*** Ragnarok (Dark Avengers) ***

Unknown

Delivery is just as important as intention. Especially in the first 10 words of every sentence.

Kiamodo

GEFPenst wrote:

Kiamodo wrote:

GEFPenst wrote:

Troll? What troll? Do you think losing 100$ on game is worst thing to happen? Seriously?

Everything is relative! Is it Cancer? Stumped toe? It's a person spending a lot of money on something that wasn't what he originally paid for. And I don't care how much you make that is ****. And your "tough luck" attitude shows a complete lack of empathy.

Dude, do you have some vendetta against me, or what? Did I insult you in any way? Did you not see that I agree that he was ripped by this nerf, or what? I just wanted to cheer him up by saying that losing 100$ on game (and he still hasn't lost them completely, mind you) is least painful of possible ways to get important lesson/

My examples based on my own experience, firsthand. And even they are pretty painless compared to some other examples in this life.

No Vendetta. Your opinions differ from mine.

Unknown

Saint Matthew wrote:

The issue is the value of each transaction and the assumption of goods received/lack of information. In each case it doesn't matter if D3 put in 2 hours or 200 hours as that is information that doesn't matter for this particular case. What does matter is a consumer knowingly purchased with an understanding of receive a specific purchased product only to have that removed and switched after the fact.

You go an buy an apple and then halfway home it turns into an orange. Oranges are delicious but it isn't what you bought and they make lousy pies.

Of course that matters. You (as a consumer) need to be responsible and determine the value of something in relation to other things you get. Utility, rareity, production costs all play a huge part in making that determination.

A self-contained game that exists on your hard drive is not the same as a virtual trinket you bought in MPQ. You don't 'own' Ragnorak. It's not something you can physically transfer or modify to your whims (like a game or apple is). You are merely renting it's use within the confines of their walled garden. They are the owners and determiners of how it is used.


So, for that reason, you as the consumer need to put a proper value on that and what it represents. If 100 dollars is not a lot to you, then fine. But if 100 dollars is something that represents a significant amount of money, you need to be more responsible.

That being said, there are people are not equipped to make such rational determinations and that's the ugly side of this F2P world that all of us seem to ignore.

Unknown

That does make a lot of sense. I guess I put my money into something I shouldn't have and for that lesson I'm grateful.

darkmagearcanis

tbh, this is what happens when people complain. There are more than enough threads before the nerf of people complaining that Rags was OP. This is what you get and now the forum blows up with more complaints about Rags being too underpowered. Maybe the real lesson is "Think before you b***h."

Unknown

People only complained because they mostly faced Rags in the Lightning Rounds when he had a 200% buff. It was a ridiculous idea and as more and more people got Rags, it became more and more frustrating for the 'have nots' in some of the most hotly contested tournaments.

So, you can't blame the users for complaining, you should blame the devs for not removing those buffs and making those rounds more reasonable and enjoyable for all.

Kiamodo

darkmagearcanis wrote:

tbh, this is what happens when people complain. There are more than enough threads before the nerf of people complaining that Rags was OP. This is what you get and now the forum blows up with more complaints about Rags being too underpowered. Maybe the real lesson is "Think before you b***h."

Yep. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. But I also feel that they ran the numbers somewhere and saw a better option for them. I just don't see it. My main complaint is the timing and lack of communication. I doubt anyone will even use him anymore.

BigMao

The community is not a completely unified crowd - for example I didn't complain about Thunderclap's OP-ness. That said, D3 / Demiurge has an incentive to satisfy as many of us as possible, and that means they should be more considerate toward those of us who were adversely affected.

darkmagearcanis

Kiamodo wrote:

Yep. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. But I also feel that they ran the numbers somewhere and saw a better option for them. I just don't see it. My main complaint is the timing and lack of communication. I doubt anyone will even use him anymore.

I agree that the timing and lack of communication definitely needs works. I have been talking about that issue for weeks now since the holidays. I feel like they are trying but still have no real clue as how to do it properly.

Unknown

Kiamodo wrote:

I doubt anyone will even use him anymore.

Good hp for lightning rounds still...

But instead of going up to 250 in each of those I'll probably just get to 100 before tanking.

Kiamodo

beezer37_84 wrote:

Kiamodo wrote:

I doubt anyone will even use him anymore.

Good hp for lightning rounds still...

But instead of going up to 250 in each of those I'll probably just get to 100 before tanking.

Very true. Outside of LR though his stock is pretty low.

Unknown

Kiamodo wrote:

beezer37_84 wrote:

Kiamodo wrote:

I doubt anyone will even use him anymore.

Good hp for lightning rounds still...

But instead of going up to 250 in each of those I'll probably just get to 100 before tanking.

Very true. Outside of LR though his stock is pretty low.

Yeah, really wish my Thor wasn't maxed with 3 red but oh well. I didn't use rags at all today in the double shot and yeah, battles took longer but it was nice to use different characters. I know I could have always done that but it was just too easy with Rags...

Guess that's the point (of the nerf, I'm still with anyone that is mad about the way in which it happened).

Unknown

I'll be blunt - it's a good change. I hate power creep in games - and it feels like they're doing something smarter, where you balance out what you have, and introduce more things in line. Punisher and Hulk felt like 'ehn' because Ragnarok pushed them so far out of the way. Now I actually feel like they're comparable to the competition. Do I feel they overtuned it? Maybe. He generates green tiles, which isn't comparable to Thor (yellow generation isn't quite as abuseable - except with Thor's instagib yellow, but that's beside the point). Green is a lot more abusive, between Wolverine** and Black Widow***. There shouldn't be a hero that is suddenly the world's greatest AP battery at 2 AP per setup - when I started, I used to think Storm* was hot stuff, getting 10 AP to generate 16 AP. Still a great ability, but compared to old Ragnarok, she's a complete joke.

PS - I say this without concern about people paying for Ragnarok. I'm not going to offer a discussion to persons QQing about their entitlement issues.

Unknown

Kiamodo wrote:

Skyedyne wrote:

I think the nerf was needed. Being spammable without actually working towards recharging the skill again makes for a rather dumb mechanic. I've read that it's was part of his flavor of being speedy, but not only was he speedy for himself, he also sped up his teammates, which was apparently unintended.

I think once they start actually doling out more balancing to other characters that need it, this game will become even more enjoyable than it is now. A game about strategy and making a great team shouldn't revolve around spamming as many times in a single turn the same ability, and killing the enemy team in 2-3 turns. When you go into a match, it should be a challenge.

So I'm happy to see that the money I have spent thus far on the game has been going toward a more balanced future for the game, and will continue to play and support them for as long as I enjoy the game.

You are completely missing the point.

I beg to differ. The title of the thread was Reactions to rag nerf, and he encouraged reactions being posted in the thread, with no limit to how the reactions were to be voiced. So by posting my reaction, and the reason why I feel that way, is still very much on point.

Unknown

Skyedyne wrote:

Kiamodo wrote:

Skyedyne wrote:

I think the nerf was needed. Being spammable without actually working towards recharging the skill again makes for a rather dumb mechanic. I've read that it's was part of his flavor of being speedy, but not only was he speedy for himself, he also sped up his teammates, which was apparently unintended.

I think once they start actually doling out more balancing to other characters that need it, this game will become even more enjoyable than it is now. A game about strategy and making a great team shouldn't revolve around spamming as many times in a single turn the same ability, and killing the enemy team in 2-3 turns. When you go into a match, it should be a challenge.

So I'm happy to see that the money I have spent thus far on the game has been going toward a more balanced future for the game, and will continue to play and support them for as long as I enjoy the game.

You are completely missing the point.

I beg to differ. The title of the thread was Reactions to rag nerf, and he encouraged reactions being posted in the thread, with no limit to how the reactions were to be voiced. So by posting my reaction, and the reason why I feel that way, is still very much on point.

By missing the point, I think Kiamodo is saying that most people are in agreement that Rag needed an adjustment. What people are complaining about is the extent of the adjustment. It's not that people are mad they lost their easy-win tank, it's that they are left with a husk of a character who's only advantage is annoyingly high health. If he was still able to compete, people wouldn't feel that they sunk a lot of ISO and HP (or time and possibly money) into a useless character. Investing in this game in its early stages is like investing in the stock market, you try to suss out the best characters to invest in. We put our faith in the developers to keep things relatively steady. This is like a group of people purposely causing a stock bubble to burst. Was he overinflated? Yes. Did the developers need burst his bubble? No. They could have eased him down but kept him in tact. They chose not to do this. That is the point of this disscussion.

I feel like an occupy wall street hippie now.

Unknown

Blue Shoes wrote:

By missing the point, I think Kiamodo is saying that most people are in agreement that Rag needed an adjustment. What people are complaining about is the extent of the adjustment. It's not that people are mad they lost their easy-win tank, it's that they are left with a husk of a character who's only advantage is annoyingly high health. If he was still able to compete, people wouldn't feel that they sunk a lot of ISO and HP (or time and possibly money) into a useless character. Investing in this game in its early stages is like investing in the stock market, you try to suss out the best characters to invest in. We put our faith in the developers to keep things relatively steady. This is like a group of people purposely causing a stock bubble to burst. Was he overinflated? Yes. Did the developers need burst his bubble? No. They could have eased him down but kept him in tact. They chose not to do this. That is the point of this disscussion.

I feel like an occupy wall street hippie now.

But thats not really the point. Skyedyne's not argueing with anyone, he was just stating his views. This isn't a thread discussing whether the nerf was warranted, whether it overreached, or anything else. It's just a place for people to voice their thoughts for the dev team to see, and Skyedyne did. There are countless other threads where your discussion is being held (though, not as much, 24h later).

Kiamodo

Blue Shoes wrote:

Skyedyne wrote:

Kiamodo wrote:

Skyedyne wrote:

I think the nerf was needed. Being spammable without actually working towards recharging the skill again makes for a rather dumb mechanic. I've read that it's was part of his flavor of being speedy, but not only was he speedy for himself, he also sped up his teammates, which was apparently unintended.

I think once they start actually doling out more balancing to other characters that need it, this game will become even more enjoyable than it is now. A game about strategy and making a great team shouldn't revolve around spamming as many times in a single turn the same ability, and killing the enemy team in 2-3 turns. When you go into a match, it should be a challenge.

So I'm happy to see that the money I have spent thus far on the game has been going toward a more balanced future for the game, and will continue to play and support them for as long as I enjoy the game.

You are completely missing the point.

I beg to differ. The title of the thread was Reactions to rag nerf, and he encouraged reactions being posted in the thread, with no limit to how the reactions were to be voiced. So by posting my reaction, and the reason why I feel that way, is still very much on point.

By missing the point, I think Kiamodo is saying that most people are in agreement that Rag needed an adjustment. What people are complaining about is the extent of the adjustment. It's not that people are mad they lost their easy-win tank, it's that they are left with a husk of a character who's only advantage is annoyingly high health. If he was still able to compete, people wouldn't feel that they sunk a lot of ISO and HP (or time and possibly money) into a useless character. Investing in this game in its early stages is like investing in the stock market, you try to suss out the best characters to invest in. We put our faith in the developers to keep things relatively steady. This is like a group of people purposely causing a stock bubble to burst. Was he overinflated? Yes. Did the developers need burst his bubble? No. They could have eased him down but kept him in tact. They chose not to do this. That is the point of this disscussion.

I feel like an occupy wall street hippie now.

This is what I was getting at. Thank you very much Blue Shoes. Sky dyne no offense intended. My remark could have been explained better!

Unknown

Kyosokun wrote:

Blue Shoes wrote:

By missing the point, I think Kiamodo is saying that most people are in agreement that Rag needed an adjustment. What people are complaining about is the extent of the adjustment. It's not that people are mad they lost their easy-win tank, it's that they are left with a husk of a character who's only advantage is annoyingly high health. If he was still able to compete, people wouldn't feel that they sunk a lot of ISO and HP (or time and possibly money) into a useless character. Investing in this game in its early stages is like investing in the stock market, you try to suss out the best characters to invest in. We put our faith in the developers to keep things relatively steady. This is like a group of people purposely causing a stock bubble to burst. Was he overinflated? Yes. Did the developers need burst his bubble? No. They could have eased him down but kept him in tact. They chose not to do this. That is the point of this disscussion.

I feel like an occupy wall street hippie now.

But thats not really the point. Skyedyne's not argueing with anyone, he was just stating his views. This isn't a thread discussing whether the nerf was warranted, whether it overreached, or anything else. It's just a place for people to voice their thoughts for the dev team to see, and Skyedyne did. There are countless other threads where your discussion is being held (though, not as much, 24h later).

Correct, he was stating his views, which were perfectly valid. I was stating my views, which I think were equally valid. Kiamodo was also stating his/her views as well in the form of a dialogue instead of discrete declarations of opinion. Kiamodo's views were that he was addressing only one portion of the nerf while a larger more critical portion was not really addressed. I just helped explain why that portion was more critical.

And yes, there are so many threads all saying a lot of the same thing, and my opinions are well represented. But this is a forum to state your reactions to the nerf. I don't think those other threads make my opinion unwelcome.

And I apologize for the pedantic tone of this post. I tend to sound snobbish when I'm defensive.

Unknown

No one should be surprised but.....could you make his red do more damage. I totally understand the nerf and the changes are reasonable but could you at least raise the damage levels slightly to make him useful still and everyone happy.

Unknown

Wellp, it happened.

BEFORE

Ragnarok's Thunderclap ability @Level 1:
• Did 50 (effective level 6) damage*
• Converted 5 random basic colored tiles to Green
• Cost 6 AP
*Note that you never see Ragnarok do effective level 6 damage in game, as he is never actually at that level. We use it as a standardized baseline for ability/character balancing.

Upgrade path:
• Each upgrade reduced cost by 1 AP.
• Fully upgraded, the ability cost 2 AP.

AFTER

Ragnarok's Thunderclap ability @Level 1:
• Does 30 (effective level 6) damage
• Converts 2 random basic colored tiles to Green
• Costs 6 AP
Upgrade path:
• Level 1: Converts 1 additional tile
• Level 2: Increases damage by 80%
• Level 3: Converts 1 additional tile
• Level 4: Increases damage by an additional 80% (of base damage)
• Fully upgraded, the ability converts 4 tiles and damage is increased to 260% of baseline.

So ultimately, Clap costs 4 more AP, converts 1 fewer tiles, and does a little over 150% of the original damage.

Personally, I have no Rag covers yet, and thus no dog in this hunt. The biggie seems to be the AP cost - this will now be a much slower skill. Basically half the DPM and 80% of the green feed. What do people think? Is Rag now a pretty average 3*? At least no one will need to rebuild him...

UPDATE: hrmph, nvm, just saw all the threads about it in the general forum >.>