Nerf Bishop

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  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,069 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Sounds like a good fit for CM. Would help take her off the bench too.
  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
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    #savebishop

     :D 
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Back when Gambit was wondering around in the wild with V1 or V2 I made this suggestion.  

    Doctor Strange, Eye of Agamotto (one of the most useless powers in the game, was to redesign this as a passive blocker.  Make it a low AP like 6, and when his Eye is out all passives are blocked.  This could be tied to the current MCU of the Eye with the Time Stone if you would want to.  But again here we are taking about how a character in the tier above it could help beat a lower character. 
  • Zeofar
    Zeofar Posts: 45 Just Dropped In
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    tiomono said:

    Lol needing to have a character designed to counter the tier below them should be a clear indicator of op.
    This is an invented problem though. You're mandating that the character needs to be from a higher tier because otherwise you won't use it (as characters that can handily beat Bishop already exist in lower tiers). And the character must be designed to counter Bishop specifically because otherwise... it would be harder to make this point? It's an arbitrary specification that comes from begging the question; Bishop is made to appear more problematic than he is because the solution you want to entertain is a targeted counter, not because it's what makes the most sense.
  • dkffiv
    dkffiv Posts: 1,039 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Zeofar said:
    tiomono said:

    Lol needing to have a character designed to counter the tier below them should be a clear indicator of op.
    This is an invented problem though. You're mandating that the character needs to be from a higher tier because otherwise you won't use it (as characters that can handily beat Bishop already exist in lower tiers). And the character must be designed to counter Bishop specifically because otherwise... it would be harder to make this point? It's an arbitrary specification that comes from begging the question; Bishop is made to appear more problematic than he is because the solution you want to entertain is a targeted counter, not because it's what makes the most sense.
    Unless its PvE you cannot use a lower tier character to "counter" or you get slaughtered by other teams and negate and gains you would get from winning a battle.

    Bishop Gritty is only tolerable because the AI almost never uses his stun.  Bishop Valk Kitty is more dangerous and bringing BSSM is virtually a must (if you dont have Spiderman you're basically out of luck).  Bishop Strange Okoye can go sideways very fast and its almost a coin toss (I've had all 3 members stunned and had to wait it out).  Mirror matches also have the disadvantage of the enemy Bishop gaining AP first.

    Hulks trigger is 5% of his HP and you can avoid hitting him.  Bishop is 3% and he automatically jumps to the front.  That's the problem.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,916 Chairperson of the Boards
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    So here’s what I’m thinking...

    Bishop is mostly a 5* problem. 

    5* players are comprised of those who have supported this game for years either through time or money. 

    The Anniversary is a celebration all about thanking players for supporting MPQ all these years. 

    What if a Bishop nerf is being saved for anniversary as a way of saying “thank you” to the veteran players. 

    He won’t ever hit OmL/Gambit use numbers, because you simply CANT use him every match due to the health pack suck. So hopefully this is a case where the developers are listening to FEEDBACK and not just looking at numbers. 

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,166 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ^^I think that's the thing that keeps getting lost in the Bishop counter discussion by people talking about the non-5* options- there are other 4*s that can counter similarly leveled Bishops, but 5* players aren't seeing similarly leveled Bishops, they're seeing 350+ lvl Bishops that can 1-shot an unboosted baby-champ 4* as often as not.

    In my experience, it takes the better part of a calendar year to take an unfed 4* up to competitive levels by pulling as you go (I've been working on Chavez exclusively since late january this year, she's gone from 285->330 in the last 7 months). I assume it would take a comparable amount of time to save up the resources to hoard and do that all at once, so if you aren't already in a position to survive these fights you're still stuck in this meta for AT LEAST a real human year.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
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    Zeofar said:
    tiomono said:

    Lol needing to have a character designed to counter the tier below them should be a clear indicator of op.
    This is an invented problem though. You're mandating that the character needs to be from a higher tier because otherwise you won't use it (as characters that can handily beat Bishop already exist in lower tiers). And the character must be designed to counter Bishop specifically because otherwise... it would be harder to make this point? It's an arbitrary specification that comes from begging the question; Bishop is made to appear more problematic than he is because the solution you want to entertain is a targeted counter, not because it's what makes the most sense.
    So who handily beats bishop in the 3 or 4 star tier? Because if you are in 5* mmr and run a full team of 3 and 4 stars, you won't get far. If you put a single 5* champ on your team bishop is a nightmare.

    Bishop being OP specifically vs 5* rosters is not an invented problem. If a 4 star counter came out that specifically punished what bishop does I would run him vs bishop. I say a 5 star counter would be good because that's who struggles against him. 

    If no specific counter to bishop comes then what's the other option? Nerf him. I dont want any characters nerfed. So sure a counter is the solution I want to entertain. What other solution to my "invented" 14 page problem makes more sense then?  
  • therightwaye
    therightwaye Posts: 459 Mover and Shaker
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    May I suggest nerf release schedule also.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,166 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
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    tiomono said:
    If no specific counter to bishop comes then what's the other option? Nerf him. I dont want any characters nerfed. So sure a counter is the solution I want to entertain. What other solution to my "invented" 14 page problem makes more sense then?  
    Dazzler + Special Generator (rocket or Valkyrie) if you can get her to tank - this is where the "similarly leveled" distinction gets made. Dazzler does something, eats a retal, stuns bishop and removes N specials from the board, now it's a race. 

    Since my 2 5* champions both overlap most of her strong colors, and in the case of Ghost Rider all of her strong colors, I can't run her on a non-4* team. And as a Sub-280 champ, her health is so low that she is basically dead after 1 max-champ bishop retal combined with a max-champ rocket strike spread, if not outright dead.

    Here's a fight I just Queued up in Simulator:

    Bishop: 294
    Kitty: 458
    Rocket: 370

    I took:
    Lvl 279 Valkyrie (14,489 Hit Points)
    299 Rocket
    297 Gamora
    and +2 blue to kickstart the stun games

    The only color Dazzler tanks for me on this team is Black. I targeted Bishop, made a black match, ate just under 7k damage, stunned Bishop for 3 turns and removed all enemy strikes. Kitty did Circuit Breaker, and that became the new danger. I spent most of my time chasing blue to maintain the Stun with G4mora, but the enemy rocket was able to get the bomb out, and then wiped my whole team by matching it early. I killed bishop, and did about 30% damage to Kitty, and that was the extent of my success.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    tiomono said:
    If no specific counter to bishop comes then what's the other option? Nerf him. I dont want any characters nerfed. So sure a counter is the solution I want to entertain. What other solution to my "invented" 14 page problem makes more sense then?  
    Dazzler + Special Generator (rocket or Valkyrie) if you can get her to tank - this is where the "similarly leveled" distinction gets made. Dazzler does something, eats a retal, stuns bishop and removes N specials from the board, now it's a race. 

    Since my 2 5* champions both overlap most of her strong colors, and in the case of Ghost Rider all of her strong colors, I can't run her on a non-4* team. And as a Sub-280 champ, her health is so low that she is basically dead after 1 max-champ bishop retal combined with a max-champ rocket strike spread, if not outright dead.
    I'm gonna beat the horse one more time.

    As s 5* player, who handily beats bishop? I know you didnt make that claim, but someone else did. They even used plural. 

    Kitty is another problem character. Because she boosts specials and removes specials. You can counter her with characters that remove or reduce specials, boardshake, board manipulate, stun cheap, even just keep her specials below her buff threshold. There are multiple ways to deal with her from multiple champs in multiple tiers.

    A 5* player cannot even do a match 3 without being punished and outclassed by bishop. Which eliminates boardshake, board manipulation, cheap stuns, or any other tactic currently in the game to deal with an opponent. You cannot target him first or last, because he will do what he does either way. You cannot take 2 or 3 4* characters into a bishop with a 5* star teammate and reliably win while doing decent in placement. Unless I am missing something
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,069 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Perhaps we could just rally to have Bishop converted to a 5*. 

    Im in support of a Bishop buff.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
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    The rockett said:
    Back when Gambit was wondering around in the wild with V1 or V2 I made this suggestion.  

    Doctor Strange, Eye of Agamotto (one of the most useless powers in the game, was to redesign this as a passive blocker.  Make it a low AP like 6, and when his Eye is out all passives are blocked.  This could be tied to the current MCU of the Eye with the Time Stone if you would want to.  But again here we are taking about how a character in the tier above it could help beat a lower character. 
    And again best case scenario you need 2 match 3's of the same color before you can fire that power. That's not a reliable option to counter bishop. Look at lumbercap as a counter to gambit.

    Bishop is such an odd problem for 5*'s.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,166 Chairperson of the Boards
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    tiomono said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    tiomono said:
    If no specific counter to bishop comes then what's the other option? Nerf him. I dont want any characters nerfed. So sure a counter is the solution I want to entertain. What other solution to my "invented" 14 page problem makes more sense then?  
    Dazzler + Special Generator (rocket or Valkyrie) if you can get her to tank - this is where the "similarly leveled" distinction gets made. Dazzler does something, eats a retal, stuns bishop and removes N specials from the board, now it's a race. 

    Since my 2 5* champions both overlap most of her strong colors, and in the case of Ghost Rider all of her strong colors, I can't run her on a non-4* team. And as a Sub-280 champ, her health is so low that she is basically dead after 1 max-champ bishop retal combined with a max-champ rocket strike spread, if not outright dead.
    I'm gonna beat the horse one more time.

    As s 5* player, who handily beats bishop? I know you didnt make that claim, but someone else did. They even used plural. 
    My point in bringing up Dazzler was that she can auto-stun in retaliation to taking damage. So you do have to eat at least one hit, but it gives you a little room to breath. but if you can't get her to tank over your 5*s, which is my situation, then it doesn't work.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    tiomono said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    tiomono said:
    If no specific counter to bishop comes then what's the other option? Nerf him. I dont want any characters nerfed. So sure a counter is the solution I want to entertain. What other solution to my "invented" 14 page problem makes more sense then?  
    Dazzler + Special Generator (rocket or Valkyrie) if you can get her to tank - this is where the "similarly leveled" distinction gets made. Dazzler does something, eats a retal, stuns bishop and removes N specials from the board, now it's a race. 

    Since my 2 5* champions both overlap most of her strong colors, and in the case of Ghost Rider all of her strong colors, I can't run her on a non-4* team. And as a Sub-280 champ, her health is so low that she is basically dead after 1 max-champ bishop retal combined with a max-champ rocket strike spread, if not outright dead.
    I'm gonna beat the horse one more time.

    As s 5* player, who handily beats bishop? I know you didnt make that claim, but someone else did. They even used plural. 
    My point in bringing up Dazzler was that she can auto-stun in retaliation to taking damage. So you do have to eat at least one hit, but it gives you a little room to breath. but if you can't get her to tank over your 5*s, which is my situation, then it doesn't work.
    Does dazzler work if the enemy has no specials? Or does she need friendly and enemy specials to trigger her black?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,166 Chairperson of the Boards
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    tiomono said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    tiomono said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    tiomono said:
    If no specific counter to bishop comes then what's the other option? Nerf him. I dont want any characters nerfed. So sure a counter is the solution I want to entertain. What other solution to my "invented" 14 page problem makes more sense then?  
    Dazzler + Special Generator (rocket or Valkyrie) if you can get her to tank - this is where the "similarly leveled" distinction gets made. Dazzler does something, eats a retal, stuns bishop and removes N specials from the board, now it's a race. 

    Since my 2 5* champions both overlap most of her strong colors, and in the case of Ghost Rider all of her strong colors, I can't run her on a non-4* team. And as a Sub-280 champ, her health is so low that she is basically dead after 1 max-champ bishop retal combined with a max-champ rocket strike spread, if not outright dead.
    I'm gonna beat the horse one more time.

    As s 5* player, who handily beats bishop? I know you didnt make that claim, but someone else did. They even used plural. 
    My point in bringing up Dazzler was that she can auto-stun in retaliation to taking damage. So you do have to eat at least one hit, but it gives you a little room to breath. but if you can't get her to tank over your 5*s, which is my situation, then it doesn't work.
    Does dazzler work if the enemy has no specials? Or does she need friendly and enemy specials to trigger her black?
    Just friendly, enemy is not required 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
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    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    tiomono said:
    If no specific counter to bishop comes then what's the other option? Nerf him. I dont want any characters nerfed. So sure a counter is the solution I want to entertain. What other solution to my "invented" 14 page problem makes more sense then?  
    Dazzler + Special Generator (rocket or Valkyrie) if you can get her to tank - this is where the "similarly leveled" distinction gets made. Dazzler does something, eats a retal, stuns bishop and removes N specials from the board, now it's a race. 

    Since my 2 5* champions both overlap most of her strong colors, and in the case of Ghost Rider all of her strong colors, I can't run her on a non-4* team. And as a Sub-280 champ, her health is so low that she is basically dead after 1 max-champ bishop retal combined with a max-champ rocket strike spread, if not outright dead.

    Here's a fight I just Queued up in Simulator:

    Bishop: 294
    Kitty: 458
    Rocket: 370

    I took:
    Lvl 279 Valkyrie (14,489 Hit Points)
    299 Rocket
    297 Gamora
    and +2 blue to kickstart the stun games

    The only color Dazzler tanks for me on this team is Black. I targeted Bishop, made a black match, ate just under 7k damage, stunned Bishop for 3 turns and removed all enemy strikes. Kitty did Circuit Breaker, and that became the new danger. I spent most of my time chasing blue to maintain the Stun with G4mora, but the enemy rocket was able to get the bomb out, and then wiped my whole team by matching it early. I killed bishop, and did about 30% damage to Kitty, and that was the extent of my success.
    I would think dazzler would tank nothing if you brought gamora, groot, and valkyrie. ;)
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,166 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Lol, typo; dazzler rocket and gamora was the team.
  • purplemur
    purplemur Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    edited August 2019
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    so please help me understand, 
    As i know the MMR if I run all 4* chars that will be my defensive team vs my defensive team being the last team I ran that consisted of all 3*'s?
    So if you been grinding above the MMR point differential with 5* teams and then ran 4* gamorshop you would still be defending with the last highest level team?
    So why would you be "Slaughtered" if you hunted bishop teams with 4* combos?
    And if your t20 aren't you facing the same people all the time anyway? who all understand and run the meta to ahem be meta.... so ... uhm.... how will the next meta not be boring and ubiquitous also? ya'll hated on gambit for 9 months and they nerfed him to deaf. to the tinykitty grave. NOBODY. i mean NOBODY runs him in wild. great "fix". is that balance from all the time to never? seems...extreme. So now only those players who run all 5* teams all the time only in PvP need a character totally ruined in every other aspect in the game for every other player outside the top .02%?

    just stop ruining the game for the rest of us.  I have to fight 5* teams that outmatch me all day long, bishop helps me, he traveled back in time to stop Apoc and he'll stop you too ya big bully.
    Let's brainstorm ways to beat him not nerf him!

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