Captain Marvel + Daken Rebalance Discussion

Unknown

BelligerentGnu wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Vanapak wrote:

After the update he will be creating ONE power 46 strike tile. so he is being nerfed too and will be much easier to clear his tiles.

The number of tiles makes no difference in the long run. Let's say there's a spot that's easily cleared and another spot that's difficult to clear. If you place 2 tiles you expect the easy to clear spot to get cleared while keeping 50% of your total strength for a while. When placing only one tile it's 50% chance it'll be cleared right away and 50% it won't be cleared for a while. The overall strength of tile went down some, though with Daken it's really easy to fill the board with strike tiles so that could even itself out. Daken's regeneration is very strong and the change will now allow him to actually own tiles compared to other 2*s which is a massive boost to his relative power. Placing fewer tiles makes him weaker against characters like Captian America or Moonstone, but I doubt anyone actually uses them at the 2* tier.

I disagree - sure, there are easy and difficult strike tiles to clear, but generating two strike tiles per match will fill all the 'difficult' tiles faster. Also, two strike tiles will generally fill every available red tile on the board pretty quickly - which means that even easily cleared tiles will last a turn or two before dying. That extra damage adds up.

But if you fill up all the red tiles at 2X28 then you could get more value out of 1X46 by being able to have more total strike tile strength on board.

It's probably a nerf just because the overall strength indeed gone down, but the number of tile placed has no direct effect on the power. It does make Chemical Reaction a very bad idea, but Chemical Reaction is almost always a bad idea to use unless it can kill someone on offense, and being worse on defense doesn't matter as much because you lose the vast majority of your defense games. As long as Daken isn't perceived as extra weak, it'd likely be the same as Magneto, e.g. very good on offense and so-so on defense, but nobody is going to go out of their way to purposely look for a team with Magneto to attack.

Unknown

Do we really want strong 2* Daken? DA are lacking blue ability now so next time when we will have Hunt event with upgraded Daken Florida sub will be EVEN worse...

Unknown

Malcoran wrote:

Do we really want strong 2* Daken? DA are lacking blue ability now so next time when we will have Hunt event with upgraded Daken Florida sub will be EVEN worse...

We will not see the Hunt for a while.

First they will rerun Unstable ISO8

Then they will rerun all of their other stuff, including:

-Hulk
Heroic ____________
-Prodigal Sun
The Simulator
Heroic ____________
-Thick as Thieves
Heroic ____________
-Blah Blah Brotherhood
Heroic ____________
The Simulator
Heroic ____________

And then The Hunt.

Notice I left out "new content."

Unknown

Malcoran wrote:

Do we really want strong 2* Daken? DA are lacking blue ability now so next time when we will have Hunt event with upgraded Daken Florida sub will be EVEN worse...

This change makes Daken stronger on offense and weaker on defense, so it'd be easier for PvE when Daken is on defense the vast majority of the time. It's a boost to offense because having equal levels now allows Daken to own tiles, and he's one of the best tanks in the game due to his regen. You actually lose damage from his blue because strike tiles are almost certainly going to do more damage if not converted for a temporary damage. On offense, that's not a problem since you can just not use the ability, and occasionally it's worth the long run damage loss if you know it's going to kill someone (or end the game). On defense, the blue is very detrimental to your own team, since the AI doesn't have any targetting priority and will just waste your valuable strike tiles for a relatively weak hit that will almost certainly be absorbed by a tanky character. In fact the change to 1 strike tiles makes this abliity even worse than it was before.

Unknown

Ghast wrote:

Notice I left out "new content."

So has D3 (rimshot).

DD-The-Mighty

papa07 wrote:

BelligerentGnu wrote:

I disagree - sure, there are easy and difficult strike tiles to clear, but generating two strike tiles per match will fill all the 'difficult' tiles faster. Also, two strike tiles will generally fill every available red tile on the board pretty quickly - which means that even easily cleared tiles will last a turn or two before dying. That extra damage adds up.

But if the release is accurate, it goes from 2 tiles at 28 (total of 56), to 1 tile of 46. That is a significant damage jump for each tile on the board, even as they take longer to place.

That works great in theory against an ai that doesn't move tiles. But in execution Dakens ability at 5/5 purple to drop 2 strike tiles and fill the board quickly vastly beats out a single slightly stronger strike tile per match. his ability to keep the tiles flowing is where the strength is at. Especially when he will be eliminating them himself with his active. 5/5 purple on 2* Daken is in no way some secret buff. its a nerf. plain and simple.

On the upside in PVE he will take a much higher level to reach broken proportions. He has been a rollover on defense in pve since the 1st time they nerfed his strike tiles. now with the gutting ofhis heal his lower health makes him a powder-puff.

This is clearly a push to make the 3 star version the superior sought after Daken (in they do indeed keep his 2 tile generation at 5/5p).

Unknown

I'm withholding judgment until I see him in action, but I think it is a neutral move to 2* Daken. The extra 16 levels have a large impact on Daken's abilities as a tank, as currently he only covers Thor on Green, where at 94, he covers all RGY (with proper placement).

I think the sneaky good pairing will be Daken/Torch, as Daken will cover Green and Black and provide strike tiles that work with recurring green and black attacks.

Again though, won't know for sure until he goes into action

orionpeace

papa07 wrote:

where at 94, he covers all RGY (with proper placement).

By "proper placement", you mean put him in the middle, right? Isn't that the position that has preference over other Heroes if they have the same value for the tile color?

Leugenesmiff

I've got two purple covers for three star Daken, and it still says my third will give plus 20%, which is nowhere on either old or new, nor was the plus 20% listed for adding the second purple which I did two days ago. Everyone has commented on how the description for black is wrong, has no one else noticed the purple mistake?

Unknown

orionpeace wrote:

papa07 wrote:

where at 94, he covers all RGY (with proper placement).

By "proper placement", you mean put him in the middle, right? Isn't that the position that has preference over other Heroes if they have the same value for the tile color?

Its middle, and I believe left then right

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Malcoran wrote:

Do we really want strong 2* Daken? DA are lacking blue ability now so next time when we will have Hunt event with upgraded Daken Florida sub will be EVEN worse...

This change makes Daken stronger on offense and weaker on defense, so it'd be easier for PvE when Daken is on defense the vast majority of the time. It's a boost to offense because having equal levels now allows Daken to own tiles, and he's one of the best tanks in the game due to his regen. You actually lose damage from his blue because strike tiles are almost certainly going to do more damage if not converted for a temporary damage. On offense, that's not a problem since you can just not use the ability, and occasionally it's worth the long run damage loss if you know it's going to kill someone (or end the game). On defense, the blue is very detrimental to your own team, since the AI doesn't have any targetting priority and will just waste your valuable strike tiles for a relatively weak hit that will almost certainly be absorbed by a tanky character. In fact the change to 1 strike tiles makes this abliity even worse than it was before.

I'd forward an argument that the 1 strike tile change is perhaps to condition the 2** crowd into believing that 5 in Purple is not mandatory, for both 2** and 3*** builds.

5 Black is pretty much a given, if a player does not want a self-downing Daken (4 Black is borderline tolerable as an absolute minimum to avoid suiciding). The reason why players went 5 Purple for 3*** Daken is because of double strike tiles. Without this incentive for 2** Daken, players might be convinced that 5 Purple is not mandatory and allow for builds that prioritize Chemical Reaction. In this way, 4/5/4, 4/4/5, or 3/5/5 builds are viable if a player in this scenario values the nuke from Chemical Reaction as valuable. 515 + (373 * 4) = 2007, which for 5 AP, equates into 401.4 damage/AP. For a 2** star, that is a rather impressive damage ratio.

Yes, there are costs involved with creating strike tiles and losing them, but a 5 Blue Daken build is not likely to care about the value of his strike tiles.

For further fun, combine with 2** Wolv. Daken gathers green to fuel Wolvie's Feral Claws. Sitting on only 3 Red AP, Wolvie places 2 strike tiles per 6 AP Feral Claws cast, stacking on top of the two Daken places from the two green matches. Daken nukes all four tiles with Chemical Reaction for 2000 damage for 5 Blue. That's not bad AT ALL.

Trisul

Is the new 2* Daken worth leveling up if I already have 2* Wolvie maxed?

DD-The-Mighty

Trisul wrote:

Is the new 2* Daken worth leveling up if I already have 2* Wolvie maxed?

Guessing by your post count your new. Keep everything that is remotely useful. It will make your life a lot easier. especially in the 2* range and up.

Except bag-man. he blows. Max him when you have nothing better to do.

Unknown

There is always something better to do than level Bagman. Like, I dunno, level a second or third or fourth or ... or nth OBW (if you are considering leveling bagman, instead just invest in another black widow).

As for Daken v. Wolverine, they fulfill very different roles, and cover different colors. Wolverine is a big damage character - you run him a little for the strike tiles but mostly for the ability to say, "ooh, 12 red AP! Goodbye, character I don't like!" Daken, meanwhile, is pure support - you run him because he generates strike tiles like crazy, has awesome regeneration, and tanks purple and black, which adds to characters like Thor and Ares, who are real gems in the 2* roster. His true value, however, comes from combining him with OBW. OBW's espionage basically doubles the strike tile damage you have, which very quickly leads to match-3s doing upwards of 500 damage. I maintain that in the 2* range, there is not a single 3-man team that can even hold a candle to OBW+Daken+Ares (other than the obvious OBW+Daken+Thor, which is not as good but Thor and Ares are pretty interchangeable). Your match damage just goes through the roof. Daken is absolutely worth leveling. He simply makes the most best strike tiles in his weight category.

Unknown

How have they taken this much time and still not clarified the typos in the changes to 3* Daken's heal? Do they really hold us in such low regard that they can't take a couple minutes for this? Whether it is a nerf or not, the uncertainty is worse. Just give us the bad news already.

Unknown

Just want to know if the new 2* Daken Blue cover would be added as a reward in the Prologue? There was a node that provided Purple/Black and would make sense to add it there, seeing as there are a few other nodes that reward all 3 covers for a 2*

Unknown

Put down the torches and pitchforks folks.... the Daken changes are POSTPONED.

Lakestone wrote:

In other news, we have put the changes to Daken on hold for now. The folks here raised a really good point that the timing of the Daken rebalance wasn't good. When we have a lock on the direction we will be taking those changes, we'll message them here.

Link to Announcement

Unknown

Lyrian wrote:

Put down the torches and pitchforks folks.... the Daken changes are POSTPONED.

Lakestone wrote:

In other news, we have put the changes to Daken on hold for now. The folks here raised a really good point that the timing of the Daken rebalance wasn't good. When we have a lock on the direction we will be taking those changes, we'll message them here.

Link to Announcement

I would have preferred they scrap the changes rather than postpone them but I can leave in hope they'll just leave him be and sort out some of the others, CMag i'm looking at you!

Unknown

AlucardUK wrote:

I would have preferred they scrap the changes rather than postpone them but I can leave in hope they'll just leave him be and sort out some of the others, CMag i'm looking at you!

That original announcement is still a mess of bad copy paste. Do we even really know what the changes are? The strike tile changes they might have gotten right, but the healing? Who even knows. And now they're making it sound like they're going to revisit the entire thing? Maybe? "...the direction we will be taking those changes..." is a delightfully nebulous phrase. So now The Sword of Nerfocles hangs dangerously over yet another character. Heavy is the head that wears the crown, indeed.

Unknown

Yeah good point. The original announcement was just a mess and full or typo's. The update doesn't really tell us anything other than they have paused the update. It may still come out exactly as they intended or they may re-think or even scrap it..... who knows