Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

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  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Daredevil217 said:
    Spudgutter said:


    @fightforthedream has it right, the game has a pretty decent situation of rock/paper/scissors going on right now (which is kind of unique for the life of this game) and all people keep doing is complain about how rock keeps beating scissors without acknowledging that paper even exists.
    I hear everything you are saying, even if I don't agree (most of which I don't).  You keep saying "everyone wins" and alluding to prizes, which has already been explained so many times that it isn't about that.  You're defining "a win" and telling everyone else they should be happy with their victory, but not acknowledging the large vocal "nerf Bishop" camp who don't gauge wins and losses by hitting 2k in sim.

    Rock beats down all the scissors in the tier above him and paper is the skip button (which you don't mind because you still get your rewards).

    All of these arguments were made with Gambit by the way.  Didn't make him not broken, and didn't make him not get nerfed.

    I guess i just don't see the complaint.  If you can still play, and a character helps other people play and do better, why nerf them?  If it isn't about winning, what is it?  Love of the game? 

    That is our fundamental disagreement.  If they released a 2* character today that was "broken" by your standards and definitions, that helped new players catapult to the end of the 3* tier faster, you would be against it?  I would love it.  I want people to have better stuff.  I want more competition.  I want more people to have fun with the game and stick around to keep the lights on.  It took me 2200 days to get here, and i would rather someone be able to get here much faster than that.

    Basically, if i have to choose between a minor annoyance that has no bearing on my game(while simultaneously making it easier for those that came after me) and a nerf that will have hardly any impact on my game(while neutering someone helpful to the aforementioned group) i will choose the first option 10 times out of 10.  

    Besides, what difference is it to you if there is a character that has very little impact on your game, while that character is helping many other people?  You aren't concerned with them, you just oppose a "broken" character strictly on principle? If that is the case, then just say so and i will leave it alone.

    And for what it's  worth,  i wasnt a fan of gambits first or second nerfs, or any nerfs for that matter.  It isn't even that i am against them in principle. When done correctly, plenty of games have fixed problematic characters.  Card games, board games, video games, mobile games.  Smokey joe said it best a couple pages back.  My issue isn't with nerfs, its with nerfs in this game.  These devs can't fix someone without making them useless (on average, anyways). 
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said:
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said:
    tiomono said:
    fight4thedream said:

    So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. 
    when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them. 
    Only when paired with specific other characters of the next tier above.  And even then, that is just your opinion.  There was a time that 3* iron man was a "great pick" over a lot of 4*, and no one complained that i can remember. 

    There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6.  Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go.
    I think you dont know what bishop does if you think he needs specific teammates to punish every 5* characters basic match 3.

    It is not an opinion to say that when a 5* champed character makes a match 3, bishop will jump to the front take that hit throw the damage back roughly 200% then gain 5 blue ap. That's in game fact.
    Well, yes, that part is a fact.  I am not disputing that. 

    But that isn't the point.  If he keeps doing it, he dies.  And when he is dead, he is no longer helping or doing anything.  You aren't winning every match if you pair him with most of the next tier above.  
    He is only good till he dies? Lol. That's the best argument I have ever heard. Even if grocket died to make his strikes people would use him. The advantages bishop grants to his team during his suicide spiral far outweighs what the opponent can do in the same span.
    You definitely missed my point.  I am not disputing he will jump in front and hit back for 4k.  I'm saying He stops being good *when* he dies. He is no use after a few jumps in front and is dead.

    "There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6.  Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go."

    Thor pretty much works with everyone, should he be nerfed? Okoyepretty much works with everyone, should she be nerfed?  
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Since nobody can come to an agreement except to agree to disgree regarding nerfing certain characters, why not think of different teams to deal with Bishop while the dev ponders over this grave matter?  >:)

    Has anyone tried Dr Ock, Silver Surfer and Prof X against Bishop teams? Because Prof X's match 4 triggers often, Dr Ock stands to gain and become immune to stun. Match damage wise, Dr Ock's is comparable to the last few 5*.

    Assuming same level, they will tank the following colours:
    Surfer - Red
    Dr Ock - Green and Black
    Prof X - Blue, Purple, Yellow and TU

    If Prof X gets stun, you can collect purple without triggering Bishop.

    The above strategy could probably be replicated across different teams.  

    Let the dominant character whose teammates don't overlap with his colours get stunned by Bishop.  Let's say only X character are proficient in red, green and blue, find two other teammates who ovelap each other in yellow, black and purple. While that character is stunned, collect the stunned teammates' colour since they will be dealing only ~250-300 match-3 damage. Once that teammate is back, activate his power to take down Bishop team.

  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    HoundofShadow said:
    Since nobody can come to an agreement except to agree to disgree regarding nerfing certain characters, why not think of different teams to deal with Bishop while the dev ponders over this grave matter?  >:)

    Has anyone tried Dr Ock, Silver Surfer and Prof X against Bishop teams? Because Prof X's match 4 triggers often, Dr Ock stands to gain and become immune to stun. Match damage wise, Dr Ock's is comparable to the last few 5*.

    Assuming same level, they will tank the following colours:
    Surfer - Red
    Dr Ock - Green and Black
    Prof X - Blue, Purple, Yellow and TU

    If Prof X gets stun, you can collect purple without triggering Bishop.

    The above strategy could probably be replicated across different teams.  

    Let the dominant character whose teammates don't overlap with his colours get stunned by Bishop.  Let's say only X character are proficient in red, green and blue, find two other teammates who ovelap each other in yellow, black and purple. While that character is stunned, collect the stunned teammates' colour since they will be dealing only ~250-300 match-3 damage. Once that teammate is back, activate his power to take down Bishop team.

    Ock and surfer are too slow and dont deal enough damage.  Sure, they cant be stunned.  But while you're trying to collect AP for powers that dont do much bishop is hitting you back twice for what damage you *are* doing.  If hes paired with someone that deals a bunch if damage you're taking even more.  If it were as simple as a rainbow team nobody would complain.
  • purplemur
    purplemur Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    edited February 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I will acknowledge the vocal nerf bishop camp. But its not that large. Approx 50 people....or broken down over the slices- the T10. 
    right now it’s 4-1 buffs over nerf. You are in the overwhelming minority. Recognize that.

    How about at any point, someone from that 50 player group deign to acknowledge the harm they would be asking for? 
    Could at any point the sheer awful stink of their condescending assuredness of their position being absolutely unassailable because if you don’t see how “broken” he is than your a fool be self evident? Like do you guys see how it comes off like an expert condemning Galileo? Even in the face of contrary evidence? Cuz there have been plenty of condolences and acknowledged the unfun prospect of facing him exclusively after breaking float. There have been plenty of attempts to offer help. But all those 50 do is hammercap home about broken broken unfair unfair shouldn’t have to not use my 5s etc. 
    Are any of those 50 4* players?
     Are any of those 50 not in T50 alliances or get that placement themselves? 
    Do any of those 50 ever play in scl 6-7-8? 

    Have you tried bringing gamora to a bishop fight? Seriously try something different.
    sidenote - the definition insanity is “the state of being mentally ill, madness” the whole trying the same thing and expecting different results is called the scientific method. But back to *edit*removed smear.
  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,288 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said: 
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said:
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said:
    tiomono said:
    fight4thedream said:

    So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. 
    when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them. 
    Only when paired with specific other characters of the next tier above.  And even then, that is just your opinion.  There was a time that 3* iron man was a "great pick" over a lot of 4*, and no one complained that i can remember. 

    There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6.  Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go.
    I think you dont know what bishop does if you think he needs specific teammates to punish every 5* characters basic match 3.

    It is not an opinion to say that when a 5* champed character makes a match 3, bishop will jump to the front take that hit throw the damage back roughly 200% then gain 5 blue ap. That's in game fact.
    Well, yes, that part is a fact.  I am not disputing that. 

    But that isn't the point.  If he keeps doing it, he dies.  And when he is dead, he is no longer helping or doing anything.  You aren't winning every match if you pair him with most of the next tier above.  
    He is only good till he dies? Lol. That's the best argument I have ever heard. Even if grocket died to make his strikes people would use him. The advantages bishop grants to his team during his suicide spiral far outweighs what the opponent can do in the same span.
    You definitely missed my point.  I am not disputing he will jump in front and hit back for 4k.  I'm saying He stops being good *when* he dies. He is no use after a few jumps in front and is dead.

    "There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6.  Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go."

    Thor pretty much works with everyone, should he be nerfed? Okoyepretty much works with everyone, should she be nerfed?  
    Thor only really shines on offense when he starts at 50% health. On defense he is manageable. Bishop forces a 5* character to deal with him and his strengths on turn 1 offense or defense. 

    My level 456 iceman does 2565 damage for a match 3 on yellow. That's 6 plus a tad hits at minimum my level 282 bishop can take if all my matches are yellow. Thats 18 yellow gained and 15,390 damage dealt to the enemy team. Meanwhile bishop dealt 23,964 damage and gained 30 blue and this does not account what damage and ap his team gets to gain on their own turn. If he can stun his opponent that is also up to 36 ap he destroyed.

    His presence in a match all the way up to his death outpaces the damage and ap gain every low level 5* champ in the game can put out. No other character puts your team at such a huge advantage in such a short time.

    If I had wasp I would run her with bishop just to see how few hits I get. I can leave any combo or trio of 5* out on defence and I will get beat down. Or I can leave bishop and banner out like I am doing right now in the cap pvp and enjoy my free shield because players just like you think skipping is the most viable strategy vs the overwhelming might of banner so my float point gets raised because people just do not want to fight banner. 


    Lmao. I saw your bishop and banner team in pvp and skipped them.  I know my newly champed lvl 464 BRB and lvl 454 Thor were no match for banners might. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2020
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    purplemur said:
    I will acknowledge the vocal nerf bishop camp. But its not that large. Approx 50 people....or broken down over the slices- the T10. 
    right now it’s 4-1 buffs over nerf. You are in the overwhelming minority. Recognize that.

    How about at any point, someone from that 50 player group deign to acknowledge the harm they would be asking for? 
    Could at any point the sheer awful stink of their condescending assuredness of their position being absolutely unassailable because if you don’t see how “broken” he is than your a fool be self evident? Like do you guys see how it comes off like an expert condemning Galileo? Even in the face of contrary evidence? Cuz there have been plenty of condolences and acknowledged the unfun prospect of facing him exclusively after breaking float. There have been plenty of attempts to offer help. But all those 50 do is hammercap home about broken broken unfair unfair shouldn’t have to not use my 5s etc. 
    Are any of those 50 4* players?
     Are any of those 50 not in T50 alliances or get that placement themselves? 
    Do any of those 50 ever play in scl 6-7-8? 

    Have you tried bringing gamora to a bishop fight? Seriously try something different.
    sidenote - the definition insanity is “the state of being mentally ill, madness” the whole trying the same thing and expecting different results is called the scientific method. But back to whining about how hard it is to take all the top prizes......
    Dear Galileo,

        I'm a player that enjoys a game called marvel puzzle quest. I play it more often than any reasonable person probably should. I have a 20 person alliance that I am part of that is currently ranked 864 for the current running season. I typically place in the top 200 for most versus events I play in largely because I do not want to put in that much more effort and timing into the game. I play at my own pace and time. I have managed to champion twelve 5* characters in the game. They are a challenge to acquire and represent the highest tier of play in the game. Oddly enough I only ever play with one of these characters on my teams at any given point and there is a reason for that.

    I have an issue with a character that I see so often and is so frustrating to play against he drains a bit of the fun out of the game. His name is Bishop. He is a 4* character and is very easy to aquire compared to 5* characters. But when he faces a 5* character (any of the 40 of them) he gets to take advantage of their regular match damage. They match 3 tiles on their turn and he will do more damage and gain more ap than the 5* character can. Then his team gets to take their turn making that advantage even larger. According to many people that feel he is not a problem the best way to deal with him is to not even fight him. Others would suggest bringing a team of 4*'s to battle him since their match damage will not trigger bishop. However bishop is typically paired with one or more 5* characters himself. And their high match damage and health pools make fighting them with 4*'s a very risky challenge. 

    I know you have given contrary evidence that apparently invalidates my own opinion and solidifies yours even though you are claiming that I am condemning your stance. I have only listed pure numbers that are part of the game to show how bishop gives a very fast and large lead to his team on a scale that no 5* character can replicate. I have called for counter champions to allow my hard earned 5* characters to be able to even gaze upon the mulleted glory of bishop. But sadly it's been over a year and he has not had any working 5* counter in that time. Which is why I am now changing my opinion and asking for him to be adjusted somehow so that he does not outpace the entire 5* tier even when it is not his teams turn.

    Sincerely,
    Tiomono.


    P.s. I have tried 4* Gamora and even reccomend her to others. But I would like to enjoy the 5* characters I have worked hard to earn and not have them rendered nearly useless vs one character from a tier below them.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    BriMan2222 said:
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said: 
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said:
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said:
    tiomono said:
    fight4thedream said:

    So disparity between characters in tiers is a common feature of these types of games and I can see why. I think the problem some people have is that they want each tier to be distinctly better than the previous tier but I think a healthy meta would allow for some overlap. 
    when one character from a tier below is always a great pick vs 100% of the tier above them. 
    Only when paired with specific other characters of the next tier above.  And even then, that is just your opinion.  There was a time that 3* iron man was a "great pick" over a lot of 4*, and no one complained that i can remember. 

    There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6.  Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go.
    I think you dont know what bishop does if you think he needs specific teammates to punish every 5* characters basic match 3.

    It is not an opinion to say that when a 5* champed character makes a match 3, bishop will jump to the front take that hit throw the damage back roughly 200% then gain 5 blue ap. That's in game fact.
    Well, yes, that part is a fact.  I am not disputing that. 

    But that isn't the point.  If he keeps doing it, he dies.  And when he is dead, he is no longer helping or doing anything.  You aren't winning every match if you pair him with most of the next tier above.  
    He is only good till he dies? Lol. That's the best argument I have ever heard. Even if grocket died to make his strikes people would use him. The advantages bishop grants to his team during his suicide spiral far outweighs what the opponent can do in the same span.
    You definitely missed my point.  I am not disputing he will jump in front and hit back for 4k.  I'm saying He stops being good *when* he dies. He is no use after a few jumps in front and is dead.

    "There are now 40 5*, and in a pick 2 environment, bishop works well with about 5 or 6.  Pair him up with over 20 and let me know how those matches go."

    Thor pretty much works with everyone, should he be nerfed? Okoyepretty much works with everyone, should she be nerfed?  
    Thor only really shines on offense when he starts at 50% health. On defense he is manageable. Bishop forces a 5* character to deal with him and his strengths on turn 1 offense or defense. 

    My level 456 iceman does 2565 damage for a match 3 on yellow. That's 6 plus a tad hits at minimum my level 282 bishop can take if all my matches are yellow. Thats 18 yellow gained and 15,390 damage dealt to the enemy team. Meanwhile bishop dealt 23,964 damage and gained 30 blue and this does not account what damage and ap his team gets to gain on their own turn. If he can stun his opponent that is also up to 36 ap he destroyed.

    His presence in a match all the way up to his death outpaces the damage and ap gain every low level 5* champ in the game can put out. No other character puts your team at such a huge advantage in such a short time.

    If I had wasp I would run her with bishop just to see how few hits I get. I can leave any combo or trio of 5* out on defence and I will get beat down. Or I can leave bishop and banner out like I am doing right now in the cap pvp and enjoy my free shield because players just like you think skipping is the most viable strategy vs the overwhelming might of banner so my float point gets raised because people just do not want to fight banner. 


    Lmao. I saw your bishop and banner team in pvp and skipped them.  I know my newly champed lvl 464 BRB and lvl 454 Thor were no match for banners might. 
    I kinda wish you would have tried it so I could hear how it did in the a.i.'s hands. It's nice if you dont want banner to transform you can overwrite his transform countdown with cap.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    OJSP said:
    purplemur said:
    Good points about the debate going around in circles.
    Spudgutter said:
    I want people to have better stuff.  I want more competition.  I want more people to have fun with the game and stick around to keep the lights on.  It took me 2200 days to get here, and i would rather someone be able to get here much faster than that.

    Basically, if i have to choose between a minor annoyance that has no bearing on my game(while simultaneously making it easier for those that came after me) and a nerf that will have hardly any impact on my game(while neutering someone helpful to the aforementioned group) i will choose the first option 10 times out of 10.  

    Besides, what difference is it to you if there is a character that has very little impact on your game, while that character is helping many other people?  You aren't concerned with them, you just oppose a "broken" character strictly on principle? If that is the case, then just say so and i will leave it alone.
    Just want to clarify where I stood, as I saw 2 opinions I agreed with. I actually don't like how the word broken is being thrown around so much when a character or a team is strong. But Bishop is broken for another different reason.

    Like I said before in the other threads, I want Bishop to be fixed so he stops producing AP at 10 despite cascades. His behaviour when hit by cascades is surely not as it's intended, because he could also get downed in 1 turn without making any AP due to how the damage is calculated (order or operation). At the moment, the behaviour is unpredictable. There are many times when I try to make a weak match, but I still end up losing out in the end. That's broken.

    By fixing that, they are also fixing Elektra and HammerCap (and maybe a few other characters that I can't think of immediately). But, there are a lot of characters that have become weak and are rarely used because of power creep. If we fix Bishop before addressing the others, a lot of players would lose one of their best characters without any options to deal with the problems they were dealing with by using him.

    So, buff other characters first, and maybe fix Bishop if you have time after.
    Actual genuine question. What problems were players facing that bishop is the only answer to?
  • LLohm
    LLohm Posts: 84 Match Maker
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    the answer to this isn’t get a BSSM?

    I am surprised since the answer to bishop was get Silver Surfer or play downwards and use a team of 4*. Which by the way is an awful counter since bishop out damages SS 2x and using a team of 4* against bishop + a 5* is a dangerous proposition.

    If somebody gets a kitty which is a 5* btw, shouldn’t this player have a right for it to perform better than a whole 4* team? Seeing as 5* are the highest tier possible at the moment?

    Both SS and BSSM are in classics dilution. The mechanics of bishop is obviously wrong when it forces 5* players to not match 3.

    It deserves to be changed. 

    4* players either get BSS or their own kitty. This may not go down so well but I do think that if the other player tries hard with a 5* kitty, you either move up or live with it.
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    edited February 2020
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    purplemur said:
    I will acknowledge the vocal nerf bishop camp. But its not that large. Approx 50 people....or broken down over the slices- the T10. 
    right now it’s 4-1 buffs over nerf. You are in the overwhelming minority. Recognize that.

    How about at any point, someone from that 50 player group deign to acknowledge the harm they would be asking for? 
    Could at any point the sheer awful stink of their condescending assuredness of their position being absolutely unassailable because if you don’t see how “broken” he is than your a fool be self evident? Like do you guys see how it comes off like an expert condemning Galileo? Even in the face of contrary evidence? Cuz there have been plenty of condolences and acknowledged the unfun prospect of facing him exclusively after breaking float. There have been plenty of attempts to offer help. But all those 50 do is hammercap home about broken broken unfair unfair shouldn’t have to not use my 5s etc. 
    Are any of those 50 4* players?
     Are any of those 50 not in T50 alliances or get that placement themselves? 
    Do any of those 50 ever play in scl 6-7-8? 

    Have you tried bringing gamora to a bishop fight? Seriously try something different.
    sidenote - the definition insanity is “the state of being mentally ill, madness” the whole trying the same thing and expecting different results is called the scientific method. But back to whining about how hard it is to take all the top prizes......
    .... ok.  First of all there are far more than 50 5 star players in this game.   I'm assuming you're getting that number from the amount of people who voted for a nerf.   If you read people's actual replies, though, you'll find that many voted for a buff but commented that bishop needs a nerf.  That's due to the limitations of the current poll.  If there were a "¿Por que no Los dos?" option many would have chosen that.  Besides that there are *tons* of players that play this game that didn't bother voting.  I mean, the game isnt supported solely by the 250 people that voted here.  If you read the 700 page "Nerf bishop" thread or the "Hammercap and his broken friends" thread or reddit or visit Line rooms or the MPQ discord server or....anything other than looking at the votes here you'll see the huge support for a bishop nerf.   
        I have tried bringing gamora to a bishop fight, sure.  Have *you* tried bringing a 5 star to a bishop fight?  For that matter, have you tried bringing 4 stars to fight a champed kitty/rocket/bishop combo dealing 10k+ match damage *per turn*?  Or how about a bishop/strange combination where bishop gens AP and then either you can stun strange and get stunned by bishop for 4 turns *or* you stun him and eat 24k damage from strange instead, all while being stunned for 3 turns?  It is a shame you cant post videos here.  If we could maybe youd see how self evident it is that bishop is totally completely broken against 5 stars.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    My thinking is in a choose 3, say A, B, and C:

    1) Let A be the one who has the power to immobilise Bishop or take him down
    2) B's & C's colours won't overlap with A's as much as possible.
    3) Let A get stunned and get Overclocked at least twice.
    4) Move Bishop to the back.
    5) Let B & C make matches in A's colours while he's stunned for 4 turns. Their match-3 in A's colours should deal between 200 to 300 damage, which won't trigger him to jump in front.

    At level 270 for Bishop, you need to deal about 938 in order to get him to jump in front and deal 450 damage to him in order for him to gain at least 5 blue ap. 

    As for choosing Bishop, I guess because he's a meta character that lets you gain blue aps quickly and blue is usually associated with stun. It allows them to deal with threats quickly. It is a defensive measure. His Overclocked is a bonus. 

    I guess it's the same with using half-health Thor. His main purpose is gaining at least 5 ap every turn, not including ap gained from cascades. But in this scenario, his use is for offensive purpose.

    Come to think of it, all these disagreements remind me of those feedbacks about getting veteran players to be part of the character design process with the dev so that they can help to "catch" broken or "weak" new characters. I think it would be a comical sight to see the veterans arguing with each other about how the characters should be designed while the devs simply sit and watch.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,966 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:

    BSSM does not counter kitty though. He counters strike tiles which kitty cannot make.

    Just wanted to say I’ve never seen this argument made before, but it’s so true. You actually made me take pause and think. Further cements for me that if either character is a “problem” it’s Grocket (though I don’t think either are a problem). 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    purplemur said:

    It sucks to only face the same thing: Dark avengers anyone?!? and I would hate to be trapped in a repetitive prison of the same thing all the time like the reign of Gambit- where the ONLY way was to have a mirror so....gambitgambitgambit that familiarity bred contempt.

     I wish that those players who are being sapped of joy by the bishopwall could enjoy their game more. When I want ALL players to enjoy the game, that fully includes 550 soul stone wielding legends of the game. If Bishop prevents that, something should change. 

    But it just isn’t a nerf.

    First off because he works as intended; He is being condemned for being a Heretic for saying the game revolves around strategy, not brute force speed. Bishop is (among many other things) a 4* tool for the huge disparity in 5*match dam that is faced constantly in PvP. He is great at removal, he self accelerates. He is balanced in the trade off that he dies all the time. He is actually well built and good at what he does. How many times has Moonstone melted your face with a late game Photon Blast? We all have. Bishop is great for that. There are too many examples already given for his usefulness. 

    Then second: the characters power set fits rather well with the flavor : he eats an energy blast straight on and pushes it right back overpowered. It is an interesting thoughtwork on its own. A mutant that can absorb/ store and discharge the energy used against; how do you defeat him when your team is hard hitting killers? It is like mutant power judo. I think as a character (much like Gambit) he is well liked by fans. 

    The real crux is : he has made top-end MMR suck. Not fun, boring, grindiestgrind that ever grindgrinded. That is where your argument has the most validity: in its anecdotal experience. It’s not fun for you; that is enough. Although the scope is limited: those that are affected are all long-term good customers. They are passionate about the game and deserve to enjoy the game they love.

    But that complaint has been painted over by all these “evidences” of how the idea of the kit being every sort of devil inspired chicanery. That being “forced” to switch up the teams you use is anathema to the concept of match 3, that every single match- every single time a PvP is loaded it is against him, that there is absolutely no way to beat him without losing 300 points. He’s a witch he’s a witch !(turned me into a newt once).

    and all the time. All the time with nerf bishop. All.the.time. not cute like dazzler clue solvers were, Just all the time with nerf bishop. It rings flat. Hitting the same note.

     I would love to join you and talk about how silly it is that your thorkoye was dismantled by a 4* combo that you didn’t see coming, I would love to laugh about overclocked in the way we all have the shared grief of an opening M5 against TeenJean, I would like to talk about the silliest use of blue AP bank possible but:Nope. Nerf bishop. that is the sum of it. Nerf or the game is ruined. 

    If I thought that nerfing him would actually make the MMR above float anything but the same ol same then I would just agree to nerf him and get on withit. But it wouldn’t. nerfing him won’t solve your problems and acting like a problem for you is a priority for the game is alienating to everyone who isn’t affected but would join the chorus of Fix Bishop.

    Q: It’s not a nerf.

    beepbeep- What is; the solution to The Bishop Problem.

    We would also have accepted: updating MMR, level capping/min level requirement, passive counter skill, modest adjustments to trigger thresholds, or any of the many ideas that have been offered.

    It is not a nerf.

    You make several good points.

    However your closing points mention nerf is not the solution but also say you would accept modest adjustments to trigger thresholds. 

    Also his kit being thematically accurate. He really isn't the best at absorbing kinetic hits in the comics. He stores energy and redirects it multiplying the force. So a lightning strike for example, he sucks it up and fires back. Regular match 3's in my mind are more akin to punches or kinetic hits. If in game he took active powers or even passive damage thrown at him and could use that damage to make a hit that was beefed up that would be fine. But how does he manage thematically to throw his face in front of every punch thrown in a fight in a 3v3 brawl?

    Tapping only affected the very tip top of placement and competition. That got dealt with. I'm not sure bishop does that to high end play, I'm not there myself. I do know he makes many players with 5* champs (which is a very broad range of players and styles of playing) either not want to use their strongest characters or force them to not use them. Or just not fight him at all and skip. 

    Forcing the upper tier players to drop down and use characters from a lower tier seems the equivalent of saying a team of Michael Jordan's in his prime is so good at basketball the only way to beat him is to bring in a high school team. It's a bit absurd.  
  • sambrookjm
    sambrookjm Posts: 2,163 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Daredevil217 said:
    tiomono said:

    BSSM does not counter kitty though. He counters strike tiles which kitty cannot make.

    Just wanted to say I’ve never seen this argument made before, but it’s so true. You actually made me take pause and think. Further cements for me that if either character is a “problem” it’s Grocket (though I don’t think either are a problem). 
    I've said this a number of times.  Grocket's the main problem, but it's just shot into overdrive with Kitty's boosting his tiles.  Change Grocket so he starts the match with a (fortified at LVL 5) tile that puts out a strike tile each turn, and the problem doesn't quite vanish, but it certainly becomes easier to manage.

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