Answers To The 8 Questions About Vaulting (5/2/17)

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  • mega ghostmega ghost Posts: 1,121 Chairperson of the Boards
    One thing is for certain, if we're stuck with this horrible vaulting system they need to drastically update champion rewards. 500 ISO and the likes is no longer suitable in exchange for a character we now no longer have a direct line to. 
  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    One thing is for certain, if we're stuck with this horrible vaulting system they need to drastically update champion rewards. 500 ISO and the likes is no longer suitable in exchange for a character we now no longer have a direct line to. 


    It depends who this change is targeting... 

    We've established it screws the casual player with nearly perfectly poor cover distribution (9-12 covers per 4* on average before they're retired) if they cant do better than 1 4* pull every other day...

    If you're talking about the "hardcore" player that generates in upwards of 5-6 pulls a day its still working perfectly in concert with the champion system.

    The middle ground wont see later level 4* champion rewards with the vaulting system.


    So you're either:

    - Not pulling enough for this to actually help with 4*s before they retired (around 1 4* pull every other day)

    - Pulling enough 4*s that youre covering them before they leave, but not going to get to later champion levels (around .5 to 4  4*s pulled per day)

    - Or "hardcore" and hitting 370 before they retire


    So the need for them to update the champion system really depends on who their target is for champion benefits.

  • BrigbyBrigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
    @Daredevil217

    Thanks for the feedback! That hoarding thread was already one that I had passed along to the developers in an earlier week's report, prior to sending the most recent report on vaulting, so they should already be aware of this player behavior.  
  • pheregaspheregas Posts: 1,594 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
    They wouldn't need to hoard if the devs would significantly increase iso flow.
    I've said it before.  I'll say it again.  Hoarding would not need to happen at all if cover expiration timers were removed.
  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    pheregas said:
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
    They wouldn't need to hoard if the devs would significantly increase iso flow.
    I've said it before.  I'll say it again.  Hoarding would not need to happen at all if cover expiration timers were removed.


    Or token expiration was introduced :(  Luckily I think that would be harder to do, especially with CP...


    However, cover timers wouldn't impact most of the big hoards one way or the other...  Those hoards are amassed and pulled based around the 5*s in the latest legend tokens...

  • SkrofaSkrofa Posts: 388 Mover and Shaker
    pheregas said:
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
    They wouldn't need to hoard if the devs would significantly increase iso flow.
    I've said it before.  I'll say it again.  Hoarding would not need to happen at all if cover expiration timers were removed.



    However, cover timers wouldn't impact most of the big hoards one way or the other...  Those hoards are amassed and pulled based around the 5*s in the latest legend tokens...

    Not entirely true.
    I hoard not to get the latest 5*s. They are not even one of my goals in the game.

    I hoard because after champing a bunch of the select 12 in the span of a few weeks, I am now down to 200k iso. Which means that if I pull and pull and pull, I won't have the iso to champ anyone else and I might have a lot of covers wasting away on the vine.

    With hoarding, I can pull until I can champ one or two (since I will also have the necessary ISO ) and then stop and start over
  • pheregaspheregas Posts: 1,594 Chairperson of the Boards
    pheregas said:
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
    They wouldn't need to hoard if the devs would significantly increase iso flow.
    I've said it before.  I'll say it again.  Hoarding would not need to happen at all if cover expiration timers were removed.


    Or token expiration was introduced :(  Luckily I think that would be harder to do, especially with CP...


    However, cover timers wouldn't impact most of the big hoards one way or the other...  Those hoards are amassed and pulled based around the 5*s in the latest legend tokens...

    True.  Though I never hoarded until the vaulting system was introduced.  There was literally no reason to with as many champed 4s as I had/have.  When Thanos leaves Latest, I'll just switch over to classics again.  My Panther is nowhere near close enough for use and I just don't care about Star Lord or Hawkeye (both at 2 covers or less).

    Now that I've gotten back to 75% of the token 4s champed, I'll probably just keep pulling.  I'm just filling in my dupe champed 3s now, then will finish off Coulson and HoboFist.  

    My poor max covered Natasha just keeps waiting patiently though... Someday...  
  • BoyWonder1914BoyWonder1914 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    @Brigby

    It's probably been a few months now, but I remember a while back you said that you were now playing this game as well. How has your own experience been going? Are you still currently in the 2-3* tier? 
  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    Skrofa said:
    pheregas said:
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
    They wouldn't need to hoard if the devs would significantly increase iso flow.
    I've said it before.  I'll say it again.  Hoarding would not need to happen at all if cover expiration timers were removed.



    However, cover timers wouldn't impact most of the big hoards one way or the other...  Those hoards are amassed and pulled based around the 5*s in the latest legend tokens...

    Not entirely true.
    I hoard not to get the latest 5*s. They are not even one of my goals in the game.

    I hoard because after champing a bunch of the select 12 in the span of a few weeks, I am now down to 200k iso. Which means that if I pull and pull and pull, I won't have the iso to champ anyone else and I might have a lot of covers wasting away on the vine.

    With hoarding, I can pull until I can champ one or two (since I will also have the necessary ISO ) and then stop and start over


    I was referring to most of the big hoards...  IMO there are only four reasons that all hoarding boils down to:

    - Early on hoarding for lack of roster space - no point in pulling if you could get a new character you cant roster

    - Early on hoarding to not ruin scaling - a transitioning 1-2* player with a lucky vault pull of a legendary token is sure to ruin their experience if they pull while still working in 1*s and some 2*s

    - Hoarding due to iso limitations:  Next cover may require championing to use which requires ISO not on hand

    - Hoarding to most efficiently use CP and LT for the 5* transition (waiting until you have enough pulls to likely cover one or more heroes, or waiting for a particularly undesirable hero to rotate out of LL.


    Two reasons are mostly "early game" issues for new players (the HC hole is far more shallow and quickly filled than the ISO hole)

    That leaves two remaining reasons, one happens to not be impacted at all by any cover expiration length, and by its very nature demanding of large hoards.

  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Skrofa said:
    pheregas said:
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
    They wouldn't need to hoard if the devs would significantly increase iso flow.
    I've said it before.  I'll say it again.  Hoarding would not need to happen at all if cover expiration timers were removed.



    However, cover timers wouldn't impact most of the big hoards one way or the other...  Those hoards are amassed and pulled based around the 5*s in the latest legend tokens...

    Not entirely true.
    I hoard not to get the latest 5*s. They are not even one of my goals in the game.

    I hoard because after champing a bunch of the select 12 in the span of a few weeks, I am now down to 200k iso. Which means that if I pull and pull and pull, I won't have the iso to champ anyone else and I might have a lot of covers wasting away on the vine.

    With hoarding, I can pull until I can champ one or two (since I will also have the necessary ISO ) and then stop and start over
    If you have 200k ISO that means that if you pulled a 4* that needed champed to avoid wasting a cover that you would need just 150k ISO in 2 weeks to champ him.  Surely you can manage that?
  • MissChinchMissChinch Age Unconfirmed Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    Skrofa said:
    pheregas said:
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
    They wouldn't need to hoard if the devs would significantly increase iso flow.
    I've said it before.  I'll say it again.  Hoarding would not need to happen at all if cover expiration timers were removed.



    However, cover timers wouldn't impact most of the big hoards one way or the other...  Those hoards are amassed and pulled based around the 5*s in the latest legend tokens...

    Not entirely true.
    I hoard not to get the latest 5*s. They are not even one of my goals in the game.

    I hoard because after champing a bunch of the select 12 in the span of a few weeks, I am now down to 200k iso. Which means that if I pull and pull and pull, I won't have the iso to champ anyone else and I might have a lot of covers wasting away on the vine.

    With hoarding, I can pull until I can champ one or two (since I will also have the necessary ISO ) and then stop and start over
    If you have 200k ISO that means that if you pulled a 4* that needed champed to avoid wasting a cover that you would need just 150k ISO in 2 weeks to champ him.  Surely you can manage that?

    Since the rate of him championing is whats defining this it really makes no difference if he pulls two weeks early and is constantly playing catchup with ISO to not waste covers that are actively expiring, or waiting till he has the ISO in the bank and only pulling when he can immediately use the covers.

    The pros for waiting include more flexibility in how you spend your CP (you can buy a cover for 120 if you want) and not having the sense of needing to constantly race against the clock that is the expiring cover timer.  Its just a matter of where you want to place this sliding window of pulling and no matter how you do it its ultimately throttled by the rate he earns ISO anyway.

  • SkrofaSkrofa Posts: 388 Mover and Shaker
    Skrofa said:
    pheregas said:
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
    They wouldn't need to hoard if the devs would significantly increase iso flow.
    I've said it before.  I'll say it again.  Hoarding would not need to happen at all if cover expiration timers were removed.



    However, cover timers wouldn't impact most of the big hoards one way or the other...  Those hoards are amassed and pulled based around the 5*s in the latest legend tokens...

    Not entirely true.
    I hoard not to get the latest 5*s. They are not even one of my goals in the game.

    I hoard because after champing a bunch of the select 12 in the span of a few weeks, I am now down to 200k iso. Which means that if I pull and pull and pull, I won't have the iso to champ anyone else and I might have a lot of covers wasting away on the vine.

    With hoarding, I can pull until I can champ one or two (since I will also have the necessary ISO ) and then stop and start over
    If you have 200k ISO that means that if you pulled a 4* that needed champed to avoid wasting a cover that you would need just 150k ISO in 2 weeks to champ him.  Surely you can manage that?
    MissChinch pretty much covered me, but I also want to add something.

    As I understand it you are an advocate of get it-spend it. Sure, if I spend my 20 cp or LT right away I might pull the covers needed for me to champ that ONE character. What about the rest? What if I pull today that last 13th for one and and tomorrow the 13th cover for another character? Can I make 500k iso in two weeks? 

    Nah...

    There is so little I can control in this game that I like to have at least the illusion of control with hoarding
  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    Skrofa said:
    Skrofa said:
    pheregas said:
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Just wanted to give a quick update. I completed my analysis and sent over a report to the developers last night, so rest assured that the ball is still rolling and we're still discussing this topic for sure. 

    If I hear of any information I can communicate, I'll be sure to update everyone with that news.
    Hey @Brigby,

    I want to once again thank you for the work you do. I know the report has been sent on, but I think this data here is important (to include in a sticky note or just bring up in the next devs meeting):

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/64360/how-has-hoarding-changed-for-you-since-vaulting/p1

    Of people who have felt the need to change their hoarding habits 64% report hoarding MORE while only 5% report hoarding less. I think that is pretty significant and overall makes the game less fun.  I like that they recognize the embargo on champ rewards as problematic and am hoping they see this for the problem it is as well (which did not seem to be the case based on their response to my question in the OP)
    They wouldn't need to hoard if the devs would significantly increase iso flow.
    I've said it before.  I'll say it again.  Hoarding would not need to happen at all if cover expiration timers were removed.



    However, cover timers wouldn't impact most of the big hoards one way or the other...  Those hoards are amassed and pulled based around the 5*s in the latest legend tokens...

    Not entirely true.
    I hoard not to get the latest 5*s. They are not even one of my goals in the game.

    I hoard because after champing a bunch of the select 12 in the span of a few weeks, I am now down to 200k iso. Which means that if I pull and pull and pull, I won't have the iso to champ anyone else and I might have a lot of covers wasting away on the vine.

    With hoarding, I can pull until I can champ one or two (since I will also have the necessary ISO ) and then stop and start over
    If you have 200k ISO that means that if you pulled a 4* that needed champed to avoid wasting a cover that you would need just 150k ISO in 2 weeks to champ him.  Surely you can manage that?
    MissChinch pretty much covered me, but I also want to add something.

    As I understand it you are an advocate of get it-spend it. Sure, if I spend my 20 cp or LT right away I might pull the covers needed for me to champ that ONE character. What about the rest? What if I pull today that last 13th for one and and tomorrow the 13th cover for another character? Can I make 500k iso in two weeks? 

    Nah...

    There is so little I can control in this game that I like to have at least the illusion of control with hoarding
    No, you don't need a drop of ISO until you pull the FOURTEENTH cover, and then you need 350k in 2 weeks.  So you can pull until you have 13 of everyone then as soon as you hit 14 you stop and save up your ISO.  In your case, no saving is even necessary as your ISO on hand + daily ISO rate x 14 days is > 350k.  At this point you would likely need to stop though as that number is likely not > 700k and pulling a 14th to a second 4* would likely result in waste.  I do this all the time.  The number of covers I have on the vine is the lowest it has been in months at 27 - most of them 2*s for my farm.  I only need 74k to level and champ a 2* which I can get in about 2 days.  So if I look through my rewards and I have three 2s and a couple 3s, all spaced out by 2-3 days then I can continue pulling knowing that I'll make the ISO needed to champ them in time.  In the meantime I keep opening tokens, adding champ levels, flipping 2*s and eventually 3*s, gaining XP, and generating ISO at a faster rate because I'm not constraining myself to the need to have the ISO to champ before I open.

    MissChinch is right in that the total rewards will be the same whether you open now or later and for me it probably doesn't matter one way or the other, but for guys that need those 4*s to progress and become more competitive it could really make a big difference having them sooner.  You also run the risk of having a good 4 that you want champ levels on leaving the pool while you are hoarding for someone else.

    It's like I mentioned in that poll on hoarding, this isn't anything new created by vaulting.  In the past most of us just opened and accepted some degree of waste because champing everyone to avoid any waste was impractical.  But now that champing "everyone" is just champing the 12 newest it's far more practical and so people have actually changed their roster strategy to hoard more until they can get all 12 champed and then open everything with no waste.
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