Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

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  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    sambrookjm said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    tiomono said:

    BSSM does not counter kitty though. He counters strike tiles which kitty cannot make.

    Just wanted to say I’ve never seen this argument made before, but it’s so true. You actually made me take pause and think. Further cements for me that if either character is a “problem” it’s Grocket (though I don’t think either are a problem). 
    I've said this a number of times.  Grocket's the main problem, but it's just shot into overdrive with Kitty's boosting his tiles.  Change Grocket so he starts the match with a (fortified at LVL 5) tile that puts out a strike tile each turn, and the problem doesn't quite vanish, but it certainly becomes easier to manage.
    Oh no. I’ve heard and stated myself Grocket is the worse of the two. I’ve never heard someone say BSSM isn’t a Kitty counter because Kitty doesn’t make strikes. He’s a Grocket counter.

    I think Grocket may be the MVP of this game. He’s not the best character- that’s Bishop. But in terms of longevity at the top and being on so many meta teams in both the top two tiers, I don’t think we’ve seen a character like that ever. Really amazing to think about. 
  • Taganov
    Taganov Posts: 279 Mover and Shaker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    The problem of Gritty is generally solved by BSSM. Need more tools? Adjusting Emma Frost and Kraven, who are both niche characters built to deal with tile spammers, seems the better solution to me. Something about making 2 characters useful to everyone instead of making one useless.

    Same logic can be applied to Bishop. Need more tools than a mirror match? There are tens of benchwarmers at the 4 and 5 level waiting for a reason to exist.



  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    BSSM was probably an OML/Phoenix counter at launch. OML gets some big strikes out pretty fast, but not as fast as battle start...
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I think it's quite difficult to get objective opinions because players have their own biases, as seen here. Cold, hard numbers could be considered objective. Identifying synergies among characters could be considered objective if it can be replicated by (any) players.

    Anyway, it seems everything has been said regarding nerfing and buffing of characters:

    1) Buff all bottom tier characters (79% vote)
    2) Nerf Bishop/Capworth/R4G (21%)
    3) Equalise 5* match damage and HP 

    I wonder how the above compares to the last in-game survey result. February is the month of love. Maybe this community can get more love from the dev. o:)


  • krakenoon
    krakenoon Posts: 355 Mover and Shaker
    So much calling for a nerf to my first champable 4* who greatly helps me with PVE events like sim & SCL7 essentials. (Cap)
    It's just terribly upsetting to have such a prize become a waste of a roster slot. Everybody knows nobody survives the nerf bat here.
    That said, I hope that when the characters are inevitably nerfed, the devs use a light touch
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    HoundofShadow said:
    I think it's quite difficult to get objective opinions because players have their own biases, as seen here. Cold, hard numbers could be considered objective. Identifying synergies among characters could be considered objective if it can be replicated by (any) players.

    Anyway, it seems everything has been said regarding nerfing and buffing of characters:

    1) Buff all bottom tier characters (79% vote)
    2) Nerf Bishop/Capworth/R4G (21%)
    3) Equalise 5* match damage and HP 

    I wonder how the above compares to the last in-game survey result. February is the month of love. Maybe this community can get more love from the dev. o:)


    The numbers on this poll are not entirely accurate in that regard though. For example I voted nerf dusting but want to see weak 5* buffed. And I'm not calling for nerfs to worthy cap or grocket only bishop. Many players that voted for buffs also want to see bishop dealt with.

    Ideally I just want a counter character to the jump in front mechanic without nerfing anyone's numbers. But with over a year with nothing like that for bishop I'm leaning toward tone his numbers down so 5* characters could at least make a match 3 vs him.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    It's just a quick summary. It's not meant to represent all comments stated here. The point is with these different opinions, the devs has to prioritise because I doubt that they can buff all bottom tier characters in both 4* or 5* land, neither would they be able to nerf all suggested characters in a single attempt. It will probably take months or years make all changes to those names characters, and by then, the meta might have changed.

    For nerfing of characters, the choices are quite clear.
    For buffing of characters, the choices are quite general like buff bottom tier characters to make them usable, except for some asking for Banner or Wasp. 

    That's why the result of the in-game survey will also influence who get priortised. It seems like the general consensus is buffing characters to counter meta team instead of nerfing them.
  • DeNappa
    DeNappa Posts: 1,396 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Spudgutter said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    Spudgutter said:


    @fightforthedream has it right, the game has a pretty decent situation of rock/paper/scissors going on right now (which is kind of unique for the life of this game) and all people keep doing is complain about how rock keeps beating scissors without acknowledging that paper even exists.
    I hear everything you are saying, even if I don't agree (most of which I don't).  You keep saying "everyone wins" and alluding to prizes, which has already been explained so many times that it isn't about that.  You're defining "a win" and telling everyone else they should be happy with their victory, but not acknowledging the large vocal "nerf Bishop" camp who don't gauge wins and losses by hitting 2k in sim.

    Rock beats down all the scissors in the tier above him and paper is the skip button (which you don't mind because you still get your rewards).

    All of these arguments were made with Gambit by the way.  Didn't make him not broken, and didn't make him not get nerfed.

    I guess i just don't see the complaint.  If you can still play, and a character helps other people play and do better, why nerf them?  If it isn't about winning, what is it?  Love of the game? 

    That is our fundamental disagreement.  If they released a 2* character today that was "broken" by your standards and definitions, that helped new players catapult to the end of the 3* tier faster, you would be against it?  I would love it.  I want people to have better stuff.  I want more competition.  I want more people to have fun with the game and stick around to keep the lights on.  It took me 2200 days to get here, and i would rather someone be able to get here much faster than that.

    Basically, if i have to choose between a minor annoyance that has no bearing on my game(while simultaneously making it easier for those that came after me) and a nerf that will have hardly any impact on my game(while neutering someone helpful to the aforementioned group) i will choose the first option 10 times out of 10.  

    Besides, what difference is it to you if there is a character that has very little impact on your game, while that character is helping many other people?  You aren't concerned with them, you just oppose a "broken" character strictly on principle? If that is the case, then just say so and i will leave it alone.

    And for what it's  worth,  i wasnt a fan of gambits first or second nerfs, or any nerfs for that matter.  It isn't even that i am against them in principle. When done correctly, plenty of games have fixed problematic characters.  Card games, board games, video games, mobile games.  Smokey joe said it best a couple pages back.  My issue isn't with nerfs, its with nerfs in this game.  These devs can't fix someone without making them useless (on average, anyways). 
    If you don't have a problem with broken characters, would you be okay with a character being releasedthat would make you start with 30AP in all colors+teamup? Or a character that would stun your entire team for 3 turns as soon as you damage them?
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Bishop
    Daredevil217 said:
    sambrookjm said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    tiomono said:

    BSSM does not counter kitty though. He counters strike tiles which kitty cannot make.

    Just wanted to say I’ve never seen this argument made before, but it’s so true. You actually made me take pause and think. Further cements for me that if either character is a “problem” it’s Grocket (though I don’t think either are a problem). 
    I've said this a number of times.  Grocket's the main problem, but it's just shot into overdrive with Kitty's boosting his tiles.  Change Grocket so he starts the match with a (fortified at LVL 5) tile that puts out a strike tile each turn, and the problem doesn't quite vanish, but it certainly becomes easier to manage.
    Oh no. I’ve heard and stated myself Grocket is the worse of the two. I’ve never heard someone say BSSM isn’t a Kitty counter because Kitty doesn’t make strikes. He’s a Grocket counter.

    I think Grocket may be the MVP of this game. He’s not the best character- that’s Bishop. But in terms of longevity at the top and being on so many meta teams in both the top two tiers, I don’t think we’ve seen a character like that ever. Really amazing to think about. 
    Grocket was the first 4.5*. I guess Bishop is the second.
  • Greenstrong
    Greenstrong Posts: 7 Just Dropped In
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Considering how many 4*s are in the game, and how many of them are deemed "trash", look into fixing them first. Emma, Talos, Namor, .... Look into the 4*s and rework their abilities to make them better contenders. I want to use them. 

    5*s are the end game and they should not be questioned in terms of their abilities. I'm not in 5*land yet but I know that some of them need work done. 

    I'm all for buffs and actually I don't care for nerfs. I say leave Bishop and Hammer Cap (I don't have these characters champed and I don't use them) because they are our offensive play against 5* players. 

    A buff should help with the balance, not a Nerf. 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Greenstrong said:
    Considering how many 4*s are in the game, and how many of them are deemed "trash", look into fixing them first. Emma, Talos, Namor, .... Look into the 4*s and rework their abilities to make them better contenders. I want to use them. 

    5*s are the end game and they should not be questioned in terms of their abilities. I'm not in 5*land yet but I know that some of them need work done. 

    I'm all for buffs and actually I don't care for nerfs. I say leave Bishop and Hammer Cap (I don't have these characters champed and I don't use them) because they are our offensive play against 5* players. 

    A buff should help with the balance, not a Nerf. 


    Actually to be fair, they are actually more of a defence against 4 -5* transisitioners. True 5* players won't tend to see 4* players, the guys who we are battling with their high level nearlychamped/baby Champed Gritty or He/WCap teams are actually baby teams to true 5* players. There has been a lot of aggro thrown around but the tiers should own it - just like it is 5* players causing grief with Bishop to their peers it is 4* players doing the same in the 4* land.
  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Funny thing... 5* Wasp can make an ally invisible and that does un-stun them!

    I'm kinda wondering how she's not listed as one of the possible counters for Bishop alongside Dr. Octopus or Surfer. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2020
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    DAZ0273 said:
    Greenstrong said:
    Considering how many 4*s are in the game, and how many of them are deemed "trash", look into fixing them first. Emma, Talos, Namor, .... Look into the 4*s and rework their abilities to make them better contenders. I want to use them. 

    5*s are the end game and they should not be questioned in terms of their abilities. I'm not in 5*land yet but I know that some of them need work done. 

    I'm all for buffs and actually I don't care for nerfs. I say leave Bishop and Hammer Cap (I don't have these characters champed and I don't use them) because they are our offensive play against 5* players. 

    A buff should help with the balance, not a Nerf. 


    Actually to be fair, they are actually more of a defence against 4 -5* transisitioners. True 5* players won't tend to see 4* players, the guys who we are battling with their high level nearlychamped/baby Champed Gritty or He/WCap teams are actually baby teams to true 5* players. There has been a lot of aggro thrown around but the tiers should own it - just like it is 5* players causing grief with Bishop to their peers it is 4* players doing the same in the 4* land.
    Imo they are not "more of a defence against 4-5* transitioners" when they take advantage of every 5* characters regular match damage. How do you think it would affect the game if we gave 3* iron man the ability to jump in front of an ally gain 3 yellow and do 300 damage when a level 270 4* champ made a match 3? What would that do to the 3* tier or the 4* tier? Would it just let them defend against 3-4* transitioning players? Would it open up the 3* tier and give them the tools they need to deal with 4*'s? Would 3* players want to progress to 4* when they already have a tool on their team that is so effective vs 4*'s?

    Does it matter who is doing it?
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2020
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    HoundofShadow said:
    It's just a quick summary. It's not meant to represent all comments stated here. The point is with these different opinions, the devs has to prioritise because I doubt that they can buff all bottom tier characters in both 4* or 5* land, neither would they be able to nerf all suggested characters in a single attempt. It will probably take months or years make all changes to those names characters, and by then, the meta might have changed.

    For nerfing of characters, the choices are quite clear.
    For buffing of characters, the choices are quite general like buff bottom tier characters to make them usable, except for some asking for Banner or Wasp. 

    That's why the result of the in-game survey will also influence who get priortised. It seems like the general consensus is buffing characters to counter meta team instead of nerfing them.
    When they phrase the poll as "light dusting of nerf powder" in a topic on character balance not on character reworks, I have a bit of optimism that this would be numbers adjusting and not kit reworks.

    Number tweaks should not take years. 5* Wasp too weak? Give her 10% more damage on the swarm see if that works. Kitty buff too strong? Tone it down by 10% see what happens. 

    If players want shifts in the meta this is how you do it without trashcanning characters.
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    If the game wasn't so Heavily structured around speed a lot these issues wouldn't arise or be such a problem.

    But hey where you are in 5 land trying to make a push, speed is of the essence, so picking a counter to a lot of these while it would work fine it just isn't worth it. Even if the team would net you 75 points, in the meantime you'll lost 150 or more.

    The problem isn't a character being to strong, its a character being to strong on defense, in a game who's meta 100 percent revolves around speed, luck, time spent, and coordination.  


    Even single "broken" single character (not teams) that has gotten a nerf or just was though of as broken has been because of how good they are in some defensive manner, be it healing, stunning, or being able to kill characters effectively on defense.

    There aren't many characters I can think of that were nerfed for pve reasons, closest to that is problem spiderman and maybe gambit. But gambit was good at everything lol....


  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    @tiomono

    You couldn't have misconstrued my comment more if you had tried. I am sure you never intended to. ☺

    I am saying that the use  of Bishop by players in the 4* tier is NOT against true 5* players, it is against 4* players who are in the 5* transisition. I am a 4* player, you as a 5* player are not going to find me too often in your game therefore your Gritty team is not a problem to me. It is the guys who have say non Champed but high level Gritty teams that Bishop in the 4* tier is getting used against. In comparison, the Bishops that you 5* players are seeing are accompanied by 5* Gritty teams etc. By 5* players.

    I am in no way saying that Bishop doesn't "punch up" in terms of his effect on match 3 for the 5* tier just that 4* players aren't punchin up any more than 5* players are punching down in most circumstances. This is all happening within the relevant star tier barring the odd break of MMR.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    DAZ0273 said:
    @tiomono

    You couldn't have misconstrued my comment more if you had tried. I am sure you never intended to. ☺

    I am saying that the use  of Bishop by players in the 4* tier is NOT against true 5* players, it is against 4* players who are in the 5* transisition. I am a 4* player, you as a 5* player are not going to find me too often in your game therefore your Gritty team is not a problem to me. It is the guys who have say non Champed but high level Gritty teams that Bishop in the 4* tier is getting used against. In comparison, the Bishops that you 5* players are seeing are accompanied by 5* Gritty teams etc. By 5* players.

    I am in no way saying that Bishop doesn't "punch up" in terms of his effect on match 3 for the 5* tier just that 4* players aren't punchin up any more than 5* players are punching down in most circumstances. This is all happening within the relevant star tier barring the odd break of MMR.
    I got ya. Just know that I am 12 5* champs in and have nothing in those 12 characters or even in the other 28 5* characters that I do not have champed that could effectively deal with bishop.

    I guess if the devs want every event to be combined arms we can leave bishop as is with no counterplay for the 5* champs. Then we have that sweet cross tier synergy that some players think the game is better off having. It's good sometimes. I love combined arms. But Bishop forces me to play combined arms when I see him or skip him entirely. I'm so tired of it. I wish they would give me a solid counter or adjust his threshold so 5* champs could match 3.
  • jamesh
    jamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Greenstrong said:
    Idea: one valuable ability is to stun the opponent. 

    Let's give a character the ability to UNSTUN an ally. 
    Example: Emma Frost is an S level Telepath. She can go deep into the minds of her allies to UNSTUN them. Once awakened, the ally is filled with motivation to reclaim their lost time - so they fire a random ability (free of AP).

    Or, after UNSTUN, gain AP.
    There are already a few characters that effectively have this ability already.  For example, the "stunned" state is mutually exclusive with "invisible", so Invisible Woman's and Agent Venom's yellow powers can break their team mates out of a long stun.  I haven't tried it in a long time, but "airborne" might be the same.  That would make Colossus's and Gwenpool's black powers another option, although you wouldn't be able to use the team mate right away.
  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,041 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Greenstrong said:
    Idea: one valuable ability is to stun the opponent. 

    Let's give a character the ability to UNSTUN an ally. 
    Example: Emma Frost is an S level Telepath. She can go deep into the minds of her allies to UNSTUN them. Once awakened, the ally is filled with motivation to reclaim their lost time - so they fire a random ability (free of AP).

    Or, after UNSTUN, gain AP. 

    I really like the idea of firing a random ability. Like how collosus does it. Or since she's supposed to be powerful, Emma can encourage the stunned character to fire a chosen ability instead. And maybe give her synergy with Cyclops, like how Iron fist and Luke Cage have synergy. 

    Similar to R4G:
    For every X-Men on the team, X is increased by Y.
    Amusingly, you can unstun an ally by turning them invisible or sending them airborne. A given character can't have more than one status at a time.

    That said, your idea about an Emma Frost unstun ability is gold!

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