Nerf Bishop

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  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    Therealsmkspy said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Therealsmkspy said:
    Why you don't just stop being the behavior police? Either you're just plain too sensitive and can't handle a little internet snark or you really like being on your high-horse. I really can't which, but hoping it is the former.
    Ha! There you go, reasonable discourse, lol!
    I know you’re being sarcastic, but I kind of agree with @Therealsmkspy (though it could be stated much much nicer).

    Let’s not act like there haven’t been plenty of valid arguments as to why he should be nerfed. Even jp1 admitted himself that Bishop’s mechanic is not okay (though added the “in a vacuum” qualifier, which I’d love explained more).

    Overall, I think this has been a pretty reasonable well-discussed topic. But I’m also not super-sensitive to the occasional internet snark either. If anyone is feeling emotionally triggered, it’s okay to step away rather than trying to monitor other people’s behavior. Especially if not going off-topic, being abusive, etc. Focusing on who said what to who, who started it, if two wrongs make a right, etc. is just more distraction from the actual topic (Bishop). 

    I appreciate @tiomono cutting through all that and asking @jp1 if he would like to respond to any of his arguments on why Bishop should be nerfed.
    Well, being direct is often misconstrued as being mean. I could have written a long tip toe paragraph that eventually said the same thing, but more than likely the point would have been lost in the tip toeing. 
    Clearly nothing more to say here.

    I want to respond in kind...but seriously it has to stop somewhere.

    Throwing fire at the sun at this point.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,962 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    tiomono said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    The comment referred to was mine about nerfing 5* and it was at time of posting very much a joke and is therefore referred to very much out of context by tiomono above (I even mentioned Okoye). I stated it was a joke a little while afterwards and so I would appreciate that it is not misrepresented literally weeks later here on page whatever this is, please. However, much like jp1 feels, I also felt piled upon so I also got sucked into a snarkiness that this thread took for a turn. I was even told I was being "too emotional". I found none of that very conducive to reasonable discussion. A few weeks later we seem no further along but I am least listening.
    So who was piling on you when you are the first response in a discussion with a joke and not respond to the topic being raised?

    If you want to talk bishop talk bishop. I'm not going to argue over what intentions of words are when you yourself called your first post "mostly in jest".
    OK, let's talk Bishop. Despite various Devs being summoned to comment on the thread, none have appeared to comment. On another platform it is reported that he isn't on the radar to be "rebalanced". 
    Fair enough. I'm not seeing where it was mentioned that a dev said on discord no nerf was in the books (can someone cited a page number?) I thought it was also mentioned that the dev then went on to theory craft how to handle bishop. So they may realize he is a problem but are thinking of counter strategies instead of rebalancing. Which is very common for these devs.

    Most of the big problem characters that have come around were not immediately rebalanced. They even tried counter characters to gambit before deciding that he was indeed too big of a problem. Its also easy to see they are trying to create counter characters to many meta/common teams.

    You and I both already agreed we do not want a nerf. But that we would like to see counter characters come along and see what shakes out. 

    Do you have an opinion one way or another on bishop being a problem for the 5* tier? Many are saying he is no problem, many others think he is the spawn of Satan lol.

    I strongly feel that a character that makes the most basic aspect of this game, matching 3 tiles, to be a burden on a whole tier of characters needs to be addressed. 

    I also strongly feel that taking your turn and doing 2k damage and earning 3 ap vs an opponent doing 4k damage and gaining 8 ap in the same time span is a problem. 

    I want the devs to know that many players feel that bishop is a problem and one that needs an answer of some form. I have stated why I feel some characters that are listed as counters are not good enough. Other people can disagree with that viewpoint. 

    Now a bit of silliness. Anyone that lists Dr. Ock as a counter needs to realize he is as effective as lumbercap or archangel vs gambit back in the day.
    I will be honest, I am going on what I *think* was said and that was that there was nothing on the radar about looking at him, you could well be right and I hope you are.

    We do agree on Bishop and no nerf BUT I am not so intractable to take it off the table if a counter isn't possible. Obviously 5* players should not be punished for simply matching 3, that is ridiculous. I got bogged down early on a lot in my hatred for Kitty which is a separate thread, I should have engaged in the topic early on. My mistake.

    My response to Daredevil is slightly sarcastic but also truthful - this thread doesn't seem like it will get Bishop nerfed alone.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,962 Chairperson of the Boards
    Therealsmkspy said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Therealsmkspy said:
    Why you don't just stop being the behavior police? Either you're just plain too sensitive and can't handle a little internet snark or you really like being on your high-horse. I really can't which, but hoping it is the former.
    Ha! There you go, reasonable discourse, lol!
    I know you’re being sarcastic, but I kind of agree with @Therealsmkspy (though it could be stated much much nicer).

    Let’s not act like there haven’t been plenty of valid arguments as to why he should be nerfed. Even jp1 admitted himself that Bishop’s mechanic is not okay (though added the “in a vacuum” qualifier, which I’d love explained more).

    Overall, I think this has been a pretty reasonable well-discussed topic. But I’m also not super-sensitive to the occasional internet snark either. If anyone is feeling emotionally triggered, it’s okay to step away rather than trying to monitor other people’s behavior. Especially if not going off-topic, being abusive, etc. Focusing on who said what to who, who started it, if two wrongs make a right, etc. is just more distraction from the actual topic (Bishop). 

    I appreciate @tiomono cutting through all that and asking @jp1 if he would like to respond to any of his arguments on why Bishop should be nerfed.
    Well, being direct is often misconstrued as being mean. I could have written a long tip toe paragraph that eventually said the same thing, but more than likely the point would have been lost in the tip toeing. 

    @daz0273, FWIW, my comment wasn't referring to you, just happened to fall under yours.
    Lol, no probs, that seems to be my lot in here!
  • Neuromancer
    Neuromancer Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    wymtime said:

    But what would a hard counter be? 

    a reasonable nerf...
    The devs have never taken suggestions from the player base in regard to character powers — that's okay, they don't pay me anyway — nor are they ever reasonable when they nerf, which is very rare. Gambit reigned supreme for many moons before he was hit with the nerf hammer at the behest of the player base. By all means, though, keep behesting, just be prepared to behest for about a year (or more) since the character isn't as effective in his lockdown as Gambit.
  • BigSoftieFF
    BigSoftieFF Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    I’ve since deleted the pics but it was definitely stated on Discord that there are no plans to nerf Bishop along with some glorious ways to perhaps handle him.

    I hope the whole forum ends up being about Bishop as it might at least drive a response but I  also believe in the grand scheme of things he’s only irritating a smallish subset of the player base.


  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,609 Chairperson of the Boards
    I find it a little wild nobody has come into this thread to at least moderate the discourse. Commenting on the character by designers is so rare I don’t think anyone honestly expects it, but usually at least the mods move in to keep things civil by now.

    i think the most reasonable “fix” for Bishop is to make his power work as worded, and stop collecting AP when he hits 10. Barring that, he needs to gain 1 blue every time you hit the threshold rather than 5
  • LLohm
    LLohm Posts: 84 Match Maker
    Or he stops jumping in front all together. Keep him the way he is but if he stops jumping, we have a choice on how to deal with him and in offence, his tanking colors can still be selected and he will retain his punching upward abilities for the 4* players.

    Most elegant solution I can think of. Does this possibly destroy his ability to let people float? Maybe but that action is the one causing all the boredom in the game where people just float all day and cause walls of Bishop to appear everywhere.
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream Posts: 2,017 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    ***Mod note: Just a friendly reminder to stay on topic and perhaps cut back a bit on the snark, as often it adds little to nothing to the discussion and tends be hit-or-miss. And as always remember to be excellent to each other. Thank you!
  • JackDeath666
    JackDeath666 Posts: 47 Just Dropped In
    Removing all inflammatory content leaves me with:

    Fix Bishop. He is broken for no reasons other than the well articulated ones above and in the separate thread. He is also making the game nearly as boring as this thread. 

    And for goodness sake, can't a developer at least post something to acknowledge that they are aware that this is an issue?
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,397 Chairperson of the Boards
    if OML was nerfed because of a greater than 10% usage, which if i'm not mistaken was their stated reasoning, then they really need to actually play their game and hit the 1600 point threshold in sim. now i'm no mathematician, but if i had to guess, about 98% of squads that come up are running him.

    it's ruining this part of the game. 

    a nerf, change or counter has to be the biggest issue right now.

    but i'm sure we'll get a new character here in a week or so.


  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Maybe the devs should stop coming up with X-men characters. Since the introduction of 5* for the elder game, X-men characters have been contributing to the majority of controversies for veterans:

    1) OML
    2) Gambit
    3) Kitty Pryde
    4) Bishop
    5) Professor X (Classic)

     :o 
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,088 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    Maybe the devs should stop coming up with X-men characters. Since the introduction of 5* for the elder game, X-men characters have been contributing to the majority of controversies for veterans:

    1) OML
    2) Gambit
    3) Kitty Pryde
    4) Bishop
    5) Professor X (Classic)

     :o 

    You can add Juggs to the list soon I’d imagine. He’s going to be a problem for the 4* tier. 
  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,213 Chairperson of the Boards
    Maybe we should all use Bishop 100% of the time, thus the over usage will call for a nerf rather then how broken the character is?

    I think it's tough for the Devs to do character reworks as then it undermines the work that someone has already put into a character building him up etc. If they over nerf him then everyone will be up in arms that he is now ruined and if they dont nerf him everyone will still be up in arms about how he is ruining the game.

    Eventually they will have to choose a path, releasing a counter character in this situation doesn't work due to the problems with dilution. 
  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,898 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    DyingLegend said:
    Maybe we should all use Bishop 100% of the time, thus the over usage will call for a nerf rather then how broken the character is?

    I think it's tough for the Devs to do character reworks as then it undermines the work that someone has already put into a character building him up etc. If they over nerf him then everyone will be up in arms that he is now ruined and if they dont nerf him everyone will still be up in arms about how he is ruining the game.

    Eventually they will have to choose a path, releasing a counter character in this situation doesn't work due to the problems with dilution. 
    The big difference though is that 4 stars aren't nearly as hard to cover as 5 stars so I don't think nerfing a 4 star will cause nearly as much outrage as with a 5 star.  I doubt nearly as many people joined buy clubs trying to get bishop covers as there were people who did with old man logan or Gambit.

    The last time I can remember a 4 star nerf causing legitimate outrage was when they nerfed X-fForce wolvie and Jane Foster, but that was because there were no 5 stars yet and those 2 were the strongest characters in the game, and just like with bishop those 2 were on the majority of teams in pvp.

    When carnage, Mr Fantastic, Kingpin, etc. got reworks I remember some people being upset but it was like 2 or 3 pages of "Oh man, that kinda sucks"  As opposed to with OML and Gambit with pages upon pages of people saying they were quiting the game over it.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    DyingLegend said:
    Maybe we should all use Bishop 100% of the time, thus the over usage will call for a nerf rather then how broken the character is?

    I think it's tough for the Devs to do character reworks as then it undermines the work that someone has already put into a character building him up etc. If they over nerf him then everyone will be up in arms that he is now ruined and if they dont nerf him everyone will still be up in arms about how he is ruining the game.

    Eventually they will have to choose a path, releasing a counter character in this situation doesn't work due to the problems with dilution. 
    I have started only playing versus events with one 5* and a 4* plus the required character. So when I want to stop I leave 5* daredevil and bishop out. I get about a 3rd of the retals as when I leave out gritty.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,088 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    DyingLegend said:
    Maybe we should all use Bishop 100% of the time, thus the over usage will call for a nerf rather then how broken the character is?

    I think it's tough for the Devs to do character reworks as then it undermines the work that someone has already put into a character building him up etc. If they over nerf him then everyone will be up in arms that he is now ruined and if they dont nerf him everyone will still be up in arms about how he is ruining the game.

    Eventually they will have to choose a path, releasing a counter character in this situation doesn't work due to the problems with dilution. 
    I have started only playing versus events with one 5* and a 4* plus the required character. So when I want to stop I leave 5* daredevil and bishop out. I get about a 3rd of the retals as when I leave out gritty.
    Same here. I mentioned in one of the Bishop threads (maybe this one?) that I can’t fully enjoy spending my 400 Pulls on Professor/Ice/Storm today knowing that playing them together means not having Bishop on defense and handicapping myself. At least Ice has some Bishop synergy with the blue outlet. And Bishop contributes to Professor’s black ability. But still, it really dampens excitement having to build around a broken 4 with around 20 5* champs. 
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    tiomono said:
    DyingLegend said:
    Maybe we should all use Bishop 100% of the time, thus the over usage will call for a nerf rather then how broken the character is?

    I think it's tough for the Devs to do character reworks as then it undermines the work that someone has already put into a character building him up etc. If they over nerf him then everyone will be up in arms that he is now ruined and if they dont nerf him everyone will still be up in arms about how he is ruining the game.

    Eventually they will have to choose a path, releasing a counter character in this situation doesn't work due to the problems with dilution. 
    I have started only playing versus events with one 5* and a 4* plus the required character. So when I want to stop I leave 5* daredevil and bishop out. I get about a 3rd of the retals as when I leave out gritty.
    Same here. I mentioned in one of the Bishop threads (maybe this one?) that I can’t fully enjoy spending my 400 Pulls on Professor/Ice/Storm today knowing that playing them together means not having Bishop on defense and handicapping myself. At least Ice has some Bishop synergy with the blue outlet. And Bishop contributes to Professor’s black ability. But still, it really dampens excitement having to build around a broken 4 with around 20 5* champs. 
    I don't get these posts.
    Bishop is a problem to go up against on offense.
    What's the difference in floating at 450 or 600?
    Either you go for wins, in which case you should welcome each and any retal.
    Or you're going for 1200, in which case you just do two extra 75 pointers to make up the difference in float points.

    Bishop is a problem, yes, but there's no reason to run him on defense yourself.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    Bowgentle said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    tiomono said:
    DyingLegend said:
    Maybe we should all use Bishop 100% of the time, thus the over usage will call for a nerf rather then how broken the character is?

    I think it's tough for the Devs to do character reworks as then it undermines the work that someone has already put into a character building him up etc. If they over nerf him then everyone will be up in arms that he is now ruined and if they dont nerf him everyone will still be up in arms about how he is ruining the game.

    Eventually they will have to choose a path, releasing a counter character in this situation doesn't work due to the problems with dilution. 
    I have started only playing versus events with one 5* and a 4* plus the required character. So when I want to stop I leave 5* daredevil and bishop out. I get about a 3rd of the retals as when I leave out gritty.
    Same here. I mentioned in one of the Bishop threads (maybe this one?) that I can’t fully enjoy spending my 400 Pulls on Professor/Ice/Storm today knowing that playing them together means not having Bishop on defense and handicapping myself. At least Ice has some Bishop synergy with the blue outlet. And Bishop contributes to Professor’s black ability. But still, it really dampens excitement having to build around a broken 4 with around 20 5* champs. 
    I don't get these posts.
    Bishop is a problem to go up against on offense.
    What's the difference in floating at 450 or 600?
    Either you go for wins, in which case you should welcome each and any retal.
    Or you're going for 1200, in which case you just do two extra 75 pointers to make up the difference in float points.

    Bishop is a problem, yes, but there's no reason to run him on defense yourself.
    You get dramatically fewer retals leaving him on defense and not shielding. I'm about 16 hours unshielded in dooms event and only 3 hits.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    tiomono said:
    Bowgentle said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    tiomono said:
    DyingLegend said:
    Maybe we should all use Bishop 100% of the time, thus the over usage will call for a nerf rather then how broken the character is?

    I think it's tough for the Devs to do character reworks as then it undermines the work that someone has already put into a character building him up etc. If they over nerf him then everyone will be up in arms that he is now ruined and if they dont nerf him everyone will still be up in arms about how he is ruining the game.

    Eventually they will have to choose a path, releasing a counter character in this situation doesn't work due to the problems with dilution. 
    I have started only playing versus events with one 5* and a 4* plus the required character. So when I want to stop I leave 5* daredevil and bishop out. I get about a 3rd of the retals as when I leave out gritty.
    Same here. I mentioned in one of the Bishop threads (maybe this one?) that I can’t fully enjoy spending my 400 Pulls on Professor/Ice/Storm today knowing that playing them together means not having Bishop on defense and handicapping myself. At least Ice has some Bishop synergy with the blue outlet. And Bishop contributes to Professor’s black ability. But still, it really dampens excitement having to build around a broken 4 with around 20 5* champs. 
    I don't get these posts.
    Bishop is a problem to go up against on offense.
    What's the difference in floating at 450 or 600?
    Either you go for wins, in which case you should welcome each and any retal.
    Or you're going for 1200, in which case you just do two extra 75 pointers to make up the difference in float points.

    Bishop is a problem, yes, but there's no reason to run him on defense yourself.
    You get dramatically fewer retals leaving him on defense and not shielding. I'm about 16 hours unshielded in dooms event and only 3 hits.
    I get that, but are you floating at meaningful points, like 1K+?
    Else why bother when you can grab 75 point retals when you start your final climb.

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