*** Ragnarok (Dark Avengers) ***

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Really? Because using blue to make 3 charge tiles instead of 5 doesn't sound like it's helping.

By strictly inferior I meant "any chance I could use Ragnarok and Thor on the same node, I'm taking Thor". Pretty sure that's exactly what it means.

I mean it's not. Strictly inferior means worse in every case. Maybe you're thinking of the word "worse". Or maybe you've come up with a new definition for those words, like when someone uses "literally" to mean "very much so".

He *IS* worse in every case. If it's possible to bring Thor, Thor is better than Ragnarok. I said what I meant damnit.

Tannen

Here's the "fix" as I see it.

Move the column destruction from his Green ability to his Blue ability and then rebalance dmg/abilty cost based on those changes.

That way you have:
Red - small single target dmg combined with a blue generator ability. (Same cost)
Blue - a utility move -- does no damage, but shakes up the board, creates green charged tiles and gives a small heal. (Cost increased to account for column destruction)
Green - heavy aoe with some team damage included. (Either dmg increased to suit cost, or cost decreased to suit)

Suspect that the costs will be far more appropriate at that point -- at a guess, Green would drop to 9ish(or increase to 4k+ aoe) and his Blue would blow out to probably 14+, given the apparently high weight of a column destruction.

That change SHOULD make green's cost more palatable (which would be great), and blue just becomes a generalised utility abilty that doesn't have to be cast if people don't want to.

El Satanno

Rags most definitely did not come out of the vault any better. Full disclosure, I have him at 5/5/0 as I had no motivation to go through the obscene hassle to get any of his blue covers. That being said, I faced off against plenty of maxed and over-leveled versions of Bagnarok/Ragnabag in both PvP and PvE, and I really do consider him nothing but a meat shield. Like most others have already said, he generally does two things in any given match: collects blue, or creates green charged tiles for me to collect. I've only even seen his bargain-basement CtS a handful of times, and laughed it off in all cases. Nope, he's definitely equally bad or worse than before.

Unknown

The saddest thing is he's not even that hard to fix, just recost Godlike Power. If it were 10 he would have a viable use as an alternate to Thor. Hell you could even play him alongside Thor so both Blue and Yellow go into Green. Situation would dictate if you want cheap self damage AoE or more expensive better single target AoE.

The only explination I can think of as to why Godlike Power sits where it sits right now is the "charge tile" tax from Lightning Rod somehow devalues his other powers, and that ain't cool. Powers can have synergy but need to be valued based on their own merits. Clearly Godlike Power isn't worth 14 AP when you can just use Call the Storm instead.

El Satanno

Lerysh wrote:

The saddest thing is he's not even that hard to fix, just recost Godlike Power.

Actually, what's truly sad is that all you have to do is look around this forum a bit and find plenty of really good ways to fix many ailing characters. I don't expect that to start happening any time soon, no matter how simple it may be. I expect this version of Ragnarok is the one we will be living with until the whole game goes under.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Really? Because using blue to make 3 charge tiles instead of 5 doesn't sound like it's helping.

By strictly inferior I meant "any chance I could use Ragnarok and Thor on the same node, I'm taking Thor". Pretty sure that's exactly what it means.

I mean it's not. Strictly inferior means worse in every case. Maybe you're thinking of the word "worse". Or maybe you've come up with a new definition for those words, like when someone uses "literally" to mean "very much so".

He *IS* worse in every case. If it's possible to bring Thor, Thor is better than Ragnarok. I said what I meant damnit.

You're just wrong. Obviously. I mean he even has a different color, that alone makes him better in some cases, when you need a blue. He heals, makes charged tiles. He doesn't produce new tiles, so he doesn't activate mischief.
If you mean what you said, you just don't understand how the game works.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

onimus wrote:

He competes with Beast and Doc Oc for "Worst 3 star"

The only thing that makes him slightly better than those 2 is his health, which is a nice 10.2k.

His Red is still good for spammable damage. Unfortunately, now it leads into nothing, rather than a meh green.

His Green is stupid and outclassed, but it isn't....awful damage...I mean, it is. But it's not Sentry Green bad.

And then his blue....awful. Horrendous. Terrifyingly embarrassing.

You literally can't overexaggerate how bad that ability is. A tinykitty burst heal that makes a hand full of charge tiles that are just as likely to never be matched as they are to be matched by the enemy.

It's a shame because, even though he was totally outclassed in every single way, his old version was at least usable. This Ragnarok is just useless beyond all comprehension.

This is a whole new level of nerfing.

Nerfing a character into uselessness used to be called pulling a Sentry.

But from this point on, it will be known as Bagnaroking.

His red alone makes him a higher tier than Beast or Doc Ock: I think it's insane that you all think that new Ragnarok is somehow in the bottom tier of 3*. I mean sure, you can write off his red as "good damage that leads into nothing", or you can describe it as what it actually is, which is thunder strike color shifted into blue (which 2 ragnarok reds is actually equivalent to). Given that Thunder Strike is an OP tier ability, it then follows that any character with literally only this ability and nothing else (which WORST case scenario is what Rags is) in of itself cannot be bottom tier SOLELY based on the power level of this singular ability. What does it take to make Ragnarok good? A single overpowered blue ability. Thunderclap into demolition is insane. Thunderclap into grocket blue is probably very good, so on and so forth. What does it take to make beast good? Nothing, because even in the most ideal scenario, he's extremely inconsistent and still hardly impacts the game at all.

We can proclaim the terribleness of blue and use that to justify that Ragnarok is no better than he was before and arguably worse, but to say that he's as bad as Doc Ock and Beast is just a plain overreaction, and overreactions like this simply undermine the opinions of the forum in general, since why would the devs listen to people who call any character that isn't say Punisher tier beast tier?

I'm sorry that you feel my opinion is an overreaction, and I'm sorry that you feel like you need to undermine my opinion in order to strengthen your point. The whole thing about my "overreaction" undermining the opinions of the forum sounded like a direct "You're a problem" attack on my value to the community. But if that's your debating style, it's cool.

The truth is he is, in fact, terrible. Yes, if you have someone on your team with a better blue, he's usable as a battery. And if you have someone with a better green, his blue may be usable as a (****) battery.

But having two abilities that, in his own kit, do nothing of any value, is not going to make him very useful.

His best case scenario is niche as a battery for blue. Everything else he does is outclassed in the worst kind of way. His green does bad damage, at a bad AP value and it deals damage to his own team. His blue is burst health and makes a measley 2 to 3 charged tiles. His red is good but blue is not sought after like Green is. Comparing it to Thunder Strike is reckless, at best. At worst, it is an overreaction akin to what you accused me of.

Blue's value tanked pretty significantly with 4hor's nerf, as her blue was really the only one you saw in competitive play.

So you can play your Ragnarok, Fury teams if you'd like. If that is how you justify to yourself that D3 didn't take a decent battery for green, an actually useful color, and turned him not only into the shadow of his old **** self, but of every single character in the game short of a small hand ful (such as Doc Oc and Beast), then I'll let you carry that cross.

I have said my piece. Rags is worthless. He was terrible back when he had a decent battery. They turned his battery into a worse color that nobody in the top tier uses except for the occasional Cmags or Fury. They took his green which was bad and somehow made it worse. And they gave him a terrible blue ability.

You may want to try and say it wasn't as bad as that, but you can't really sugarcoat it. They made every single one of his abilities worse than their already underwhelming status. It may not have been a huge nerf since he was already so bad, but don't try to sanctimoniously tell me that I'm being irrational when all I'm doing is telling facts.

Unknown

Heartburn wrote:

gamar wrote:

onimus wrote:

It's a shame because, even though he was totally outclassed in every single way, his old version was at least usable. This Ragnarok is just useless beyond all comprehension.

Now you're going too far. Due to his "no strong color" mechanic old Rags generally tanked no colors so his high-ish HP was useless; and his cheap, bad green meant the AI loved to use that instead of your team's better green. He was the only character in the game (INCLUDING Beast and Doc Ock) where I would rather go into battle with just two characters than have him on my team. In no way was old Rags usable.

I like to use him with my xforce as a 3rd string partner as a red to green generator

Can't do that anymore.

Marc_Spector

Lerysh wrote:

The saddest thing is he's not even that hard to fix, just recost Godlike Power. If it were 10 he would have a viable use as an alternate to Thor. Hell you could even play him alongside Thor so both Blue and Yellow go into Green. Situation would dictate if you want cheap self damage AoE or more expensive better single target AoE.

This. Absolutely this.

Pylgrim

konannfriends wrote:

uhhmm i dont have maxed thor sooo. cant i advocate and hate on him. i mean who ever said hes to slow can *** because i get killed by that last minute thunderstrike into call of the storm all the time.

Ah this explains everything, thanks! "Because I don't have this great toy, all other kids that do have it should have it taken away so I don't feel less special!"

ark123 wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Really? Because using blue to make 3 charge tiles instead of 5 doesn't sound like it's helping.

By strictly inferior I meant "any chance I could use Ragnarok and Thor on the same node, I'm taking Thor". Pretty sure that's exactly what it means.

I mean it's not. Strictly inferior means worse in every case. Maybe you're thinking of the word "worse". Or maybe you've come up with a new definition for those words, like when someone uses "literally" to mean "very much so".

He *IS* worse in every case. If it's possible to bring Thor, Thor is better than Ragnarok. I said what I meant damnit.

You're just wrong. Obviously. I mean he even has a different color, that alone makes him better in some cases, when you need a blue. He heals, makes charged tiles. He doesn't produce new tiles, so he doesn't activate mischief.
If you mean what you said, you just don't understand how the game works.

You are being purposefully contrarian and you know it. Okay, let's figure that in 1 in 100 or whatever occasions for one or several reasons you don't want to bring Thor in. Does that mean that you automatically bring Ragnarok in instead? No, whatever may have made Thor unfit for the fight may very well make Rags unfit, and if not? Well there are much better characters that you can bring in to fill a similar niche, case in point, Kamala Khan.

But sure, in an infinite universe, there must surely be one or even a few times where the stars align just properly that you'd be happy to bring Ragnarok in instead Thor. So yeah, "strictly", completely and anally technically speaking you can argue that the word "strictly" cannot be used, and feel as though you are making a huge point in the discussion. Everybody else in the argument knows that we can round down those 0.000000000001% or whatever outlier occurrences while generally speaking about the nature of an issue, though.

Trisul

Pylgrim wrote:

You are being purposefully contrarian and you know it.

You don't understand, ark is locked in a dungeon and only gets to eat food when he disagrees with someone on the Internet.

Unknown

My suggestion:
1. Instead of changing 3 green basic tiles to charged green tiles, change 3 random basic tiles to 3 charged green tiles.
2. Have Godlike Power destroy 2 random columns. 14 AP is enough to justify cascades, especially with self-damage..

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

You're just wrong. Obviously. I mean he even has a different color, that alone makes him better in some cases, when you need a blue. He heals, makes charged tiles. He doesn't produce new tiles, so he doesn't activate mischief.
If you mean what you said, you just don't understand how the game works.

Different colors doesn't make him any more usable. You never need to bring a blue. There exist plenty of teams already with no purple power on them, and a few with no blue power. Rags does in fact produce new tiles so also triggers Mischief just as bad as Thor with his Red. You also thought Rags could help out TGT with "charge tile generation" on a blue power where he makes less than her. I don't think I'm the one with a misunderstanding here.

Taganov

Definitely Bagnarok. Bad damage + team damage + bad charged tile mechanics? Could not be bothered to compete for a blue.

Unknown

Pylgrim wrote:

you can argue that the word "strictly" cannot be used

And so I have. Thanks for the support Pylgrim

Unknown

I just want his old green back. It was a fun power and it gave him some niche usage as a fast red/green spammer and board mover. They could have added any power at all and I would have been fine with it, because at 166 potentially tanking three colors with his old powers preserved he would have been a totally playable mid-tier character. His new green is just a stupid power. Overpriced, underpowered, and self-damaging. It's junk, period. Roll back the change to his green and he'd be fine.

Unknown

The only circumstance wherein Ragnarok would be more desirable than Thor is when you had a blue power on your team that was so good that you absolutely had to had to feed it. Rags is a good blue feeder.

I would humbly submit that there are no blue abilities in the game good enough to justify bringing Ragnarok onto your team to feed them. I would further humbly submit that you would be better served supporting them with a (wait for it) support character like Loki or Hood or--if you need a big stack of HP--just bringing in Thor to give you quality coverage in other colors that are actually useful.

If you want to deny the possibility that Rags is strictly inferior to Thor, come up with a team composition wherein he would be preferable to Thor. Not a generalization about actives, not a hand waved in the direction of charged tiles, but an actual three-person team that uses Ragnarok as a superior alternative to Thor. I don't believe it can be done, but I'm far from infallible and it's possible that it's out there.

I will happily but exclusively change my mind when that happens. Until then, he seems strictly inferior to the Asgardian template from which he was built.

Unknown

GT rag loki >GT lthor loki(which can't be used)

There's another point for rags. He isn't one of the 3 thors.

rednailz

ark123 wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Really? Because using blue to make 3 charge tiles instead of 5 doesn't sound like it's helping.

By strictly inferior I meant "any chance I could use Ragnarok and Thor on the same node, I'm taking Thor". Pretty sure that's exactly what it means.

I mean it's not. Strictly inferior means worse in every case. Maybe you're thinking of the word "worse". Or maybe you've come up with a new definition for those words, like when someone uses "literally" to mean "very much so".

He *IS* worse in every case. If it's possible to bring Thor, Thor is better than Ragnarok. I said what I meant damnit.

You're just wrong. Obviously. I mean he even has a different color, that alone makes him better in some cases, when you need a blue. He heals, makes charged tiles. He doesn't produce new tiles, so he doesn't activate mischief.
If you mean what you said, you just don't understand how the game works.

No need to heal yourself or make charged tiles that don't do much when you're 3* thor.. you just kill stuff instead. As far as a situation goes where you "need" a blue. I could name you several better people to put in over Ragbag. There is no case where Rags is 'better' than 3* thor if Rags isn't boosted

rednailz

ark123 wrote:

GT rag loki >GT lthor loki(which can't be used)

There's another point for rags. He isn't one of the 3 thors.

Why on earth would you ever use GT with rags?

Also, you really cant' compare instagibles, you can't say a combo that does exist is better than a combo that doesn't exist...becuase it doesn't exist.