Update to Versus Tournament Progression Rewards (11/15/17)

sh81 said:

MMR, what a beast huh?

I played through my health packs and got to 670.  I dont need the 4* so I  left it to see what my float point is.  Ive stopped getting hit at 296.

That climb to 670 was probably 20 matches.  I simply could not queue anything over 40 points (literally 2 matches of more than that) and ended up taking a few matches at low 30s because I ran out of 38s as well.

I started the sub sometime after it started, and so there should in theory have been points available.  There just wasnt.

This is why we stress strictly climbing on matches worth 40 or more. A match being worth 38 points or less means that the person has less points than you, or about the same. If all you're doing is strictly hitting these people, you're leaving yourself open to ridiculous amounts of retaliation because you're still climbing and making yourself worth much more to them to hit you back than it was for you to hit them. The more someone is worth when you hit them, the greater the gap in your points, and thus the less attractive it will be for them to hit you back. This is how people are able to climb to 700-800 in one go, only taking 1-2 hits at the most, but a lot of times, not hits at all. 

So once again we arrive at this impasse of you claiming that finding 40+ pt matches is just impossible. You have enough 4-star champs where you should always have at least 1-2 boosted champs, so your MMR should put you in a place where you are q'ing up other boosted 4-star teams. These are the people that score 900-1200 in PVP on a basis, so I'm seriously struggling to conceive how you just can't seem to q not one of them. I don't know if it's the slice you play in, or how much time is left when you're climbing or what, but something is awry in your process of finding q's to climb on. Does anyone in your alliance climb to 900 on a regular basis? 

BoyWonder1914 said:

sh81 said:

MMR, what a beast huh?

I played through my health packs and got to 670.  I dont need the 4* so I  left it to see what my float point is.  Ive stopped getting hit at 296.

That climb to 670 was probably 20 matches.  I simply could not queue anything over 40 points (literally 2 matches of more than that) and ended up taking a few matches at low 30s because I ran out of 38s as well.

I started the sub sometime after it started, and so there should in theory have been points available.  There just wasnt.

This is why we stress strictly climbing on matches worth 40 or more. A match being worth 38 points or less means that the person has less points than you, or about the same. If all you're doing is strictly hitting these people, you're leaving yourself open to ridiculous amounts of retaliation because you're still climbing and making yourself worth much more to them to hit you back than it was for you to hit them. The more someone is worth when you hit them, the greater the gap in your points, and thus the less attractive it will be for them to hit you back. This is how people are able to climb to 700-800 in one go, only taking 1-2 hits at the most, but a lot of times, not hits at all. 

So once again we arrive at this impasse of you claiming that finding 40+ pt matches is just impossible. You have enough 4-star champs where you should always have at least 1-2 boosted champs, so your MMR should put you in a place where you are q'ing up other boosted 4-star teams. These are the people that score 900-1200 in PVP on a basis, so I'm seriously struggling to conceive how you just can't seem to q not one of them. I don't know if it's the slice you play in, or how much time is left when you're climbing or what, but something is awry in your process of finding q's to climb on. Does anyone in your alliance climb to 900 on a regular basis? 

Obviously I'm not the guy you were talking to (and as noted he rage quit so not getting an answer from him), but I can speak to this from my experience.  Typically when i get close to 900 I'm in the top 20-50 somewhere.  So there are only 20-50 players above me at all.  Half or more of those are 5* people out of my MMR and probably 75% of those are shielded.  I've done 50-70 skips before and not seen a single 40+ team (and got hit a bunch doing those skips...)  In points based system this pretty much where I end up every stupid time.  So I get to pound my head against a brick wall of >40 point wins trying to out treadmill the losses.  And/or tiny shield hops.  Either method is not fun for me.  

After a season of win based I can't go back.  I'd rather pass on the rewards then put myself through that torture for another season or more....

Obviously I'm not the guy you were talking to (and as noted he rage quit so not getting an answer from him)

More 'sad resignation' than 'rage quit', to be honest. Im quite calm. It wasnt a firey tempest. It was just a realisation I have no will to do it any more.

Starfury said:

broll said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

sh81 said:

MMR, what a beast huh?

I played through my health packs and got to 670.  I dont need the 4* so I  left it to see what my float point is.  Ive stopped getting hit at 296.

That climb to 670 was probably 20 matches.  I simply could not queue anything over 40 points (literally 2 matches of more than that) and ended up taking a few matches at low 30s because I ran out of 38s as well.

I started the sub sometime after it started, and so there should in theory have been points available.  There just wasnt.

This is why we stress strictly climbing on matches worth 40 or more. A match being worth 38 points or less means that the person has less points than you, or about the same. If all you're doing is strictly hitting these people, you're leaving yourself open to ridiculous amounts of retaliation because you're still climbing and making yourself worth much more to them to hit you back than it was for you to hit them. The more someone is worth when you hit them, the greater the gap in your points, and thus the less attractive it will be for them to hit you back. This is how people are able to climb to 700-800 in one go, only taking 1-2 hits at the most, but a lot of times, not hits at all. 

So once again we arrive at this impasse of you claiming that finding 40+ pt matches is just impossible. You have enough 4-star champs where you should always have at least 1-2 boosted champs, so your MMR should put you in a place where you are q'ing up other boosted 4-star teams. These are the people that score 900-1200 in PVP on a basis, so I'm seriously struggling to conceive how you just can't seem to q not one of them. I don't know if it's the slice you play in, or how much time is left when you're climbing or what, but something is awry in your process of finding q's to climb on. Does anyone in your alliance climb to 900 on a regular basis? 

Obviously I'm not the guy you were talking to (and as noted he rage quit so not getting an answer from him), but I can speak to this from my experience.  Typically when i get close to 900 I'm in the top 20-50 somewhere.  So there are only 20-50 players above me at all.  Half or more of those are 5* people out of my MMR and probably 75% of those are shielded.  I've done 50-70 skips before and not seen a single 40+ team (and got hit a bunch doing those skips...)  In points based system this pretty much where I end up every stupid time.  So I get to pound my head against a brick wall of >40 point wins trying to out treadmill the losses.  And/or tiny shield hops.  Either method is not fun for me.  

After a season of win based I can't go back.  I'd rather pass on the rewards then put myself through that torture for another season or more....

You're not limited to fighting people in your bracket (or SCL for that matter).

The only limiting factor to who you can queue is time slice, MMR and whether someone is shielded or not.

Good call.  Still doesn't explain why 40+ teams are so hard to get.  Either way hopefully there's a compromise system next season that allows for the best of both worlds.

broll said:

sh81 said:

Obviously I'm not the guy you were talking to (and as noted he rage quit so not getting an answer from him)

More 'sad resignation' than 'rage quit', to be honest. Im quite calm. It wasnt a firey tempest. It was just a realisation I have no will to do it any more.

Uninstalling is sad resignation.  Pouring gasoline over your hard earned roster and lighting a match is a rage quit.  I wasn't talking about your actual temperament, but the fact that you pulled the rip cord so hard there's no way you're coming back.

I dont think thats rage quit.  Rage indicates far more passion than Im feeling.

I pulled the cord that hard to make sure I couldnt come back, because I know there is such a habit around this game it would be very easy to get sucked back in.  I dont want that.

Its like quitting smoking.  I tried cutting back many times, and failed.  It wasnt until I quit cold turkey that it stuck.

broll said:

 I've done 50-70 skips before and not seen a single 40+ team (and got hit a bunch doing those skips...)  In points based system this pretty much where I end up every stupid time.  So I get to pound my head against a brick wall of >40 point wins trying to out treadmill the losses.  And/or tiny shield hops.  Either method is not fun for me.  

After a season of win based I can't go back.  I'd rather pass on the rewards then put myself through that torture for another season or more....

This still happens to the best of us, and honestly this didn't change for me when they went to wins-based. Since I was still trying to score a specific number of points for placement purposes, there would inevitably be a point I got to where I would only see the same 3-6 people, for the same amount of points that aren't worth it. Or "q hell", as it's called. This was broken before they switched to wins-based, and still is. As Starfury pointed out, you're in the MMR range of everyone in that slice, not just your bracket, but as you score more points it's still possible for you to be the highest-point unshielded target in that slice. So you can't find anyone, but all kinds of people are lining you up for dinner. 

That was a really big benefit I gave up when I decided not to go back to a shield check room, because you would know precisely when a high-point target would be hopping, and it would save you the iso of skipping god knows how many times. I worked around this by just giving it time in between checking for targets. Say I just threw up a 3-hour shield, I'll check for targets an hour later.  Or 2 hours later, or 15 minutes before I hop again, etc. But this contributes more to the feeling of playing on a strict schedule, or spending copious amounts of HP for shielding, so I get it. Problem is, shield-hopping makes them money, so they're hard-pressed to implement a system long-term that allows you to avoid it entirely if you wish. 

Bryan Lambert said:

Tiggida said:

There are dead spots in the day where not many people are playing and points are hard to find. Wait an hour or so and higher point targets will be there again. If you skip a bunch and are only seeing a loop of low point targets, it's either time to shield and wait to try to q up some targets, or float and accept that you'll lose pts because chances are your the highest point target that is out. 

This, by the way, is a perfect example of a huge flaw in PvP that win-base at least smoothed over. The wild inconsistency bewteen player experiences. Sorry, you’re playing PvP in the wrong slice, your experience sucks. Sorry, you’re playing PvP in the wrong hour, your experience sucks.

At least with win-based, everyone had the same mildly sucky experience. You needed to beat 40 teams. There were always teams to beat, from the moment the event opened, no matter what slice you were in, no matter what time of day you happened to be able to play. 

If nobody worth pts is unshielded or playing what can they do? Create fake AI targets worth points? That is the only solution. It's a huge flaw in mmr, and really has nothing to do with win based vs point based. My experience as a 5* player in both systems in terms of who I could q and when was virtually identical under both systems. The challenge the devs have is finding a balance in mmr where they don't open it up too much to the point where people can hit big points that are way below their weight class. Opening it up too much will make it even worse for the people who are already having trouble and getting smacked back down before they hit 900. Finding the balance in mmr has been the problem with pvp as long as I can remember IMO. 

Tiggida said:

Bryan Lambert said:

Tiggida said:

There are dead spots in the day where not many people are playing and points are hard to find. Wait an hour or so and higher point targets will be there again. If you skip a bunch and are only seeing a loop of low point targets, it's either time to shield and wait to try to q up some targets, or float and accept that you'll lose pts because chances are your the highest point target that is out. 

This, by the way, is a perfect example of a huge flaw in PvP that win-base at least smoothed over. The wild inconsistency bewteen player experiences. Sorry, you’re playing PvP in the wrong slice, your experience sucks. Sorry, you’re playing PvP in the wrong hour, your experience sucks.

At least with win-based, everyone had the same mildly sucky experience. You needed to beat 40 teams. There were always teams to beat, from the moment the event opened, no matter what slice you were in, no matter what time of day you happened to be able to play. 

If nobody worth pts is unshielded or playing what can they do? Create fake AI targets worth points? That is the only solution. It's a huge flaw in mmr, and really has nothing to do with win based vs point based. My experience as a 5* player in both systems in terms of who I could q and when was virtually identical under both systems. The challenge the devs have is finding a balance in mmr where they don't open it up too much to the point where people can hit big points that are way below their weight class. Opening it up too much will make it even worse for the people who are already having trouble and getting smacked back down before they hit 900. Finding the balance in mmr has been the problem with pvp as long as I can remember IMO. 

It has something to do with win-based vs. points-based because how many points your opponent is worth doesn’t matter in win-based progression. That’s why I sad “smooths over” and not “solves”. 40 10 point wins and 40 60 point wins count the same, so it doesn’t matter who you queue up as long as you can beat them.

Wonderful vaulting kills me for 3 months but enjoyable pvp was removed in a week. Thanks.

I’m looking forward to the next iteration of win-based PVP.