*** Ragnarok (Dark Avengers) ***

Unknown

gamar wrote:

ark123 wrote:

gamar wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Completely agree. The person I was answering to was actually advocating for a Thor's nerf. Hyperbole was merited.

Not really, because Thor merits a nerf

Not really. He's great as a boosted character but outside of that he's just too slow to matter much in pvp.

Only because X-Force merits a nerf

maybe you should cry about it in every thread, it seems to be working great

Heartburn

GothicKratos wrote:

I can't fathom how he was "nerfed", but he's certainly not moved up any tiers. It was definitely a lateral move from sub-par to sub-par.

I think this says it all. He got an additional skill and with it he seems about the same. If not a little worse. Too bad I was looking forward to rags reworking up to the day it came out. What a disappointment.

NorthernPolarity

onimus wrote:

He competes with Beast and Doc Oc for "Worst 3 star"

The only thing that makes him slightly better than those 2 is his health, which is a nice 10.2k.

His Red is still good for spammable damage. Unfortunately, now it leads into nothing, rather than a meh green.

His Green is stupid and outclassed, but it isn't....awful damage...I mean, it is. But it's not Sentry Green bad.

And then his blue....awful. Horrendous. Terrifyingly embarrassing.

You literally can't overexaggerate how bad that ability is. A tinykitty burst heal that makes a hand full of charge tiles that are just as likely to never be matched as they are to be matched by the enemy.

It's a shame because, even though he was totally outclassed in every single way, his old version was at least usable. This Ragnarok is just useless beyond all comprehension.

This is a whole new level of nerfing.

Nerfing a character into uselessness used to be called pulling a Sentry.

But from this point on, it will be known as Bagnaroking.

His red alone makes him a higher tier than Beast or Doc Ock: I think it's insane that you all think that new Ragnarok is somehow in the bottom tier of 3*. I mean sure, you can write off his red as "good damage that leads into nothing", or you can describe it as what it actually is, which is thunder strike color shifted into blue (which 2 ragnarok reds is actually equivalent to). Given that Thunder Strike is an OP tier ability, it then follows that any character with literally only this ability and nothing else (which WORST case scenario is what Rags is) in of itself cannot be bottom tier SOLELY based on the power level of this singular ability. What does it take to make Ragnarok good? A single overpowered blue ability. Thunderclap into demolition is insane. Thunderclap into grocket blue is probably very good, so on and so forth. What does it take to make beast good? Nothing, because even in the most ideal scenario, he's extremely inconsistent and still hardly impacts the game at all.

We can proclaim the terribleness of blue and use that to justify that Ragnarok is no better than he was before and arguably worse, but to say that he's as bad as Doc Ock and Beast is just a plain overreaction, and overreactions like this simply undermine the opinions of the forum in general, since why would the devs listen to people who call any character that isn't say Punisher tier beast tier?

Unknown

onimus wrote:

It's a shame because, even though he was totally outclassed in every single way, his old version was at least usable. This Ragnarok is just useless beyond all comprehension.

Now you're going too far. Due to his "no strong color" mechanic old Rags generally tanked no colors so his high-ish HP was useless; and his cheap, bad green meant the AI loved to use that instead of your team's better green. He was the only character in the game (INCLUDING Beast and Doc Ock) where I would rather go into battle with just two characters than have him on my team. In no way was old Rags usable.

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

maybe you should cry about it in every thread, it seems to be working great

If you have time to be the anti-Phantron in every thread, I have time to point out how absurd you are in every thread

Unknown

You do know PvP isn't the end all be all in this game right? Old Rags was great at PvE.

Heartburn

Comparing to beast maybe an exaggeration. But he is definitely not top tier. In PvP are you going to give up x force to pair Rags with Thor. No he only has marginal synergy with her cause they compete for AP in red and blue. So then are you going to give up all your other heroes to run rags + a 3*? Maybe in the beginning of the event cause if you do it late, it will just put a target on your back. Anyways, to put it in perspective you can use a 2* team in the beginng to accomplish the same thing.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

This makes no sense to me. If you want a character balanced as a PvE villain only, keep him out of our hands like Gorgon. If you expect him to be "playable" then he needs to actually be, ya know, playable.

I guess my attempt at optimistic humor failed. I was trying to follow in the words of King Edward the Longshenks (in the movie Braveheart) when he said, "(As king) you have to find the good in any situation." Sure, there is no doubt it'd be overall preferable if Rags were buffed to become an awesome roster addition, but if he's gonna suck, and suck hard, then I'd rather it be him than many other characters that I don't have to face in PVE every second or third node. So at least there was one ray of light to be found imo.

Heartburn

gamar wrote:

onimus wrote:

It's a shame because, even though he was totally outclassed in every single way, his old version was at least usable. This Ragnarok is just useless beyond all comprehension.

Now you're going too far. Due to his "no strong color" mechanic old Rags generally tanked no colors so his high-ish HP was useless; and his cheap, bad green meant the AI loved to use that instead of your team's better green. He was the only character in the game (INCLUDING Beast and Doc Ock) where I would rather go into battle with just two characters than have him on my team. In no way was old Rags usable.

I like to use him with my xforce as a 3rd string partner as a red to green generator

Unknown

I think the question should be bagman or Ragman? because he is so bad that bagman is getting put down when he is called ragman and not the other way around. All they had to do was add a third color...instead they turned him into the ai saboteur...which is helpful in pve...if you still play pve that is.

Unknown

One thing I noticed which would increase his value (or the value of charged tiles in general) immediately would be teaching the AI to prioritize matching charged tiles. In a PvE match just now the AI could have actually matched 2 charged green tiles (this happens rarely - the 3 charged tiles usually get scattered on the board and are not matchable) after a Lightning Rod, but no... it goes for TU-tiles.

SnowcaTT

I had him at 127 as a 4/5, and he wasn't bad. Really was looking forward to another good character, if they added a third good ability and simply left green/red alone he might have been decent. Just like Doom and Loki! But nope, pure nerf - I'd rather play Sentry. Maybe Beast or Doc Oc are worse than him, not many others.

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

That's all fine Konan but then how you you explain the Thor vs Rags comparison? Rags is just suppose to be worse? That's a pretty strange way to balance a guy and then expect us to use him.

Yes. Rags green is supposed to be worse. He makes charged tiles and produces blue from red, so you can't compare them directly. You use them for different things. You can't expect all abilities at their ap costs to be equally as powerful, because that would ignore what part the character plays.

You can compare 2* thor and 3* thor abilities directly. 3* thor is better - they play the same part but one is just better.

I'm not comparing Rags Red or Blue to anything Thor does directly. I can totally compare both Green powers directly tho. They both do AoE damage, they both cost 14 AP, they both are fed by other abilities found on the character. Comparatively, Ragnarok's is inferior to Thor's. And if it's designed to be inferior just because he's a villain I consider that bad design.

And the idea you can't compare 3* characters to each other is ridiculous. Of course you can. There is a whole rankings thread in the Characters subforum dedicated to this. Rags and Thor even comparatively play the same role. 10,200 health tank that has a green fed AoE power at 14 AP. They are basically clones. If Ragnarok's green did more damage or cost less you could use them interchangeably, or bring Rags on PvE nodes that have a Thor. Because it doesn't he's strictly inferior to his closest comparison which makes him useless.

konannfriends

uhhmm i dont have maxed thor sooo. cant i advocate and hate on him. i mean who ever said hes to slow can *** because i get killed by that last minute thunderstrike into call of the storm all the time.

snlf25

I think The Coming of Bagnarok has been absolutely brilliant because now I don't have to hear his stupid "HYOOYAH" every single turn as he fornicates my team and my plans. Now that he is completely neutered I love fighting him. Easy points. Do the same to that smug butthole Bullseye and to 2* Daken please.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

That's all fine Konan but then how you you explain the Thor vs Rags comparison? Rags is just suppose to be worse? That's a pretty strange way to balance a guy and then expect us to use him.

Yes. Rags green is supposed to be worse. He makes charged tiles and produces blue from red, so you can't compare them directly. You use them for different things. You can't expect all abilities at their ap costs to be equally as powerful, because that would ignore what part the character plays.

You can compare 2* thor and 3* thor abilities directly. 3* thor is better - they play the same part but one is just better.

I'm not comparing Rags Red or Blue to anything Thor does directly. I can totally compare both Green powers directly tho. They both do AoE damage, they both cost 14 AP, they both are fed by other abilities found on the character. Comparatively, Ragnarok's is inferior to Thor's. And if it's designed to be inferior just because he's a villain I consider that bad design.

And the idea you can't compare 3* characters to each other is ridiculous. Of course you can. There is a whole rankings thread in the Characters subforum dedicated to this. Rags and Thor even comparatively play the same role. 10,200 health tank that has a green fed AoE power at 14 AP. They are basically clones. If Ragnarok's green did more damage or cost less you could use them interchangeably, or bring Rags on PvE nodes that have a Thor. Because it doesn't he's strictly inferior to his closest comparison which makes him useless.

That's not what strictly inferior means.

If you're pairing him with GT you benefit from his charged tiles, for instance. If you only have blue ap lthor can't do anything but he can.

You can compare abilities to each other, it just doesn't mean anything from a design standpoint. HT has a better red than all 3*s from a damage per ap standpoint but it doesn't make him automatically superior to patch, for instance. OBW probably has the best purple in the game but she's not better than blade. There's a ton of examples.

Unknown

Really? Because using blue to make 3 charge tiles instead of 5 doesn't sound like it's helping.

By strictly inferior I meant "any chance I could use Ragnarok and Thor on the same node, I'm taking Thor". Pretty sure that's exactly what it means.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

Really? Because using blue to make 3 charge tiles instead of 5 doesn't sound like it's helping.

By strictly inferior I meant "any chance I could use Ragnarok and Thor on the same node, I'm taking Thor". Pretty sure that's exactly what it means.

I mean it's not. Strictly inferior means worse in every case. Maybe you're thinking of the word "worse". Or maybe you've come up with a new definition for those words, like when someone uses "literally" to mean "very much so".

Mawtful

Fix Bagnabag?

Ragnarok's old powerset was already about as basic as you can get. The AI certainly had no problems with it.
It certainly seems that the concept behind his new powerset was to emulate the power progression of 2/3* Thor, but it just falls short.
Ragnarok is a cyborg clone of Thor, and that should be the core theme to his character. He's not really flashy, he basically shows up and blasts stuff with lightning or bashes it with his hammer.
I wanted to at least try and capture some of that "Thor clone" feel, while still coming up with something unique for him.

Energize (Active-Passive Blue, 6 AP)
Ragnarok slams his hammer into the ground, leaving behind a field of static electricity.
Creates a 1-turn blue countdown tile. While active, whenever the opponent makes a match, 1 Red or Black basic tile becomes Charged.
Passive: Whenever Ragnarok matches a Charged Tile, he receives a burst of X health.

Rank 2: Increase countdown by 1; creates 2 Charged Tiles.
Rank 3: Increase healing.
Rank 4: Increase countdown by 1; creates 3 Charged Tiles.
Rank 5: If an opponent matches the countdown, they become stunned for 2 turns.

I said that he didn't need to be flashy and then followed that with a complicated active-passive ability with a lot going on, but this is the "unique" ability which I think will help define this powerset and give Rags a place on teams as more Charged Tile creators are added to the game.

The passive component should be pretty easy to comprehend. Ragnarok is a robot, so he gets a burst of healing from the charged tiles. It should only be a small burst, but this gives him another edge against other Charged Tile generators.
With the countdown, I wanted a different way to add Charged Tiles to the board instead of just pay AP for the ability. The idea here is that when you're playing against Ragnarok, you're potentially feeding him whenever you make a match. Essentially his opponents generate the Charged Tiles, giving him the first opportunity to match them. The stun is 2 turns because making a match already ends the turn in most cases. If it was a 1-turn stun, that character would not actually lose a turn.

Shock and Awe (Active Black, 10 AP)
Thunder cracks as Ragnarok swings his hammer.
Deals X damage and destroys up to 1 random Charged Tile, generating AP.

Rank 2: Increase damage.
Rank 3: Destroys up to 2 Charged Tiles, generating AP.
Rank 4: Increase damage.
Rank 5: Destroys up to 3 Charged Tiles, generating AP.

OK, this one's pretty straight forward, although I think it could still end up getting tweaked.
I think the cost is about right; it's comparable to Surgical Strike, since Rank 5 could easily come away with 9 AP. Although it should probably only deal damage on par with say Mjolnir's Might.
Alternatively, drop the cost by 1-2 AP, target any Red or Black tiles so that 9 AP is less guaranteed and increase total damage slightly.

Thunderstruck (Active Red, 14 AP)
Ragnarok unleashes a burst of lightning from his hammer, blasting his enemies and scoring the battlefield.
Deals X team damage.

Rank 2: Increase damage.
Rank 3: Also destroys 2 adjacent random columns, does not generate AP.
Rank 4: Increase damage.
Rank 5: Also increase all friendly countdowns by 1.

Again, nothing too fancy here. This is Ragnarok's very own "gathered storm".
A big AoE hit. I'd probably keep the damage at around the ~2200 mark like Godlike Power, maybe just a touch less, since you're destroying 2 columns again - although it's a random 2, not just the centre 2 each time. That tile destruction also allows the chance of cascades, so there's a bit of utility in there too. Speaking of utility, if you go all the way to Rank 5, you'll increase friendly cooldown timers. It won't help your allied XForce to heal any faster or let Cap get his shield back in time, but it's purpose to to maintain the countdown from his own Energize ability - giving your opponent another turn to make more Charged Tiles for you or another chance to stun themselves.

Unknown

over_clocked wrote:

Ragnarok now has 10200 HP at max. I think he's not supposed to actually be good, being a clone and the like.

The problem with health being "priced" so high is that it's only worth on a decent/great character. If the character is mediocre, then even 10k+ health is not enough for players to use them, mainly because we have strong characters with high health. Right now we have characters who can deal 3-4k+ damage with 6-8 AP so that extra 4k health doesn't mean much if it takes you 5 minutes to kill the first enemy.