and overrule 3*s and below. I still remember when forumites angry because 4*s were super sucky and worse than 2*.
• Did you ever experience pre-nerf Ragnarok? Thunderclap 3x, sniper rifle on turn 1. that's the real OP in the game to the point that he's got to be stealth-nerfed.
• Or how about pre-nerf Spidey? where lvl 100 spidey, lvl 78 mn.mag can defeat virtually any opponent?
• Black Panther's black was also nerfed about 2 weeks after his release. He dealt about 4600 damage to enemy team?

and one last reason which i think more important than anything else:
D3 need a money maker, revenue generator, and thoress is one of them. There will always be characters that are more OP than the others. If MPQ isn't making good money, then the game will be shutted down and we all can say goodbye to MPQ. Of course we don't want that to happen.

According to thinkgaming.com, MPQ is making 30k/day now. Compared to about 15k/day about a year ago. and we should be happy for them.

So thoress as she is now, it's good for everyone.

NorthernPolarity

Phantron wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Okay, so lets assume the metagame shifts and this does happen. Since 4* tanks are now one-shot smite immune, the metagame would now consist of LadyThor + that tank: the exact same problem of LadyThor nullifying every 4* below 10k , making those team compositions suboptimal. The same problem exists with LadyThor NOT promoting roster diversity. REGARDLESS of whether these tanks are released, LadyThor is still singlehandedly warping the metagame.

Now, I've thought about this topic some more and a large part of the issue is exactly this metagame of "every other 4* is of the 6800 class, so ladythor is able to one shot everyone still". So you know what, I'm going to stop saying the word ending in rf, and instead propose something different: let's try buffing just Fury to be as good as X-Force:
Purple -> cost reduced from 12 to 9. This makes it essentially X-Force's green.
Yellow -> AP thresholds reduced from 5 to 3, so full iso boosts gets you there.

Demolition = surgical. Escape Plan = X-Force. Yellow = additional utility that is more offensive than recovery.

See what happens to the metagame. If LadyThor is STILL being oppressive and dominating every single team composition, then at that point she definitely deserves a nerf right? We would have two characters who are as good as X-Force, who everyone agrees is a reasonable 4* that is significantly better than a 3*, and if LadyThor is still being put on every single team (even in Fury's PvP), then we can all agree that she should be toned down to be as good as X-Force. Correct?

Er, assuming the new guy isn't better than Thor, you'd have a hard time taking out the first character even with the general weakening of featured character. You can't use Thor because Smite doesn't even do that much damage by itself, and unless the new tank has a move that's close to X Force (which would make him quite overpowered) he's not going to be able to put away a ~5K featured guy either. Even if the new guy has a move that does put away a 5K guy, it'd likely be a 4-match move looking at how 4*s are designed, and that'd drastically slow down your ability to win quickly. If you're fighting against either Loki or The Hood, getting the 4-match in such a configuration can take quite a while.

We're getting too much into the world of hypotheticals here so I will concede my first point because it's too dependent on the new tank character and theorycrafting at that point. Thoughts on the Fury buff?

NorthernPolarity

Pucco wrote:

Arondite,

i understand why you say that thoress is OP, especially when there are only 2 enemies left. But i have to say that she's not OP to the point she needs to be nerfed. She's slower than X-Force

Reasons/Comparisons:

• A 4*s is supposed to be OP and overrule 3*s and below. I still remember when forumites angry because 4*s were super sucky and worse than 2*.
• Did you ever experience pre-nerf Ragnarok? Thunderclap 3x, sniper rifle on turn 1. that's the real OP in the game to the point that he's got to be stealth-nerfed.
• Or how about pre-nerf Spidey? where lvl 100 spidey, lvl 78 mn.mag can defeat virtually any opponent?
• Black Panther's black was also nerfed about 2 weeks after his release. He dealt about 4600 damage to enemy team?

and one last reason which i think more important than anything else:
D3 need a money maker, revenue generator, and thoress is one of them. There will always be characters that are more OP than the others. If MPQ isn't making good money, then the game will be shutted down and we all can say goodbye to MPQ. Of course we don't want that to happen.

According to thinkgaming.com, MPQ is making 30k/day now. Compared to about 15k/day about a year ago. and we should be happy for them.

So thoress as she is now, it's good for everyone.

Pucco, I don't buy the money making argument at all: wouldn't having a more diverse metagame make Demiurge even more money? Instead of 4or being OP, now Starlord / XF / 4or / Fury are all equally as OP, so people will buy 4x as much stuff.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

We're getting too much into the world of hypotheticals here so I will concede my first point because it's too dependent on the new tank character and theorycrafting at that point. Thoughts on the Fury buff?

I don't think making a second X Force is the answer and as long as he's not on that level of brokenness, he's not going to be viable in PvP because his color coverage is very bad. He doesn't have green/black/red which are the power colors in general. Even if he's as strong as X Force, conceding black and green to your opponent (which you'd have to if you run Fury + Thor) sounds like an accident waiting to happen, but if you match them then you're skipping your turn and that's also asking for problems. Like Thor he's adversely affected by the PvP format itself, because if you can choose all 3 guys then having one guy on all the weak colors is perfectly fine, but you can't choose all 3 guys.

I thought about the Thor issue some more. If there is no X Force, how do you even get rid of the first featured guy with 5K HP? In general, the featured guy is someone who cannot contribute something meaningful but asking him to have 5K HP is still not asking too much. Right now you drop an X Force and that's that. Without X Force, where's the first 5K damage coming from? It's obviously not coming from Thor, but the next best 3 match move is likely Fireball or The Oldest Trick and both are red. If you need a 4 match move, that obviously slows down the game greatly. And let's just say The Oldest Trick somehow isn't red anymore, it's still not remotely the same thing to rely on a 3 turn CD to kill someone versus dropping an X Force on them.

Arondite

Pucco wrote:

Arondite,

i understand why you say that thoress is OP, especially when there are only 2 enemies left. But i have to say that she's not OP to the point she needs to be nerfed.

Reasons/Comparisons:

• A 4*s is supposed to be OP and overrule 3*s and below. I still remember when forumites angry because 4*s were super sucky and worse than 2*.
  
  Thats fine, she should overrule 3*s. As is, she overrules anything that can't swallow 12,109 damage smiling. That includes the other 4 stars not named wolverine.
• Did you ever experience pre-nerf Ragnarok? Thunderclap 3x, sniper rifle on turn 1. that's the real OP in the game to the point that he's got to be stealth-nerfed.
• Or how about pre-nerf Spidey? where lvl 100 spidey, lvl 78 mn.mag can defeat virtually any opponent?
• Black Panther's black was also nerfed about 2 weeks after his release. He dealt about 4600 damage to enemy team?

Naming things that were even more broken / OP doesn't illustrate a lack thereof in Thor.

and one last reason which i think more important than anything else:
D3 need a money maker, revenue generator, and thoress is one of them. There will always be characters that are more OP than the others. If MPQ isn't making good money, then the game will be shutted down and we all can say goodbye to MPQ. Of course we don't want that to happen.

According to thinkgaming.com, MPQ is making 30k/day now. Compared to about 15k/day about a year ago. and we should be happy for them.

So thoress as she is now, it's good for everyone.

If anything, a weaker 4or / stronger other 4stars would result in more sales because there are more heroes to buy. As is you can just buy out your 4or and then use her to win whatever else you want.