Spudgutter said:@fightforthedream has it right, the game has a pretty decent situation of rock/paper/scissors going on right now (which is kind of unique for the life of this game) and all people keep doing is complain about how rock keeps beating scissors without acknowledging that paper even exists.
Spudgutter said: tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: fight4thedream said:So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them. Only when paired with specific other characters of the next tier above. And even then, that is just your opinion. There was a time that 3* iron man was a "great pick" over a lot of 4*, and no one complained that i can remember. There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6. Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go. I think you dont know what bishop does if you think he needs specific teammates to punish every 5* characters basic match 3.It is not an opinion to say that when a 5* champed character makes a match 3, bishop will jump to the front take that hit throw the damage back roughly 200% then gain 5 blue ap. That's in game fact. Well, yes, that part is a fact. I am not disputing that. But that isn't the point. If he keeps doing it, he dies. And when he is dead, he is no longer helping or doing anything. You aren't winning every match if you pair him with most of the next tier above.
tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: fight4thedream said:So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them. Only when paired with specific other characters of the next tier above. And even then, that is just your opinion. There was a time that 3* iron man was a "great pick" over a lot of 4*, and no one complained that i can remember. There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6. Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go. I think you dont know what bishop does if you think he needs specific teammates to punish every 5* characters basic match 3.It is not an opinion to say that when a 5* champed character makes a match 3, bishop will jump to the front take that hit throw the damage back roughly 200% then gain 5 blue ap. That's in game fact.
Spudgutter said: tiomono said: fight4thedream said:So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them. Only when paired with specific other characters of the next tier above. And even then, that is just your opinion. There was a time that 3* iron man was a "great pick" over a lot of 4*, and no one complained that i can remember. There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6. Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go.
tiomono said: fight4thedream said:So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them.
fight4thedream said:So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap.
Daredevil217 said: Spudgutter said:@fightforthedream has it right, the game has a pretty decent situation of rock/paper/scissors going on right now (which is kind of unique for the life of this game) and all people keep doing is complain about how rock keeps beating scissors without acknowledging that paper even exists. I hear everything you are saying, even if I don't agree (most of which I don't). You keep saying "everyone wins" and alluding to prizes, which has already been explained so many times that it isn't about that. You're defining "a win" and telling everyone else they should be happy with their victory, but not acknowledging the large vocal "nerf Bishop" camp who don't gauge wins and losses by hitting 2k in sim.Rock beats down all the scissors in the tier above him and paper is the skip button (which you don't mind because you still get your rewards).All of these arguments were made with Gambit by the way. Didn't make him not broken, and didn't make him not get nerfed.
tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: fight4thedream said:So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them. Only when paired with specific other characters of the next tier above. And even then, that is just your opinion. There was a time that 3* iron man was a "great pick" over a lot of 4*, and no one complained that i can remember. There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6. Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go. I think you dont know what bishop does if you think he needs specific teammates to punish every 5* characters basic match 3.It is not an opinion to say that when a 5* champed character makes a match 3, bishop will jump to the front take that hit throw the damage back roughly 200% then gain 5 blue ap. That's in game fact. Well, yes, that part is a fact. I am not disputing that. But that isn't the point. If he keeps doing it, he dies. And when he is dead, he is no longer helping or doing anything. You aren't winning every match if you pair him with most of the next tier above. He is only good till he dies? Lol. That's the best argument I have ever heard. Even if grocket died to make his strikes people would use him. The advantages bishop grants to his team during his suicide spiral far outweighs what the opponent can do in the same span.
Spudgutter said: tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: fight4thedream said:So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them. Only when paired with specific other characters of the next tier above. And even then, that is just your opinion. There was a time that 3* iron man was a "great pick" over a lot of 4*, and no one complained that i can remember. There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6. Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go. I think you dont know what bishop does if you think he needs specific teammates to punish every 5* characters basic match 3.It is not an opinion to say that when a 5* champed character makes a match 3, bishop will jump to the front take that hit throw the damage back roughly 200% then gain 5 blue ap. That's in game fact. Well, yes, that part is a fact. I am not disputing that. But that isn't the point. If he keeps doing it, he dies. And when he is dead, he is no longer helping or doing anything. You aren't winning every match if you pair him with most of the next tier above. He is only good till he dies? Lol. That's the best argument I have ever heard. Even if grocket died to make his strikes people would use him. The advantages bishop grants to his team during his suicide spiral far outweighs what the opponent can do in the same span. You definitely missed my point. I am not disputing he will jump in front and hit back for 4k. I'm saying He stops being good *when* he dies. He is no use after a few jumps in front and is dead."There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6. Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go."Thor pretty much works with everyone, should he be nerfed? Okoyepretty much works with everyone, should she be nerfed?
HoundofShadow said: Since nobody can come to an agreement except to agree to disgree regarding nerfing certain characters, why not think of different teams to deal with Bishop while the dev ponders over this grave matter? Has anyone tried Dr Ock, Silver Surfer and Prof X against Bishop teams? Because Prof X's match 4 triggers often, Dr Ock stands to gain and become immune to stun. Match damage wise, Dr Ock's is comparable to the last few 5*.Assuming same level, they will tank the following colours:Surfer - RedDr Ock - Green and BlackProf X - Blue, Purple, Yellow and TUIf Prof X gets stun, you can collect purple without triggering Bishop.The above strategy could probably be replicated across different teams. Let the dominant character whose teammates don't overlap with his colours get stunned by Bishop. Let's say only X character are proficient in red, green and blue, find two other teammates who ovelap each other in yellow, black and purple. While that character is stunned, collect the stunned teammates' colour since they will be dealing only ~250-300 match-3 damage. Once that teammate is back, activate his power to take down Bishop team.
tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: fight4thedream said:So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them. Only when paired with specific other characters of the next tier above. And even then, that is just your opinion. There was a time that 3* iron man was a "great pick" over a lot of 4*, and no one complained that i can remember. There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6. Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go. I think you dont know what bishop does if you think he needs specific teammates to punish every 5* characters basic match 3.It is not an opinion to say that when a 5* champed character makes a match 3, bishop will jump to the front take that hit throw the damage back roughly 200% then gain 5 blue ap. That's in game fact. Well, yes, that part is a fact. I am not disputing that. But that isn't the point. If he keeps doing it, he dies. And when he is dead, he is no longer helping or doing anything. You aren't winning every match if you pair him with most of the next tier above. He is only good till he dies? Lol. That's the best argument I have ever heard. Even if grocket died to make his strikes people would use him. The advantages bishop grants to his team during his suicide spiral far outweighs what the opponent can do in the same span. You definitely missed my point. I am not disputing he will jump in front and hit back for 4k. I'm saying He stops being good *when* he dies. He is no use after a few jumps in front and is dead."There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6. Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go."Thor pretty much works with everyone, should he be nerfed? Okoyepretty much works with everyone, should she be nerfed? Thor only really shines on offense when he starts at 50% health. On defense he is manageable. Bishop forces a 5* character to deal with him and his strengths on turn 1 offense or defense. My level 456 iceman does 2565 damage for a match 3 on yellow. That's 6 plus a tad hits at minimum my level 282 bishop can take if all my matches are yellow. Thats 18 yellow gained and 15,390 damage dealt to the enemy team. Meanwhile bishop dealt 23,964 damage and gained 30 blue and this does not account what damage and ap his team gets to gain on their own turn. If he can stun his opponent that is also up to 36 ap he destroyed.His presence in a match all the way up to his death outpaces the damage and ap gain every low level 5* champ in the game can put out. No other character puts your team at such a huge advantage in such a short time.If I had wasp I would run her with bishop just to see how few hits I get. I can leave any combo or trio of 5* out on defence and I will get beat down. Or I can leave bishop and banner out like I am doing right now in the cap pvp and enjoy my free shield because players just like you think skipping is the most viable strategy vs the overwhelming might of banner so my float point gets raised because people just do not want to fight banner.
purplemur said: I will acknowledge the vocal nerf bishop camp. But its not that large. Approx 50 people....or broken down over the slices- the T10. right now it’s 4-1 buffs over nerf. You are in the overwhelming minority. Recognize that.How about at any point, someone from that 50 player group deign to acknowledge the harm they would be asking for? Could at any point the sheer awful stink of their condescending assuredness of their position being absolutely unassailable because if you don’t see how “broken” he is than your a fool be self evident? Like do you guys see how it comes off like an expert condemning Galileo? Even in the face of contrary evidence? Cuz there have been plenty of condolences and acknowledged the unfun prospect of facing him exclusively after breaking float. There have been plenty of attempts to offer help. But all those 50 do is hammercap home about broken broken unfair unfair shouldn’t have to not use my 5s etc. Are any of those 50 4* players? Are any of those 50 not in T50 alliances or get that placement themselves? Do any of those 50 ever play in scl 6-7-8? Have you tried bringing gamora to a bishop fight? Seriously try something different.sidenote - the definition insanity is “the state of being mentally ill, madness” the whole trying the same thing and expecting different results is called the scientific method. But back to whining about how hard it is to take all the top prizes......
BriMan2222 said: tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: Spudgutter said: tiomono said: fight4thedream said:So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them. Only when paired with specific other characters of the next tier above. And even then, that is just your opinion. There was a time that 3* iron man was a "great pick" over a lot of 4*, and no one complained that i can remember. There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6. Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go. I think you dont know what bishop does if you think he needs specific teammates to punish every 5* characters basic match 3.It is not an opinion to say that when a 5* champed character makes a match 3, bishop will jump to the front take that hit throw the damage back roughly 200% then gain 5 blue ap. That's in game fact. Well, yes, that part is a fact. I am not disputing that. But that isn't the point. If he keeps doing it, he dies. And when he is dead, he is no longer helping or doing anything. You aren't winning every match if you pair him with most of the next tier above. He is only good till he dies? Lol. That's the best argument I have ever heard. Even if grocket died to make his strikes people would use him. The advantages bishop grants to his team during his suicide spiral far outweighs what the opponent can do in the same span. You definitely missed my point. I am not disputing he will jump in front and hit back for 4k. I'm saying He stops being good *when* he dies. He is no use after a few jumps in front and is dead."There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6. Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go."Thor pretty much works with everyone, should he be nerfed? Okoyepretty much works with everyone, should she be nerfed? Thor only really shines on offense when he starts at 50% health. On defense he is manageable. Bishop forces a 5* character to deal with him and his strengths on turn 1 offense or defense. My level 456 iceman does 2565 damage for a match 3 on yellow. That's 6 plus a tad hits at minimum my level 282 bishop can take if all my matches are yellow. Thats 18 yellow gained and 15,390 damage dealt to the enemy team. Meanwhile bishop dealt 23,964 damage and gained 30 blue and this does not account what damage and ap his team gets to gain on their own turn. If he can stun his opponent that is also up to 36 ap he destroyed.His presence in a match all the way up to his death outpaces the damage and ap gain every low level 5* champ in the game can put out. No other character puts your team at such a huge advantage in such a short time.If I had wasp I would run her with bishop just to see how few hits I get. I can leave any combo or trio of 5* out on defence and I will get beat down. Or I can leave bishop and banner out like I am doing right now in the cap pvp and enjoy my free shield because players just like you think skipping is the most viable strategy vs the overwhelming might of banner so my float point gets raised because people just do not want to fight banner. Lmao. I saw your bishop and banner team in pvp and skipped them. I know my newly champed lvl 464 BRB and lvl 454 Thor were no match for banners might.
OJSP said: purplemur said:Good points about the debate going around in circles. Spudgutter said:I want people to have better stuff. I want more competition. I want more people to have fun with the game and stick around to keep the lights on. It took me 2200 days to get here, and i would rather someone be able to get here much faster than that.Basically, if i have to choose between a minor annoyance that has no bearing on my game(while simultaneously making it easier for those that came after me) and a nerf that will have hardly any impact on my game(while neutering someone helpful to the aforementioned group) i will choose the first option 10 times out of 10. Besides, what difference is it to you if there is a character that has very little impact on your game, while that character is helping many other people? You aren't concerned with them, you just oppose a "broken" character strictly on principle? If that is the case, then just say so and i will leave it alone.Just want to clarify where I stood, as I saw 2 opinions I agreed with. I actually don't like how the word broken is being thrown around so much when a character or a team is strong. But Bishop is broken for another different reason.Like I said before in the other threads, I want Bishop to be fixed so he stops producing AP at 10 despite cascades. His behaviour when hit by cascades is surely not as it's intended, because he could also get downed in 1 turn without making any AP due to how the damage is calculated (order or operation). At the moment, the behaviour is unpredictable. There are many times when I try to make a weak match, but I still end up losing out in the end. That's broken.By fixing that, they are also fixing Elektra and HammerCap (and maybe a few other characters that I can't think of immediately). But, there are a lot of characters that have become weak and are rarely used because of power creep. If we fix Bishop before addressing the others, a lot of players would lose one of their best characters without any options to deal with the problems they were dealing with by using him.So, buff other characters first, and maybe fix Bishop if you have time after.
purplemur said:Good points about the debate going around in circles.
Spudgutter said:I want people to have better stuff. I want more competition. I want more people to have fun with the game and stick around to keep the lights on. It took me 2200 days to get here, and i would rather someone be able to get here much faster than that.Basically, if i have to choose between a minor annoyance that has no bearing on my game(while simultaneously making it easier for those that came after me) and a nerf that will have hardly any impact on my game(while neutering someone helpful to the aforementioned group) i will choose the first option 10 times out of 10. Besides, what difference is it to you if there is a character that has very little impact on your game, while that character is helping many other people? You aren't concerned with them, you just oppose a "broken" character strictly on principle? If that is the case, then just say so and i will leave it alone.
LLohm said: the answer to this isn’t get a BSSM?I am surprised since the answer to bishop was get Silver Surfer or play downwards and use a team of 4*. Which by the way is an awful counter since bishop out damages SS 2x and using a team of 4* against bishop + a 5* is a dangerous proposition.If somebody gets a kitty which is a 5* btw, shouldn’t this player have a right for it to perform better than a whole 4* team? Seeing as 5* are the highest tier possible at the moment?Both SS and BSSM are in classics dilution. The mechanics of bishop is obviously wrong when it forces 5* players to not match 3.It deserves to be changed. 4* players either get BSS or their own kitty. This may not go down so well but I do think that if the other player tries hard with a 5* kitty, you either move up or live with it.
tiomono said: BSSM does not counter kitty though. He counters strike tiles which kitty cannot make.
It sucks to only face the same thing: Dark avengers anyone?!? and I would hate to be trapped in a repetitive prison of the same thing all the time like the reign of Gambit- where the ONLY way was to have a mirror so....gambitgambitgambit that familiarity bred contempt.
I wish that those players who are being sapped of joy by the bishopwall could enjoy their game more. When I want ALL players to enjoy the game, that fully includes 550 soul stone wielding legends of the game. If Bishop prevents that, something should change.
But it just isn’t a nerf.
First off because he works as intended; He is being condemned for being a Heretic for saying the game revolves around strategy, not brute force speed. Bishop is (among many other things) a 4* tool for the huge disparity in 5*match dam that is faced constantly in PvP. He is great at removal, he self accelerates. He is balanced in the trade off that he dies all the time. He is actually well built and good at what he does. How many times has Moonstone melted your face with a late game Photon Blast? We all have. Bishop is great for that. There are too many examples already given for his usefulness.
Then second: the characters power set fits rather well with the flavor : he eats an energy blast straight on and pushes it right back overpowered. It is an interesting thoughtwork on its own. A mutant that can absorb/ store and discharge the energy used against; how do you defeat him when your team is hard hitting killers? It is like mutant power judo. I think as a character (much like Gambit) he is well liked by fans.
The real crux is : he has made top-end MMR suck. Not fun, boring, grindiestgrind that ever grindgrinded. That is where your argument has the most validity: in its anecdotal experience. It’s not fun for you; that is enough. Although the scope is limited: those that are affected are all long-term good customers. They are passionate about the game and deserve to enjoy the game they love.
But that complaint has been painted over by all these “evidences” of how the idea of the kit being every sort of devil inspired chicanery. That being “forced” to switch up the teams you use is anathema to the concept of match 3, that every single match- every single time a PvP is loaded it is against him, that there is absolutely no way to beat him without losing 300 points. He’s a witch he’s a witch !(turned me into a newt once).
and all the time. All the time with nerf bishop. All.the.time. not cute like dazzler clue solvers were, Just all the time with nerf bishop. It rings flat. Hitting the same note.
I would love to join you and talk about how silly it is that your thorkoye was dismantled by a 4* combo that you didn’t see coming, I would love to laugh about overclocked in the way we all have the shared grief of an opening M5 against TeenJean, I would like to talk about the silliest use of blue AP bank possible but:Nope. Nerf bishop. that is the sum of it. Nerf or the game is ruined.
If I thought that nerfing him would actually make the MMR above float anything but the same ol same then I would just agree to nerf him and get on withit. But it wouldn’t. nerfing him won’t solve your problems and acting like a problem for you is a priority for the game is alienating to everyone who isn’t affected but would join the chorus of Fix Bishop.
Q: It’s not a nerf.
beepbeep- What is; the solution to The Bishop Problem.
We would also have accepted: updating MMR, level capping/min level requirement, passive counter skill, modest adjustments to trigger thresholds, or any of the many ideas that have been offered.
It is not a nerf.
purplemur said: It sucks to only face the same thing: Dark avengers anyone?!? and I would hate to be trapped in a repetitive prison of the same thing all the time like the reign of Gambit- where the ONLY way was to have a mirror so....gambitgambitgambit that familiarity bred contempt. I wish that those players who are being sapped of joy by the bishopwall could enjoy their game more. When I want ALL players to enjoy the game, that fully includes 550 soul stone wielding legends of the game. If Bishop prevents that, something should change. But it just isn’t a nerf.First off because he works as intended; He is being condemned for being a Heretic for saying the game revolves around strategy, not brute force speed. Bishop is (among many other things) a 4* tool for the huge disparity in 5*match dam that is faced constantly in PvP. He is great at removal, he self accelerates. He is balanced in the trade off that he dies all the time. He is actually well built and good at what he does. How many times has Moonstone melted your face with a late game Photon Blast? We all have. Bishop is great for that. There are too many examples already given for his usefulness. Then second: the characters power set fits rather well with the flavor : he eats an energy blast straight on and pushes it right back overpowered. It is an interesting thoughtwork on its own. A mutant that can absorb/ store and discharge the energy used against; how do you defeat him when your team is hard hitting killers? It is like mutant power judo. I think as a character (much like Gambit) he is well liked by fans. The real crux is : he has made top-end MMR suck. Not fun, boring, grindiestgrind that ever grindgrinded. That is where your argument has the most validity: in its anecdotal experience. It’s not fun for you; that is enough. Although the scope is limited: those that are affected are all long-term good customers. They are passionate about the game and deserve to enjoy the game they love.But that complaint has been painted over by all these “evidences” of how the idea of the kit being every sort of devil inspired chicanery. That being “forced” to switch up the teams you use is anathema to the concept of match 3, that every single match- every single time a PvP is loaded it is against him, that there is absolutely no way to beat him without losing 300 points. He’s a witch he’s a witch !(turned me into a newt once).and all the time. All the time with nerf bishop. All.the.time. not cute like dazzler clue solvers were, Just all the time with nerf bishop. It rings flat. Hitting the same note. I would love to join you and talk about how silly it is that your thorkoye was dismantled by a 4* combo that you didn’t see coming, I would love to laugh about overclocked in the way we all have the shared grief of an opening M5 against TeenJean, I would like to talk about the silliest use of blue AP bank possible but:Nope. Nerf bishop. that is the sum of it. Nerf or the game is ruined. If I thought that nerfing him would actually make the MMR above float anything but the same ol same then I would just agree to nerf him and get on withit. But it wouldn’t. nerfing him won’t solve your problems and acting like a problem for you is a priority for the game is alienating to everyone who isn’t affected but would join the chorus of Fix Bishop.Q: It’s not a nerf.beepbeep- What is; the solution to The Bishop Problem.We would also have accepted: updating MMR, level capping/min level requirement, passive counter skill, modest adjustments to trigger thresholds, or any of the many ideas that have been offered.It is not a nerf.
Daredevil217 said: tiomono said: BSSM does not counter kitty though. He counters strike tiles which kitty cannot make. Just wanted to say I’ve never seen this argument made before, but it’s so true. You actually made me take pause and think. Further cements for me that if either character is a “problem” it’s Grocket (though I don’t think either are a problem).