Milk Jugz said: GrumpySmurf1002 said: Vhailorx said:Focusing on the particular merits or flaws with any group of current 12 is a mistake. By definition the group will always be in flux. The best way to evaluate this concern is to ask "At any given time, can a player be competitive with a random selection of 8-12 out of all 4*s in the game?" (And again, it's really important to define "competitive." For this post I will use the term to mean able to grind 6/6 on all available PVE nodes and hit 900 in PVP. That's the level of play that will allow anyone to get 4* progression rewards in CL 7+.). I would say yes in PVE and possibly in PVP. In pve having some random 4*s is likely good enough to play all available nodes (it will be impossible to play all essential nodes with just 12, but that is an unavoidable problem for everyone but dedicated vets with every character rostered). Some weeks will boost the right characters and will be easy. Other weeks will with offer no boosted 4*s and things will be more challenging, but should still be possible. On the PVP side of things, 900 is still doable with im40 + a good boosted 4*. But it's very hard to get 900 with IM40 + an unboosted champ (even peggy or Ice). Two characters with less than 15k health in high score pvp means lots of attacks coming in very fast. So when a player has a single, decent 4* boosted they can probably hit 900 without too much trouble. But if a player only has 8-12 4*s champed, then weeks without any boosted 4*s will be very rough in high score PVP. Fair enough, but with Medusa/Carol in the tokens until likely late August if not late September, we're looking at a lengthy amount of time where the current set has multiple viable groups that can be obtained quickly.PvP is always going to be the strain, simply because 5*s are rampant enough now that anything short of a boosted 4* team is going to get creamed. At least in this current set, players (in theory) should be able to ramp up faster and get to a point where they have the options to try for 900. With 50 characters and counting, that transition was (if not already is) going to be overwhelming without doing something to streamline it.The people that got caught mid-transition are obviously the ones that lost the most in the deal, as they had to change directions/targets. How many people that was and whether the masses behind them benefit more from this is something only Demi can really answer. Or my buddy that is strictly casual F2P, now when he pulls a LT he doesn't have the HP to roster the new character and can't get covers for the ones he has already rostered. Should he sell the old ones for the new ones?? At his play rate the 4* tier is completely out of reach now as the new ones will be vaulted before he has them fully covered. He only has Spiderwoman and Gwenpool rostered from latest. The other 10 4s he has rostered are vaulted.
GrumpySmurf1002 said: Vhailorx said:Focusing on the particular merits or flaws with any group of current 12 is a mistake. By definition the group will always be in flux. The best way to evaluate this concern is to ask "At any given time, can a player be competitive with a random selection of 8-12 out of all 4*s in the game?" (And again, it's really important to define "competitive." For this post I will use the term to mean able to grind 6/6 on all available PVE nodes and hit 900 in PVP. That's the level of play that will allow anyone to get 4* progression rewards in CL 7+.). I would say yes in PVE and possibly in PVP. In pve having some random 4*s is likely good enough to play all available nodes (it will be impossible to play all essential nodes with just 12, but that is an unavoidable problem for everyone but dedicated vets with every character rostered). Some weeks will boost the right characters and will be easy. Other weeks will with offer no boosted 4*s and things will be more challenging, but should still be possible. On the PVP side of things, 900 is still doable with im40 + a good boosted 4*. But it's very hard to get 900 with IM40 + an unboosted champ (even peggy or Ice). Two characters with less than 15k health in high score pvp means lots of attacks coming in very fast. So when a player has a single, decent 4* boosted they can probably hit 900 without too much trouble. But if a player only has 8-12 4*s champed, then weeks without any boosted 4*s will be very rough in high score PVP. Fair enough, but with Medusa/Carol in the tokens until likely late August if not late September, we're looking at a lengthy amount of time where the current set has multiple viable groups that can be obtained quickly.PvP is always going to be the strain, simply because 5*s are rampant enough now that anything short of a boosted 4* team is going to get creamed. At least in this current set, players (in theory) should be able to ramp up faster and get to a point where they have the options to try for 900. With 50 characters and counting, that transition was (if not already is) going to be overwhelming without doing something to streamline it.The people that got caught mid-transition are obviously the ones that lost the most in the deal, as they had to change directions/targets. How many people that was and whether the masses behind them benefit more from this is something only Demi can really answer.
Vhailorx said:Focusing on the particular merits or flaws with any group of current 12 is a mistake. By definition the group will always be in flux. The best way to evaluate this concern is to ask "At any given time, can a player be competitive with a random selection of 8-12 out of all 4*s in the game?" (And again, it's really important to define "competitive." For this post I will use the term to mean able to grind 6/6 on all available PVE nodes and hit 900 in PVP. That's the level of play that will allow anyone to get 4* progression rewards in CL 7+.). I would say yes in PVE and possibly in PVP. In pve having some random 4*s is likely good enough to play all available nodes (it will be impossible to play all essential nodes with just 12, but that is an unavoidable problem for everyone but dedicated vets with every character rostered). Some weeks will boost the right characters and will be easy. Other weeks will with offer no boosted 4*s and things will be more challenging, but should still be possible. On the PVP side of things, 900 is still doable with im40 + a good boosted 4*. But it's very hard to get 900 with IM40 + an unboosted champ (even peggy or Ice). Two characters with less than 15k health in high score pvp means lots of attacks coming in very fast. So when a player has a single, decent 4* boosted they can probably hit 900 without too much trouble. But if a player only has 8-12 4*s champed, then weeks without any boosted 4*s will be very rough in high score PVP.
It sucks but this was somewhat a problem before vaulting, this just ensures that people that play less frequently run into it MORE frequently.
It does however completely screw the person that doesn't pull fast enough to get 13 covers for a 4* before they retire, in that case you could over time champion a character without vaulting, but with vaulting you can pretty much resign yourself to never breaking into the 4* tier.
MissChinch said: Milk Jugz said: GrumpySmurf1002 said: Vhailorx said:Focusing on the particular merits or flaws with any group of current 12 is a mistake. By definition the group will always be in flux. The best way to evaluate this concern is to ask "At any given time, can a player be competitive with a random selection of 8-12 out of all 4*s in the game?" (And again, it's really important to define "competitive." For this post I will use the term to mean able to grind 6/6 on all available PVE nodes and hit 900 in PVP. That's the level of play that will allow anyone to get 4* progression rewards in CL 7+.). I would say yes in PVE and possibly in PVP. In pve having some random 4*s is likely good enough to play all available nodes (it will be impossible to play all essential nodes with just 12, but that is an unavoidable problem for everyone but dedicated vets with every character rostered). Some weeks will boost the right characters and will be easy. Other weeks will with offer no boosted 4*s and things will be more challenging, but should still be possible. On the PVP side of things, 900 is still doable with im40 + a good boosted 4*. But it's very hard to get 900 with IM40 + an unboosted champ (even peggy or Ice). Two characters with less than 15k health in high score pvp means lots of attacks coming in very fast. So when a player has a single, decent 4* boosted they can probably hit 900 without too much trouble. But if a player only has 8-12 4*s champed, then weeks without any boosted 4*s will be very rough in high score PVP. Fair enough, but with Medusa/Carol in the tokens until likely late August if not late September, we're looking at a lengthy amount of time where the current set has multiple viable groups that can be obtained quickly.PvP is always going to be the strain, simply because 5*s are rampant enough now that anything short of a boosted 4* team is going to get creamed. At least in this current set, players (in theory) should be able to ramp up faster and get to a point where they have the options to try for 900. With 50 characters and counting, that transition was (if not already is) going to be overwhelming without doing something to streamline it.The people that got caught mid-transition are obviously the ones that lost the most in the deal, as they had to change directions/targets. How many people that was and whether the masses behind them benefit more from this is something only Demi can really answer. Or my buddy that is strictly casual F2P, now when he pulls a LT he doesn't have the HP to roster the new character and can't get covers for the ones he has already rostered. Should he sell the old ones for the new ones?? At his play rate the 4* tier is completely out of reach now as the new ones will be vaulted before he has them fully covered. He only has Spiderwoman and Gwenpool rostered from latest. The other 10 4s he has rostered are vaulted. It sucks but this was somewhat a problem before vaulting, this just ensures that people that play less frequently run into it MORE frequently.It does however completely screw the person that doesn't pull fast enough to get 13 covers for a 4* before they retire, in that case you could over time champion a character without vaulting, but with vaulting you can pretty much resign yourself to never breaking into the 4* tier.
Milk Jugz said: snip Exactly!! Under the old system he would EVENTUALLY reach 4* land but under the new system its out of reach
snip
Wjohnson992 said:1. Its just reading comprehension. The speed of getting the latest 12 to 13 covers has increased rapidly now (YOU happily preach that) so can you really not understand that the rate of covers has increased since vaulting BUT the rate of iso has been unchanged since vaulting. What part of this is too complicated? The 14 day expiry hasn't changed either so wasting covers is made worse now. You get covers far quicker than iso.
Wjohnson992 said:2. You have regularly jumped to the defence of vaulting and repeatedly preached about latest 12 being sufficient so you clearly do.
Fightmastermpq said: Wjohnson992 said:1. Its just reading comprehension. The speed of getting the latest 12 to 13 covers has increased rapidly now (YOU happily preach that) so can you really not understand that the rate of covers has increased since vaulting BUT the rate of iso has been unchanged since vaulting. What part of this is too complicated? The 14 day expiry hasn't changed either so wasting covers is made worse now. You get covers far quicker than iso. No. The rate of covers has not increased, the number of 4* covers you pull today is by and large the same as it was before vaulting. The total amount of ISO required to champ all of your 4*s has also remained unchanged, and so there is absolutely no ISO shortage.
Skrofa said: Bonus heroes on 3* "works". We get enough standard tokens that every 2-3 days we are guaranteed at least one bonus 3*. Set a guy, reach a milestone from rewards, move to the next one.
Jaedenkaal said: Milk Jugz said: snip Exactly!! Under the old system he would EVENTUALLY reach 4* land but under the new system its out of reach Actually, under the old system he'd probably never reach 4* land at that rate, if it weren't for the non-random covers he'd eventually get from 3* champs (which haven't changed), events like Growth Industry, daily resupply, and etc... since it sounds like he's getting 1 4* cover per week at best. That's simply not fast enough to max out a 4* character at 1/50 (and dropping) odds.Plus, he'd have been just as likely to end up with his first maxed 4* be someone like Venom or Mr F.
Skrofa said: I was one of the people who got caught in the middle of the 4* transition. Most of my 4*s were adequately covered and I can hope to champ them when ISO allows. Most of them though have 0/5/5 or close to that configuration. Set them as bonus heroes? We all know the odds of getting that third cover.
broll said: Skrofa said: Bonus heroes on 3* "works". We get enough standard tokens that every 2-3 days we are guaranteed at least one bonus 3*. Set a guy, reach a milestone from rewards, move to the next one. Is that a money back guarantee? I certainly am not getting a 3* BH every 2-3 days. I don't think 3* works any better than 4*. The same problems are still there, just the magnitude and therefor impact is worse for 4*.
MarkersMake said: Fightmastermpq said: Wjohnson992 said: Fightmastermpq said: JVReal said: I honestly wouldn't object to vaulting so much, if I had access to a larger flow of Iso to level the characters to minimize wasted covers. It feels terrible having to sell covers of 4* characters that I know will eventually end up vaulted around the time I can afford to champ them.Buying Iso is not a solution, and with getting 3 intercepts a week... that is not feasible option. I just don't think this is a real problem. Now you only need ISO for 12 characters and you have 8 months to get it before they get vaulted. There is no way it takes you that long to get the ISO you need. I can see you have 20 champed 4s, which means that under the old system you needed ISO for 23 characters to minimize wasted covers. Vaulting has actually helped your ISO needs, not hurt them.The iso shortage is worse now. The excuse of "less characters need iso" is irrelevant since the levels of those characters gets more expensive much faster. Any of the theoretical benefit of a reduced character pool is cancelled by the speed of the cost per level increasing. Oh, my bad. I didn't realize it cost more to level the newer characters, I thought all 4*s had the same leveling costs. It's a time thing. Right now, in order to keep up with your 4* champing needs, you need to make X ISO per day (40k?). That number is totally achievable. You can keep up with champing 4*s as they get rotated into tokens, even though it might be a bit bumpy to start. We will completely ignore ISO needs for any remaining 3*s that need champing (even though it's completely reasonable for people to begin transitioning before champing every single 3*), as well as any saving up to level/champ 5*s (because that's a long way off). But what if I don't play enough to make X ISO per day? What if I only make X/2 ISO instead? Prior to vaulting, it was "hey whatever", right? It just takes me longer to cover my characters, and when I do get them covered, I simply have to wait to champ them until I make enough ISO. But with vaulting, I can't do that. If I don't champ them before they become vaulted, then they simply won't get champed, because they'll be removed from tokens at some point. And then I am left with the choice of either hoarding tokens while I am iso-poor and having characters become vaulted before I can fully cover them, or cashing my tokens in and being forced to sell potentially dozens of covers.So yeah, vaulting changed something. Making less iso per day used to simply mean slower progress. Now, if you are below X ISO per day, it also means either more wasted covers, or fewer champable characters. That's a valid complaint. Not everyone can put in 2-3+ hours of MPQ per day to make that much ISO. And regardless of the specific number of hours it takes each person to make that critical ISO amount per day, the game shouldn't *penalize* you if you don't put in a certain minimum daily play time. Vaulting means that it does.
Fightmastermpq said: Wjohnson992 said: Fightmastermpq said: JVReal said: I honestly wouldn't object to vaulting so much, if I had access to a larger flow of Iso to level the characters to minimize wasted covers. It feels terrible having to sell covers of 4* characters that I know will eventually end up vaulted around the time I can afford to champ them.Buying Iso is not a solution, and with getting 3 intercepts a week... that is not feasible option. I just don't think this is a real problem. Now you only need ISO for 12 characters and you have 8 months to get it before they get vaulted. There is no way it takes you that long to get the ISO you need. I can see you have 20 champed 4s, which means that under the old system you needed ISO for 23 characters to minimize wasted covers. Vaulting has actually helped your ISO needs, not hurt them.The iso shortage is worse now. The excuse of "less characters need iso" is irrelevant since the levels of those characters gets more expensive much faster. Any of the theoretical benefit of a reduced character pool is cancelled by the speed of the cost per level increasing. Oh, my bad. I didn't realize it cost more to level the newer characters, I thought all 4*s had the same leveling costs.
Wjohnson992 said: Fightmastermpq said: JVReal said: I honestly wouldn't object to vaulting so much, if I had access to a larger flow of Iso to level the characters to minimize wasted covers. It feels terrible having to sell covers of 4* characters that I know will eventually end up vaulted around the time I can afford to champ them.Buying Iso is not a solution, and with getting 3 intercepts a week... that is not feasible option. I just don't think this is a real problem. Now you only need ISO for 12 characters and you have 8 months to get it before they get vaulted. There is no way it takes you that long to get the ISO you need. I can see you have 20 champed 4s, which means that under the old system you needed ISO for 23 characters to minimize wasted covers. Vaulting has actually helped your ISO needs, not hurt them.The iso shortage is worse now. The excuse of "less characters need iso" is irrelevant since the levels of those characters gets more expensive much faster. Any of the theoretical benefit of a reduced character pool is cancelled by the speed of the cost per level increasing.
Fightmastermpq said: JVReal said: I honestly wouldn't object to vaulting so much, if I had access to a larger flow of Iso to level the characters to minimize wasted covers. It feels terrible having to sell covers of 4* characters that I know will eventually end up vaulted around the time I can afford to champ them.Buying Iso is not a solution, and with getting 3 intercepts a week... that is not feasible option. I just don't think this is a real problem. Now you only need ISO for 12 characters and you have 8 months to get it before they get vaulted. There is no way it takes you that long to get the ISO you need. I can see you have 20 champed 4s, which means that under the old system you needed ISO for 23 characters to minimize wasted covers. Vaulting has actually helped your ISO needs, not hurt them.
JVReal said: I honestly wouldn't object to vaulting so much, if I had access to a larger flow of Iso to level the characters to minimize wasted covers. It feels terrible having to sell covers of 4* characters that I know will eventually end up vaulted around the time I can afford to champ them.Buying Iso is not a solution, and with getting 3 intercepts a week... that is not feasible option.
Skrofa said: broll said: Skrofa said: Bonus heroes on 3* "works". We get enough standard tokens that every 2-3 days we are guaranteed at least one bonus 3*. Set a guy, reach a milestone from rewards, move to the next one. Is that a money back guarantee? I certainly am not getting a 3* BH every 2-3 days. I don't think 3* works any better than 4*. The same problems are still there, just the magnitude and therefor impact is worse for 4*. Maybe I was quite generous with my 2-3 day assessment and I only base this number from my own experience... This is how it feels to me at least. And that is why I have "works". When vaulting started I had a lot of 3* under the 183 milestone. Now I have 5 I think, all because of the set, reach and move on tactic I used with the 3* BH.4*... I think I got something like 5 4* BH in these two monthsAnd 3 5* but they are really irrelevant for me now and forever I think
broll said: But if we had the old system and only added BH to it without vaulting, it would be more of an improvement than what we have (or at least have some 3rd or more token set that has the old ones).
Jaedenkaal said: Keeping all 4*s rostered on the old system isn't a treadmill at all, it's a sidewalk going up a hill; getting longer all time and going up a steeper slope. You can stop any time you want and you won't fall off, but the progress to get to the end keeps getting harder and further away nonetheless.
Jaedenkaal said: broll said: But if we had the old system and only added BH to it without vaulting, it would be more of an improvement than what we have (or at least have some 3rd or more token set that has the old ones). Sure, 5% more characters that you want, with no other changes; I've never argued that Bonus Heroes wouldn't have been good on its own.But that's not the system we now have, so I see no point in comparing either the before system "A" or the after system "B" with hypothetical system "C" Planning for or hoping for "C" doesn't help anyone make the best of what they have.I've been thinking of a better way to phrase your treadmill analogy, but it's not a simple enough system or comparison to make the analogy work at all. In terms of keeping all characters rostered, it works, but it's not nearly so dire as you claim:Keeping all 4*s rostered on the old system isn't a treadmill at all, it's a sidewalk going up a hill; getting longer all time and going up a steeper slope. You can stop any time you want and you won't fall off, but the progress to get to the end keeps getting harder and further away nonetheless.On the new system, keeping all 4*s rostered is a treadmill, yes. It moves at about the same rate as the old system sidewalk lengthens, but it's all flat, so it's no harder the longer you walk/run. If you don't go fast enough, sure, you fall off the end, but it's a reasonably long treadmill so you only have to maintain the pace on average. And even if you can't keep up, you don't get flung off, you just drop off the end. And you can wait there until you have enough energy to keep up with the pace for a while longer, at which point you can get back on. You don't pick up where you left off; the treadmill was still going even while you weren't on it, but it's no -harder- to get back on.Anyways, the analogy breaks down when we're talking about leveling characters and championing them, but this is your analogy, after all.