Sinister 600 Poll: How do you like this event?

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  • Neuromancer
    Neuromancer Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    edited December 2018
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    Love it!!
    4* Player; I enjoy the new event, as I also enjoy marvel Villains. Max prog'd Deadly on the first day (thanks to Whales, Whales, Whales), now backing off to Hard for these final days. I wish the event would be more Villainous, but I'll take what I can get.

    The event definitely has its (big) kinks. Some in my alliance were complaining about a bug that locked them out of the event after beating Ending an Era (Red Goblin), but I'm uncertain of their experience. I could re-enter after I beat him, and I haven't seen mention of this bug in these forums, so I dunno. The alliance had to pullback to Hard to try for a day's max progression, but I think some lack Ock, so we haven't been able to get a 4* yet. That's okay, I guess, my Nebula has 5 reds anyway, but a couple saved covers would be nice.

    Given how bumpy the new ride is, I think I'm going to continue asking D3 to change up the stories on their current events, and give us new story path choices (and reward ladders) based upon the affiliations we decide to use in an event's starting node.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Love it!!
    TPF Alexis said:
    Phumade said:
    bbigler said:
    I haven't read all the posts, but has anyone mentioned that you can't get full personal progression rewards without 5*Ock in the Hard or Deadly nodes?  I assume the Easy and Medium subs don't require Doc Ock, but then you're sacrificing alliance rewards.  The point is that every other PVE event allows you to get full personal progression without the required 5*, except this one.

    No you could have gotten the progression with 4 days of the medium as well.  

    The point is, if you play Medium, there are no 4* covers in the Alliance Progression Rewards. So you have to give up those, one way or another, if you don't have Doc Ock.
    Alliance progression only exists in boss event.  Presumably t250 alliances can get Through red 6 and 1 4* reward with just 4* rosters (270-350j and good coordination.  I believe that and it’s reasonable expectation

    raid events are prusambly higher tier events that require better roosters and coordination.  The gate here is 14 rosters who can finish hard or better and good communication.

    Whether the gate should be 14 elite rosters or a smattering of whale to minnow is a fair debate for the accountants and base and I’ll let you carry on your crusade their.

    but with that said I absolutely support a higher tier gated event that explicitly differentiates from existing pve with higher requirements

    as it stands
    1.  Regular pve is just alliance placement.
    2.  Boss event is just alliance progression.
    3.  Raid event is just alliance progression with higher gate requirement.

    at the of the day WOW 40 man raids suck when theirs a disparity in levels for the party.  It’s no different here.
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
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    sinnerjfl said:
    The difficulty seems to be higher than usual which doesnt bother me but since this event asks that 14 other people can compete at the same level in your alliance, that makes it a lot worse than it needs to be. Also doesnt help that Ock is the featured 5E as he's been mostly ignored by a lot of people.

    Did D3/DU bring The Grinch as a special consultant to make up these rewards? The same Nebula cover 4 times, only 1 token to the special store (its 2 usually), 4 x 5 CP is not even enough for another token btw that is if your alliance can even reach that.

    This is more difficult for less rewards than a normal boss event or pve, makes it hard to love it.
    Hmm.....this sounds like another meeting that @Punisher5784 would do, except when they just delete the post. It would be very interesting to get a Christmas D3/Demi Meeting with the Punisher and the Grinch. 
  • AlexR
    AlexR Posts: 427 Mover and Shaker
    edited December 2018
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    Phumade said:
    Alliance progression only exists in boss event.  Presumably t250 alliances can get Through red 6 and 1 4* reward with just 4* rosters (270-350j and good coordination.  I believe that and it’s reasonable expectation

    raid events are prusambly higher tier events that require better roosters and coordination.  The gate here is 14 rosters who can finish hard or better and good communication.

    Whether the gate should be 14 elite rosters or a smattering of whale to minnow is a fair debate for the accountants and base and I’ll let you carry on your crusade their.

    but with that said I absolutely support a higher tier gated event that explicitly differentiates from existing pve with higher requirements

    as it stands
    1.  Regular pve is just alliance placement.
    2.  Boss event is just alliance progression.
    3.  Raid event is just alliance progression with higher gate requirement.

    at the of the day WOW 40 man raids suck when theirs a disparity in levels for the party.  It’s no different here.

     "Alliance progression only exists in boss event. Presumably t250 alliances can get Through red 6 and 1 4* reward with just 4* rosters (270-350j and good coordination.  I believe that and it’s reasonable expectation" confuses me lots, because it sounds like you're talking about boss events. If so, let me assure you t250 alliances are easily capable of completing boss events fully and generally do. Pretty much every single t250 alliance I was ever a part of has either managed to complete boss events or fallen just shy of it. Alliances that can only complete Round 6 of bosses are generally very very casual. Probably more along the lines of t1000.

    Apart from that, I suppose I would mind idea of a more full progression gated event less if the rewards weren't so backlogged. The only worthwhile thing is the 4* cover and that's heavily gated. No one in 3-4*+ land cares about a Blade cover or two. That's a 3* champ level. Upping full progression to hardcore levels shouldn't come at the expense of making the event unrewarding for semi-dedicated alliances. Like, for the last two days our alliance got to 110k/130k points on Hard and that gets you pretty much nothing substantial and is generally not worth anyone's time. Which is a shame, because I'm actually enjoying the varied battles.

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
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    If they are presumably higher tier events that require better rosters and coordination, how come the rewards are weaker?

    Usually, in pve it is possible to reach progression without grinding everything fully. It's closer to 2/3 of possible points available to reach full progression. Also, it is possible to earn the essential character in progression if you're missing one. I believe all that stayed true in the PoP raid event.

    This time however, it really looks like Grinch helped with rewards. :/

    If you're missing Domino, you can't reach her playing the easier subs 4 days. But you can if you play hard/deadly subs. At least 3 out of 4 days. And by "play", I mean clear everything possible (except for the missing essential) fully. And then, even if you play first 3 days on hard/deadly (to minimize missing points) and get Domino on the 4th day in any difficulty, you'll still miss the final reward, legendary token. And then to top it all off, the same color cover...

    This is supposed to be alliance event first, and it's supposed to be a game and FUN. But set up as this was, if you find it fun to win some meaningful rewards for your roster level, you might only find it if your entire alliance is above a certain level. I'm all for giving stronger teams even better rewards, but a team event should never give either all or nothing for the whole team. 

    At this point, this 2nd raid event rewards feel like a tax we players need to pay for the awesome rewards we got in the 1st, anniversary version.


  • spidyjedi84
    spidyjedi84 Posts: 514 Critical Contributor
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    Hate it!!
    bbigler said:
    I haven't read all the posts, but has anyone mentioned that you can't get full personal progression rewards without 5*Ock in the Hard or Deadly nodes?  I assume the Easy and Medium subs don't require Doc Ock, but then you're sacrificing alliance rewards.  The point is that every other PVE event allows you to get full personal progression without the required 5*, except this one.

    Plus, it's really dumb that the 4* cover reward is the same one everyday.  My 1/5/5 Nebula is not happy at all. 
    I mentioned that in my comment. Easy or normal don't require Doc Ock, and I'm just hanging there now to try and limp my way to at least a Domino cover in personal Progression. Morale from my Alliance for this event is non-existent, aside from complaining about it.
  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 991 Critical Contributor
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    I voted mixed, but I'd be on the hate it side of mixed. Much like everyone else:

    Like:
    Not time dependent--can play whenever within the 12 hour window
    It's new! It's different!
    The last node with 3 one-on-one matchups was interesting, and I appreciate that the AP reset for the enemy (but not the player) between rounds

    Dislike:
    Prizes were somewhat weak and/or hard to achieve
    Deadly was brutal. And for me it wasted a day, which means I'm likely not hitting full individual progression
    14 full clears in one day in one region to get max progression??? Who thought that was a good idea or achievable for any but the top alliances?
    This one is more personal, but I'm not a big fan of any of the boosted characters. Maybe it's because I don't have the 4*s champed, or haven't figured out how to use them properly. But I wasn't excited to play any of them except Yondu and he was slightly underwhelming--takes too long to get enough blue.

    I appreciate the effort they made. But I'd lean this one to the "miss" column.

  • Erunner1201
    Erunner1201 Posts: 32 Just Dropped In
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    I like the event.  I commend the devs for trying out another event and giving us new content.  This gives us a rest from the same old boring content that we have had for the past 5 years.  

    I really do like the aspect of being able to perform clears within a 24 hour period.  Better than the feeling that you have to grind at a specific time.

    I do think that the rewards can be better but I am happy for a more relaxed event over a weekend.
  • TPF Alexis
    TPF Alexis Posts: 3,826 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Phumade said:
    TPF Alexis said:
    Phumade said:
    bbigler said:
    I haven't read all the posts, but has anyone mentioned that you can't get full personal progression rewards without 5*Ock in the Hard or Deadly nodes?  I assume the Easy and Medium subs don't require Doc Ock, but then you're sacrificing alliance rewards.  The point is that every other PVE event allows you to get full personal progression without the required 5*, except this one.

    No you could have gotten the progression with 4 days of the medium as well.  

    The point is, if you play Medium, there are no 4* covers in the Alliance Progression Rewards. So you have to give up those, one way or another, if you don't have Doc Ock.
    Alliance progression only exists in boss event.  Presumably t250 alliances can get Through red 6 and 1 4* reward with just 4* rosters (270-350j and good coordination.  I believe that and it’s reasonable expectation

    raid events are prusambly higher tier events that require better roosters and coordination.  The gate here is 14 rosters who can finish hard or better and good communication.

    Whether the gate should be 14 elite rosters or a smattering of whale to minnow is a fair debate for the accountants and base and I’ll let you carry on your crusade their.

    but with that said I absolutely support a higher tier gated event that explicitly differentiates from existing pve with higher requirements

    as it stands
    1.  Regular pve is just alliance placement.
    2.  Boss event is just alliance progression.
    3.  Raid event is just alliance progression with higher gate requirement.

    at the of the day WOW 40 man raids suck when theirs a disparity in levels for the party.  It’s no different here.
    I can't say for sure, but I get the impression that you haven't been in a T250 Alliance for some time. I'm in one of the better T250 Alliances, usually close to T100. 120-150th or so. We regularly finish Boss Events in 40 hours or so. We're 147th in S600 right now. Only about half of the Alliance is capable of fully clearing Deadly, and even getting full Progression on Hard is stretching us to the limit.
    And yeah, the intent is clearly to have some gating. But the way it's set up, even the second tier down from the top is substantially harder than a normal Boss event. All tiers require tight coordination, and splitting up so people at different levels can play to their level hurts everyone. It seems to me that it would be much more reasonable to have something like Hard be clear-able for actual T250 Alliances, Deadly for T100, and then Medium and Easy feasible for low-level, but fairly full Alliances.
    I am absolutely not trying to argue that an Alliance like mine should be able to max Deadly. But us being able to max Hard doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation.
  • Pants1000
    Pants1000 Posts: 484 Mover and Shaker
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    Love it!!
    I’m enjoying the event, but I can see why others don’t.  I’m in a well coordinated t50 PVE Alliance, and have Doc Ock champed, so getting top rewards isn’t a problem.  I like the challenge.

    I don’t really like the alliance coordination part.  I’d rather each person got to select their level and scale rewards appropriately.  

    If they run this event again, I just hope they adjust the rewards to give out different colors of the 4*.  That was a mistake or a bad decision.  My Nebula is champed so it doesn’t affect me personally, but I know there are plenty of others with something like a 2/2/8 Nebula now.


  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2018
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    Love it!!
    TPF Alexis said:
    I can't say for sure, but I get the impression that you haven't been in a T250 Alliance for some time. I'm in one of the better T250 Alliances, usually close to T100. 120-150th or so. We regularly finish Boss Events in 40 hours or so. We're 147th in S600 right now. Only about half of the Alliance is capable of fully clearing Deadly, and even getting full Progression on Hard is stretching us to the limit.
    And yeah, the intent is clearly to have some gating. But the way it's set up, even the second tier down from the top is substantially harder than a normal Boss event. All tiers require tight coordination, and splitting up so people at different levels can play to their level hurts everyone. It seems to me that it would be much more reasonable to have something like Hard be clear-able for actual T250 Alliances, Deadly for T100, and then Medium and Easy feasible for low-level, but fairly full Alliances.
    I am absolutely not trying to argue that an Alliance like mine should be able to max Deadly. But us being able to max Hard doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation.
    I think you really misunderstand how boss events work.  finishing in 40hrs really means your doing in in under 2days or your finishing before side node scaling has gotten past 400.  Overall higher alliance finishes in boss events reflect how well the alliance communicates and coordinates WHEN they play nodes.  I.e.  the Boss event leaderboard measures the best coordinated alliances not the biggest/heavest rosters

    But the hard/deadly raid subs are explicitly written for 400+ rosters.  The equivalent in boss event terms is: "Can your roster do the round 7, round 8 side nodes?  and yes I believe there are 250+ alliances that can do a boss event before round 7 of the side nodes start.  There are more than enough points to do that.

    So saying t250 as it relates to boss event is inaccurate on my part.  You are absolutely right there are over 250 alliances that can finish round 8 before it gets to the last 2 scaling cycles and over level 400 teams.

    I would have no issues saying Level 400+ rosters,  Level 350+rosters, Level 200, Level 100.

    edit:  For what its worth,  I did day 2 with just a champed doc ock, 390 kitty, 370 groot.  basically 30 levels below their warning and used 1 hp for the full clear.  I'll try day 3 deadly with just level 350 chars.  Having a roster that can only do round 6 of a boss event doesn't relate to competing against Level 450 chars.
  • Moon Roach
    Moon Roach Posts: 2,863 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Hate it!!
    Not a fan, and no one in my alliance seems to want to play the event.  On day 3, only 3 of us have over 10000 points, and only 2 are on track for personal progression.  Both of those are me.
    If they want an event that engages the player base, this it is not.
  • AlexR
    AlexR Posts: 427 Mover and Shaker
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    Phumade said:
    I think you really misunderstand how boss events work.  finishing in 40hrs really means your doing in in under 2days or your finishing before side node scaling has gotten past 400.  Overall higher alliance finishes in boss events reflect how well the alliance communicates and coordinates WHEN they play nodes.  I.e.  the Boss event leaderboard measures the best coordinated alliances not the biggest/heavest rosters

    But the hard/deadly raid subs are explicitly written for 400+ rosters.  The equivalent in boss event terms is: "Can your roster do the round 7, round 8 side nodes?  and yes I believe there are 250+ alliances that can do a boss event before round 7 of the side nodes start.  There are more than enough points to do that.

    So saying t250 as it relates to boss event is inaccurate on my part.  You are absolutely right there are over 250 alliances that can finish round 8 before it gets to the last 2 scaling cycles and over level 400 teams.

    I would have no issues saying Level 400+ rosters,  Level 350+rosters, Level 200, Level 100.

    edit:  For what its worth,  I did day 2 with just a champed doc ock, 390 kitty, 370 groot.  basically 30 levels below their warning and used 1 hp for the full clear.  I'll try day 3 deadly with just level 350 chars.  Having a roster that can only do round 6 of a boss event doesn't relate to competing against Level 450 chars.
    I don't understand your argument.

    First, while Deadly is pretty clearly meant for 5* rosters, Hard... isn't. Hard is lvl 180-300. Basically, 3-4* transition to 4* land. You don't need 350+ rosters for that at all, not even a little, not even slightly. It's pretty comfortably doable for lvl 270 4* rosters. If you don't think alliances with dominantly 3-4* / 4* rosters should do Hard, what do you think they should do for appropriate rewards? Medium for a single 3* Blade?

    Second, selecting the right difficulty doesn't actually adress the problem of needing 14-15 people doing 100% minimum to earn any sort of reward that people actually care about.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,477 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Love it!!
    AlexR said:
    Phumade said:
    I think you really misunderstand how boss events work.  finishing in 40hrs really means your doing in in under 2days or your finishing before side node scaling has gotten past 400.  Overall higher alliance finishes in boss events reflect how well the alliance communicates and coordinates WHEN they play nodes.  I.e.  the Boss event leaderboard measures the best coordinated alliances not the biggest/heavest rosters

    But the hard/deadly raid subs are explicitly written for 400+ rosters.  The equivalent in boss event terms is: "Can your roster do the round 7, round 8 side nodes?  and yes I believe there are 250+ alliances that can do a boss event before round 7 of the side nodes start.  There are more than enough points to do that.

    So saying t250 as it relates to boss event is inaccurate on my part.  You are absolutely right there are over 250 alliances that can finish round 8 before it gets to the last 2 scaling cycles and over level 400 teams.

    I would have no issues saying Level 400+ rosters,  Level 350+rosters, Level 200, Level 100.

    edit:  For what its worth,  I did day 2 with just a champed doc ock, 390 kitty, 370 groot.  basically 30 levels below their warning and used 1 hp for the full clear.  I'll try day 3 deadly with just level 350 chars.  Having a roster that can only do round 6 of a boss event doesn't relate to competing against Level 450 chars.
    I don't understand your argument.

    First, while Deadly is pretty clearly meant for 5* rosters, Hard... isn't. Hard is lvl 180-300. Basically, 3-4* transition to 4* land. You don't need 350+ rosters for that at all, not even a little, not even slightly. It's pretty comfortably doable for lvl 270 4* rosters. If you don't think alliances with dominantly 3-4* / 4* rosters should do Hard, what do you think they should do for appropriate rewards? Medium for a single 3* Blade?

    Second, selecting the right difficulty doesn't actually adress the problem of needing 14-15 people doing 100% minimum to earn any sort of reward that people actually care about.
    I have no idea what you mean by 3*/4* rosters.  All I know is I can put any 270-350 char out and feel comfortable beating 350-400 oppoonents.  My Level 400 chars have no issue beating any of the nodes in deadly.

    I won't refer to the subs by tiers or by deadly/hard other than to say if you want to beat deadly you need to run chars in the 350+ range.

    If you want to complete hard you need a 270+roster, because I do believe 3x270 char can reasonably win a 3 wave level 300 battle with minimal issues.

    So I don't have a problem saying it should have read just deadly.  At the end the day, my point is that it is not realistic to expect a 3x 300 team to survive 3 different rounds against a 450 champion.  Thats a marginal matchup at best as documented in the past by the SS and OML playthrough nodes.

    and I do suspect the people who are complaining about this event can't realistically put out level 300+ teams.

    at the end of the day as a boss raid event or (progression + roster gate)  don't have any problems saying.

    Deadly = 14 players who average 10 chars over 400+ should get full progression every 4* + cpday
    Hard = 14 players who average 10 chars over 270+ should get full progession every  4* day
    medium = 14 players who average 10 chars over 180 should get full progression for medium 3*

    whether you think that 14 should be 10 or lower can be your conversation with the d3 accountants but I have no qualms on putting roster checks on event rewards.



  • AlexR
    AlexR Posts: 427 Mover and Shaker
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    @Phumade. I tend to refer to rosters as 3* or 4* or 5* rosters, depending if you dominantly use 3* or 4* or 5* characters. Roster levels can change depending on boosted characters, so I find that clearer. Apologies if that caused confusion.
    Personally, my problem is not the difficulty. It makes sense that there's a difficulty for 5* rosters and it makes sense that an alliance that's nowhere near that level wouldn't be able to fully clear that. And sure, people who've picked Deadly because they expected the same difficulty as in the last raid event probably had a rough awakening (we did too! My 270 roster had to fully clear Deadly on the first day, that was certainly a struggle.)
    and I do suspect the people who are complaining about this event can't realistically put out level 300+ teams.
    Yeah, I got that impression from your posts. tbh that's mostly why I kept trying to argue with you. :P That attitude of "if you're complaining about it, you just aren't playing on a realistic difficulty for your roster" Because in this thread alone and in the other one there have been a lot of complaints that weren't primarily about the difficulty itself. From progression being so tightly calculated that there is no room for error or missing essentials to sucky rewards to the 14 people requirement feeling punishing to the 4* cover not rotating in colour and therefore being pretty silly.
    Frankly, I think they should keep the difficulties as-is, so I guess in that regard I agree with you.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2018
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    Love it!!
    I think many are used to cruising or sleeping on most boss events and getting top rewards the past couple of years, and when reality (or true essence of alliance event) kicks in, everyone got a shock. 

    The diffiiculty level from the beginning till the end of most boss/alliance events could be categorised as (from an all champed 3* roster pov):

    1) 40% easy mode
    2) 40% medium mode
    3) 20% hard/deadly mode

    What Sinister 600 has done is revealing the weaknesses (if any) of every single member in your alliance, something that most boss events didn't accomplish. It's simply because the top few players can cover up for a few weaker or newer players in those events and yet still get the final alliance progression reward. You can't really do that in Sinister 600 anymore. 

    Usually, the leader will sit down with his team on what went wrong and what went right. They will then come up with a plan to improve things so that next time when the same or similar event happens again, they are better prepared for it.

    Over here, the solution, that I feel, seems to be "the devs need to make things easier while we continue to do things the same way so that we still can get the top rewards."

    Some small improvements could still be made to this event. In order to improve things, we need data. Let's start with facts.

    1. Parent chapter nodes are worth 600 points or 2400 points over 4 days.
    2. Sub-chapter nodes are worth a total of 9300 points or 37,200 points over 4 days.
    3. Points needed for final rewards for both individual and alliance progression are 37,000 and 130,200 respectively. Domino cover in personal progression requires 34,500 points.
    4. The maximum points that can be earned individually is 2400 +  (9300x4) = 39,600.
    5.The margin of error for full personal progression reward is 39,600 - 37,000 = 2600.
    6. 5* essential node is worth a total of 1600 points.
    7. 70% of the alliance need to make full progression in order to get Nebula cover. 85% if all members don't have 5* essentials.

    Using hard mode as an example,

    1) 14 members or 70% of the alliance with all essentials are needed to get the Nebula cover each day.
    3) Even if all 20 members don't have 5* Dr. Ock, 17 members are needed to hit the last reward.
    Formula: 130,200 / (9300-1600)= 17 or 85% of the alliance.
    4) Based on point 3, if all members gain 4 Nebula covers, they lose out on the last two personal progression rewards.
    Formula: 39,600 - (1600x4) = 33,200.

    Suggestions:
    1) remove 5* essential from hard mode but increase the level from the range of 180-300 to the range of 230 to 350.

    2) Add in LT as a final reward for Deadly node and increase the level range from 300-450 to 350 to 500.

    Questions:
    1) Should the points for parent nodes be increased to make up for the point losses of players who don't have 5* essential and yet choose to play hard mode so that they can get 4 Nebula cover and also the last personal progression reward?

    2) What % of the alliance should be required for full clear in order to work on a common goal? It's 70% currently. 

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