Update to Versus Tournament Progression Rewards (11/15/17)

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  • Thinktwice
    Thinktwice Posts: 6 Just Dropped In
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    shardwick said:
    Ok, so let me get this straight, you completely destroyed pve with the 5* node which only encouraged 5* players to flood CL7 which killed my enjoyment of pve. But then you went with a win based pvp system that overall didn't really impact my usual amount of wins, maybe I played a little more, but in exchange I got a stress free game and more rewards. So I wasn't enjoying pve anymore but I actually was enjoying pvp a lot more so at least I had that. And now the pvp changes are rolled back so not only will pve suck to play for me but pvp will too? Umm, yay?
    I am completely agree with your opinion, I also played a lot more, the win based system was a huge leap forward motivating me to purchase a vip membership and which I did.. But now the motivation is all gone. Yay?
  • shartattack
    shartattack Posts: 370 Mover and Shaker
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    NotBAMF said:
    Nice to see the Punisher event has been open for 20 minutes and I have already lost 70 points of progress. 
    You were frontrunning in an event in which you don't even have any boosted 4s.  You were a big juicy steak in a sea of gambattery/grockamora teams.  What did you think would happen?  people would ignore you because you are such a nice guy?
  • jamesh
    jamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
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    8rock_MPQ said:
    I propose that at the very least players are afforded protection while they are battling so they don’t win a battle to score 30 points only to learn that while in that battle they were attacked twice and lost 35. I play other games that use this system and it works great.
    They're not going to do that because you can stretch a match out for hours if you want.  This would essentially give unlimited free shields of arbitrary duration.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    I think researchers should use this thread to make advancements in understanding Stockholm syndrome . 
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Super Excited to start this season!!  Also, I love how because some people didn't like the Win based system they are "moneybags".  That isn't it at all.  I know some didn't like the number of WINS, but the fact was and STILL is about removing the CPs from progression.  This cannot be stressed enough.  If you hit 1200 all the time and then that is gone and you have no way to hit top 10, you just lost a ton of progression.  This point cannot be stressed enough. 
  • PenniesForEveryone
    PenniesForEveryone Posts: 294 Mover and Shaker
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    shardwick said:
    BoyWonder1914 said:
    shardwick said:

    Oh if I had a dollar for every comment that I saw about 5* players bragging about going seal clubbing or begging and screaming for the MMR to be opened up so that they could attack 4* players and below. Also, you really shouldn't trash others for wanting to voice their opinion and being on a soapbox as you do the exact same thing. Just sayin'. 
    Would love to hear your thoughts on the matter if you know anything about what the MMR is like at the 5-star level, or what it was like before they finally decided to start boosting 5-star characters. Just sayin'. 
    Oh, you mean the MMR where 5* players always bragged about doing multitaps before win based? It's interesting how quickly 5* players can change their narrative though. One moment it's nothing but an endless sea of 5* players that's a total slog and the next it's seals for days and days where 5*s threaten 4s that they will now hit them countless times. If your MMR was soooooo bad then you wouldn't really ever see 4*s or lower much less have an opportunity to hit them multiple times.
    It's clear that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 5* MMR is broken. For the first half of the event all you can queue is other 5* teams. Once you cross some unknown point threshold (typically around 1000 points or so, sometimes more sometimes less) the MMR opens up and you are able to find other targets.....that are much lower and rarely worth more than 20 points - if that. If you continue to climb you eventually open up completely and you can find 2* teams worth like 2 points each that you can club for days. If a 4* team happens to climb over that same 1000 point threshold they will pop up on the 5* radar and can be hit multiple times on a hop, but not until then. Note that this only applies to the point-based system. Under the win-based system MMR almost never opened up because hardly anyone was shielding.
  • smoq84
    smoq84 Posts: 421 Mover and Shaker
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    Good news! With new system I didn't get a single 3* cover (not to mention 4*'s) during the whole season. That change totally stopped progression for me. Now I can get them again.

    However I was already decided to quit playing pvp, now I have to play it again :D
  • firethorne
    firethorne Posts: 1,505 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2017
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    *Double post, sorry.*  
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    you can say that again
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2017
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    Phaserhawk said:
    Back to grinding against max 5* rosters hoping I don’t get hit. As grindy as 40 wine was, you were always moving forward. It’s too bad D3 doesn’t just realize can have both. Why not 35 wins or 900 points? You the best of Casual still progress. Hardcore play normal.
    Always moving forward towards what?  If all you cared about in pvp was the cp, then constantly moving a counter up wasn't much comfort.

    I am genuinely sorry for those players that feel as if this change prevents them from getting a much-wanted 4* cover.  But i bet a lot of those players (espdcually the ones with sime decent 4* champs) actually could get the 4* cover if they learned a bit more about the mechanics of pvp (and i am willing to put that assertion to the test.  Anyone can PM me for pvp info if they feel screwed by this reversion.)
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Vhailorx said:
    Always moving forward towards what?  If all you cared about in pvp was the cp, then constantly moving a counter up wasn't much comfort.

    I am genuinely sorry for those players that feel as if this change prevents them from getting a much-wanted 4* cover.  But i bet a lot of those players (espdcually the ones with sime decent 4* champs) actually could get the 4* cover if they learned a bit more about the mechanics of pvp (and i am willing to put that assertion to the test.  Anyone can PM me for pvp info if they feel screwed by this reversion.)
    This is the thing I hate about PvP under the reinstated system. It has been put on a pedestal by a portion of players that have advanced so far in the game that they have nothing else to do within the game.

    So for many, that have learned ever nuance about PvP, it's either learn it and love it or tough buggies. I get they love the system the way it is cause they've gone to great lengths to game it, but that doesn't mean that every one needs to learn it too in order to enjoy that particular aspect of the game.

    Honestly, I don't blame you guys. That's your playing ground. Like PVe was the playing ground for the smaller guys, but that got all screwed when it became the playground field for them too.

    Really, we just need a third mode of play...like what many have been suggesting for a long time, opening up the prologue.
  • Heartbreaksoup
    Heartbreaksoup Posts: 352 Mover and Shaker
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    smkspy said:

    Really, we just need a third mode of play...like what many have been suggesting for a long time, opening up the prologue.

    I'm interested in this idea, but curious how you would implement it.  The prologue made sense when players were novices with small rosters of 1* and 2* characters.  Once you've moved past that, is there a need for that kind of arena to test your characters and learn tactics?

    I think I would like a third mode of play, but I'm not sure what it should look like.
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2017
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    Heartbreaksoup said:
    smkspy said:

    Really, we just need a third mode of play...like what many have been suggesting for a long time, opening up the prologue.

    I'm interested in this idea, but curious how you would implement it.  The prologue made sense when players were novices with small rosters of 1* and 2* characters.  Once you've moved past that, is there a need for that kind of arena to test your characters and learn tactics?

    I think I would like a third mode of play, but I'm not sure what it should look like.
    I would simply open up the prologue to scl levels. Maybe a 1000 HP to reenter it every time you complete an scl. 

    Keep the rewards and levels appropriate to each scl. 

    Other than that, I would maybe do a season long prologue where rewards are based on scl. With heroics gone, that's a lot of play time that can be dedicated towards something else besides pve and pvp.

    Basically, the fact that they don't use a mode already code in the game and easily adaptable to continuos play astounds me.

    PvP isn't the end all aspect of the game, it never should been. Let's disregard all levels for the prologue for a minute and apply old school pve scaling to it. That would a continuous test of how well your roster has developed over the years. That would be exactly what 5 stars players would need without the burdens of having to worry about placement because of events.

    Sorry for grammatical errors, having a drinking day while house cleaning lol.
  • Doc L
    Doc L Posts: 279 Mover and Shaker
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    Whilst I am both sad that the new PvP went in someways, helping newer players, and happy the old PvP is back, as it helps me a lot as a 5* player, two further things are worse about this.

    First, that D3/the Devs went straight back to the old system, rather than modify the new system, and there have been many, many good suggestions to make all players happy. They could have literally picked any of the suggestions out of a hat without considering the ramifications, it would have been a step forwards.

    Second, the way players/people on the forum are just blaming each other constantly for the changes. At the end of the day, this is nothing to do with one player or another. The % of people on the forum complaining or not, do not make a difference if the developers want to keep things as they are. They are tough enough - See the True Healing change, the X-Force nerf, man even the OML nerf! They will not bend if they don’t want to, ever.

    The changes relate to either the ‘bottom line’, or possibly even, too many players were now getting rewards. Working together, as a forum, we can discuss the game and maybe even move towards change, but fighting always goes nowhere. 
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
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    Multiple crowds and play styles have a dog in this fight, and no one side's opinion is any more valid than the other. When it comes down to it, D3 will choose the side that makes them more money. Not that they don't make decisions independent of this like character reworks and moving xp away from opening tokens, but something that provides a reliable revenue stream to them will always be valued heavily. You can't possibly think that tens of thousands of people no longer caring about shielding all of a sudden, and thus spending less, wouldn't be a red flag for them. They dress it up as listening to player concerns, but how many things have we complained about that don't make them any money have they jumped on as quickly as this? 
    --------------------------------------------
    You have the PVP purists, who suffered the same difficulty as everyone else that complains about getting hit down and losing points, but didn't complain and instead learned what they could until their roster was ready to compete at the highest level of the game. They kept champing their 4-star characters, to the point where they could reliably have 1-3 characters boosted most weeks. They enjoy the challenge and strategy involved in scoring as high as you can, as opposed to the mindless grinding of PVE. The absolute last thing they would want is for PVP to become PVE 2.0. Their MMR pits them against the best of the best, even at low point levels, and don't want to be forced to fight that 30+ times for a 4-star cover. One 4-star cover isn't worth so much additional stress. Losing points isn't a thrill for them either, but they accept that it happens sometimes when you can't be quick enough at high point levels. They use it as a learning experience to be quicker, try different characters that may deter hits, and they become better strategists as a result of it.

    Opposing them are the casual players, who PRECISELY want this game mode to be PVE 2.0, where everything is "easy" as long as you are willing to crank out X number of wins. They want to be able to get all the progression rewards without losses taking that progression away from them, and don't want to bother with the nuances of shield-hopping. They equate shielding with playing the game on a schedule, and thus feel like not having to worry about losing points grants more flexibility to their schedule. 

    You have the placement specialists, who got accustomed to t50 placement & above being a by-product of progression achievement. The people who could score 900+ regularly, could reliably expect to make t25 and above for the most part, sometimes more depending on the slice. The wins-based system means that they would have to get their 40 wins first if they want progression, and then ALSO have to do additional work for their desired placement. To be fair, there are plenty of placement specialists who joined early as well, let themselves float until a certain amount of hours left, and then climb up on retals on the way to getting the rewards at 800+. Both were viable strategies, but allowing yourself to float and get hit adds additional time to your overall commitment to the event. The people that got really good at it could join at almost any time, climb to 700-800+, and then make 900 with a 2 shield-hops at the most. Represents a small portion of the player base overall, but opinions of the people who play the game at this high of a level are no less valid simply because there are less of them. 

    Opposing them are the people that don't care about placement at all, and the only thing that matters to them is their 40. Since hits don't take away their progression, they let themselves get hit by whoever. Whether they realize it or not, this allows them to keep their point values low and hang around with the easier q's. So the vast majority of their 40 comes against matches that are way below their actual MMR, and they don't feel it's a "slog". They may also play PVE not caring about placement, so this allows them more flexibility in getting their 40 whenever. 
    ---------------------------------------------------

    The second groups in each case share quite a lot of the same people, but there can be quite a lot of variety in the first groups. Not everyone who tries for the higher placement awards enjoy the mode for the challenge, some people want the 3 3-star covers because they have a 3-star farm pumping out some pretty nice rewards for them. Not everyone who loves PVP for the challenge and strategy involved are necessarily going for t5 or t10. The one thing that I feel is abundantly clear, is that a system where people don't have to worry about losing their progression towards a goal is mutually beneficial. While the purists might not mind getting hit as much and accept it, doesn't mean that they wouldn't find it nice if they didn't have to worry about it. After all the work that goes into the initial climb, it can all be for naught if the shield-hopping phase doesn't go well for you. At the same time, while the removal of CP doesn't affect those who never went for it before, I'd be hard-pressed to believe that they would have a problem with it being on the progression ladder. D3 will certainly look for a compromise, but certainly not one that cuts them off from revenue. 

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