PVP Supports: Feedback Thread

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  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,746 Chairperson of the Boards

    Is it really so difficult to imagine that there are players trying to compete who are bad at strategic manipulations of the board? Or are just very slow? Or that maybe they are fast, but they don't pay attention as they try to make matches as quickly as possible? Or they play boosted characters they assume must be the best but they are slow teams?

    If I wasn't active on the forums and talking to my alliance mates, I never would've figured out on my own that Emma/May nonsense. All of a sudden, my stud awesome team was getting crushed in the speed department, practically overnight.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,343 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Borstock said:
    Is it really so difficult to imagine that there are players trying to compete who are bad at strategic manipulations of the board? Or are just very slow? Or that maybe they are fast, but they don't pay attention as they try to make matches as quickly as possible? Or they play boosted characters they assume must be the best but they are slow teams?

    If I wasn't active on the forums and talking to my alliance mates, I never would've figured out on my own that Emma/May nonsense. All of a sudden, my stud awesome team was getting crushed in the speed department, practically overnight.

    What and they can't improve with practice? And yet they still pour hundreds into a game they are not improving at? I don't even know what anyone is arguing now, this has become surreal!

  • WhiteBomber
    WhiteBomber Posts: 399 Mover and Shaker
    edited 16 July 2024, 20:36

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Borstock said:
    Is it really so difficult to imagine that there are players trying to compete who are bad at strategic manipulations of the board? Or are just very slow? Or that maybe they are fast, but they don't pay attention as they try to make matches as quickly as possible? Or they play boosted characters they assume must be the best but they are slow teams?

    If I wasn't active on the forums and talking to my alliance mates, I never would've figured out on my own that Emma/May nonsense. All of a sudden, my stud awesome team was getting crushed in the speed department, practically overnight.

    What and they can't improve with practice? And yet they still pour hundreds into a game they are not improving at? I don't even know what anyone is arguing now, this has become surreal!

    I believe this was more of an "agreement" amongst everyone that (in this moment) supports are fun and a welcome addition to PVP, at least, that was my takeaway.

  • Godzillafan67
    Godzillafan67 Posts: 616 Critical Contributor

    I lost my baby, beefy Juggernaut on turn 0 (the AI's turn after I played but before it matched any candy pieces). What happened?



  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Godzillafan67 you're doing it wrong. The consensus here seems to be that you should always skip teams like this, regardless of point value, because they might present a challenge, or worse, cost you a health pack.

  • WhiteBomber
    WhiteBomber Posts: 399 Mover and Shaker
    edited 16 July 2024, 23:34

    @Godzillafan67 said:
    I lost my baby, beefy Juggernaut on turn 0 (the AI's turn after I played but before it matched any candy pieces). What happened?

    Judging by those green supports, they both provided, that fat Yellajacket threw his green turn 1 and it was buffed by the amazing Iron May.

    Some unfortunate luck. I like to imagine only one of those supports triggering every few matches and the AI throwing Ladypus terrible green instead.

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,022 Chairperson of the Boards

    @WhiteBomber said:

    @Godzillafan67 said:
    I lost my baby, beefy Juggernaut on turn 0 (the AI's turn after I played but before it matched any candy pieces). What happened?

    Judging by those green supports, they both provided, that fat Yellajacket threw his green turn 1 and it was buffed by the amazing Iron May.

    Some unfortunate luck. I like to imagine only one of those supports triggering every few matches and the AI throwing Ladypus terrible green instead.

    A lot of my matches in this PvP had exactly that dynamic. I'm sure their win rate was awesome but they were essentially cupcake matches because the AI would use Lady Ock's powers instead of Yellowjacket or Riri or Ronan. And since few had her champed or were using the loaner to save on healthpacks it was easy to leave her in the back and watch her drain away giant pools of green or blue AP. Made for a fun but quick climb.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daredevil217 said:
    I feel for the developers right now. Instead of wading through comments about why people like or dislike supports, they have to instead wade through people critiquing why other players like or dislike supports, which is super weird to me.

    I don’t care how “smart” someone is about matching 3, it is pure stupidity to think that you are actually going to convince someone that their way of playing the game isn’t fun for them.

    There are levels to this MPQ thing. Some enjoy roster building, some enjoy the gameplay, and some enjoy the game at a super secret higher level- which apparently is critiquing how others play the game on a message board by derailing every thread with the same tired arguments. higher still of course is Daz and Clem who are clearly playing their own game.

    And then there is slidecage who not only is playing his own game, but lives on his own dying planet with its own language, similar to ours but not quite the same. It’s a planet ravaged by painkillers and the only thing that can save it is 1a5 character offers for 20 dollars a pop.

    Wait, where was I? … thumbs down to supports in PVP.

    Couldn't agree more! I'm really tired of hearing the same arguments over and over -- about how playing the game competitively and wanting matches to last more than one second is "doing it wrong."

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Zarqa said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Couldn't agree more! I'm really tired of hearing the same arguments over and over -- about how playing the game competitively and wanting matches to last more than one second is "doing it wrong."

    Not every thought needs to be a post.

    I just like tweaking Mr. "I'll put you on ignore because your posts make me so angry, but then keep reading all of your posts and continue indirectly complaining about them anyway."

  • Godzillafan67
    Godzillafan67 Posts: 616 Critical Contributor
    edited 17 July 2024, 01:33

    @revskip said:

    @WhiteBomber said:

    @Godzillafan67 said:
    I lost my baby, beefy Juggernaut on turn 0 (the AI's turn after I played but before it matched any candy pieces). What happened?

    Judging by those green supports, they both provided, that fat Yellajacket threw his green turn 1 and it was buffed by the amazing Iron May.

    Some unfortunate luck. I like to imagine only one of those supports triggering every few matches and the AI throwing Ladypus terrible green instead.

    A lot of my matches in this PvP had exactly that dynamic. I'm sure their win rate was awesome but they were essentially cupcake matches because the AI would use Lady Ock's powers instead of Yellowjacket or Riri or Ronan. And since few had her champed or were using the loaner to save on healthpacks it was easy to leave her in the back and watch her drain away giant pools of green or blue AP. Made for a fun but quick climb.

    Thanks revskip. I had a sneaking suspicion that this was the case. I made my match, moved my attention to something else, and then came back to a dead Jugs.

    But yes, it has been fun to see Lady Ock toss out those tentacles on so many turns 0.

    Edit! My apologies to WhiteBomber who had deduced the issue. Thanks WB!

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,746 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Borstock said:
    Is it really so difficult to imagine that there are players trying to compete who are bad at strategic manipulations of the board? Or are just very slow? Or that maybe they are fast, but they don't pay attention as they try to make matches as quickly as possible? Or they play boosted characters they assume must be the best but they are slow teams?

    If I wasn't active on the forums and talking to my alliance mates, I never would've figured out on my own that Emma/May nonsense. All of a sudden, my stud awesome team was getting crushed in the speed department, practically overnight.

    What and they can't improve with practice? And yet they still pour hundreds into a game they are not improving at? I don't even know what anyone is arguing now, this has become surreal!

    I was only responding to the people who suggested there is no difference from player to player. I don't know why you needed to jump down my throat when it was clearly something being actively discussed.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,343 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Borstock said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Borstock said:
    Is it really so difficult to imagine that there are players trying to compete who are bad at strategic manipulations of the board? Or are just very slow? Or that maybe they are fast, but they don't pay attention as they try to make matches as quickly as possible? Or they play boosted characters they assume must be the best but they are slow teams?

    If I wasn't active on the forums and talking to my alliance mates, I never would've figured out on my own that Emma/May nonsense. All of a sudden, my stud awesome team was getting crushed in the speed department, practically overnight.

    What and they can't improve with practice? And yet they still pour hundreds into a game they are not improving at? I don't even know what anyone is arguing now, this has become surreal!

    I was only responding to the people who suggested there is no difference from player to player. I don't know why you needed to jump down my throat when it was clearly something being actively discussed.

    That wasn't intended as a jumping down throat type reply, my apologies if you thought that/felt attacked in anyway.

  • slidecage
    slidecage Posts: 3,491 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 17 July 2024, 20:45

    @Phumade said:

    @slidecage said:

    @Scofie said:
    I think there are 2 schools of thought here: Playing for placement and playing for wins. It seems the first group are in general, unhappy with supports in PvP and the second group are, generally happy, though this is based upon one event.

    My view - I was never competing for anything other than T25 at best or T50. For the Trenchcoat event I finished 51st after dropping 2 places in the last seconds. My score was not great, I got hit way more than before, but wins were easier and quicker. I played an extra few matches as a result.

    Overall it was pretty much the same for me. I can see the need for more shields now though and understand how it could be very expensive HP-wise. But the extra rewards from shielding aren't worth the HP to me, so I'll not bother much and I'll take the hits and lost points and hit back a bit more. It's added a bit more thinking and a bit more trying to beat the team in front of me rather just playing with my best characters.

    How is shields very expensive hp wise
    Unless I'm so out of it. Don't you just shield in the last 8 hours (most peoplle
    Unless you don't get hammered as I'm thinking

    How I play
    Day 1 normal
    Day 2 to end normal shield last 8 hours

    Now maybe I'm wrong but if you played day 1 say you got to 900 pts and shield for 8 hours. .. you come up for hits and play wouldn't you be hit faster then you could play

    meaning if say i was 1200 came out of shield. Played a game won 49 points I would think you get hit so many times it wouldn't be worth it

    Or do people play like crazy first day then just apply sheild after shield till the last 8 or less hours and play (then again I would think you be hit faster then you could play (

    Then again maybe I'm wrong and probably are im so wacked out sm at a target and should be working at a meijers

    Shield woulpressure.

    Simple thing just make two freaking things

    I don't give a **** about placement if I did buy a ficking shield

    Know for a fact if they remove supports in pvp I never give this company another penny (that is till the accend 1 star to 5 for 20 hit lol)

    It's not a want supports sick of the flip flopping they are doing

    Personally I love supports I can get my 12 win super fast and don't have to worry about playing

    People cry and **** they change it for them...

    Simple thing don't like it don't play it.. like it will really kill your team if the so call top 10. Don't take top 10 for one month

    People **** and say we don't like it but still play just so they can **** about it .. maybe if they saw the numbers drop they would see what people really think

  • Zarqa
    Zarqa Posts: 351 Mover and Shaker

    @Tac said:
    After putting a lot more time in pvp than I thought I would since I've been one of the early critics :

    The good :

    • I've never done so many 50+ wins so that's satisfying (But I'm 100% tying this to pizza dog giving guaranteed true heal for polaris. I saved so, so many hpack and if it wasn't for this, I'd probably stop at 25 like I usually do)

    • Support make it easier to "punch above your weight class" (eg, my top 3 average level 330 but I beat several 580 teams with little to no impact on my team's health)

    • The average match is a little less similar given "support meta" is not nearly as established, at least at my mmr. So it added some variety into the mix I can appreciate while grinding said 50+ wins

    The bad :

    • Supports seemingly not included in MMR calculation, that's kind of laughable when you see how impactful they are.

    • You better know every support by memory because the (lack of) UI / search function ... Hopefully that's fixed in august with the back end update.

    • Missing past community rewards (power stone in particular) makes you feel forever behind. Not saying it's necessarily true and it's the one OP gamechanger, but thinking it's forever lost and playing against you lowers morale anyway.

    • I've seen in my alliance network a dozen of younger accounts (Less than 1 year old) be overwhelmed. Either because it's too much to learn, or because it makes them spend even more health packs on pvp than before. Some lowered their goal from 25 to 16 wins. A couple others that used to do 50+ wins a day quit the game entirely over this, having only 30-40 2-3* supports when their average enemy has basically everything to 4 or 5*.

    • It's not worth trying to adapt, you just learn what supports you don't want to deal with and autoskip. Exemple for me include Leapfrog, eros bow on shang, power stone on spidy 1a5, ...

    The ugly :

    • Instant AP gains and turn 0 casts makes scoring incredibly annoying for placement. I was more often than not finishing in top25 for each event before supports. Now scoring slightly more on average, I barely reach top50 in most events, even dropped to t100 for some. There's an obvious ceiling I can't get past without ruining my MMR (leveling 450+ to be slower to kill) because I don't get attacked once or twice in the time it took me to get another win, but 3-8 times (by the same person). A win, ESPECIALLY IN PVP, should NOT be possible under 20 seconds.

    • The structure for support rewards need a overhaul in general and ways to catch up urgently. The system as it is right now just deepens the power gap between veterans and newer players. You have better supports, rewarding you with more support tokens / riso / shards than the others, increasing your lead further ... if it wasn't for my alliance putting a lot of efforts into heroic boss fights, I would probably just disregard supports and consider it pay-to-win garbage.

    Additional thoughts / ideas to explore that might mitigate the problems :

    • Ultimately if you wanna keep in the "making pvp faster" aspect, then consider giving up on the points system entirely (well, keep it hidden for matchmaking) and making ranking based on your amount of wins instead. Most will still stop at 25 or 50 wins, but enjoy that it's faster, and the hardcore pvp scene does a lot more than 50 per event anyway - everyone's happy (except maybe some in the wintrading circles) Also no more annoying popups because you got attacked. Only "downside" is it makes pvp shields useless and obselete, when its probably the main gold sink for endgame pvpers at the moment.

    • Put a (daily?) cap on how many times you can attack the same person per event

    • Make pvp SL8 and below without support, SL 9 & 10 with supports, so we have a choice + it doesn't **** over noobs and doesn't favor even more alt accounts purposefully stalling in SL6/7.

    • add more pve sources for support rewards / unlocks with shards. I don't really think it's worth mentionning the 3/80 beginner tokens in pve vaults when you'll make more shards from 7 wins in pvp.

    Pvp used to be the main way to somewhat "catch up with veterans" - farming a lot more ascended 1 & 2* than the average player, but given supports are that time gated, and essentially a representation of how much of a veteran you are, it's now much harder for them and I doubt it does well for new player retention - which is ultimately the lifeblood of every game.

    Great post! Thanks for writing that. I hadn’t thought of the no-supports-below-scl8, but I love it.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,656 Chairperson of the Boards

    I’m legit over it. I don’t even want to PvP anymore.
    You can’t click enemy supports to see what they are doing.
    Since supports have many different levels to them the powers they have are different.
    Maybe a 3 star support is inocuous but the 5 star version could be troublesome.
    I don’t want to spend 5 minutes before the match looking at the characters and the supports. Trying to figure out if I’m going to get blasted in the first couple turns. Or figure out if I will have the chance to make a move after turn 2.

    I legit want to get in and get out.

    I don’t want supports on offense or defense. Right now they make the game to troublesome.

    The idea was half baked from the beginning and everyone on the forums more or less said it was a bad idea.
    It’s here and guess what it’s a bad idea.

    I’m done with PvP for now. I don’t like the laugh and crush the opponent and I don’t like the unpredictability of the opponents supports I can’t even evaluate.

  • Nero
    Nero Posts: 35 Just Dropped In

    For me acces to supports in PVP is a good thing.
    =>Support have a use (i dont play history mod so...)
    =>Merging the supports with all the charachters is interresting and funny
    =>It's a help to conterbalance overpowered problematics teams
    =>Characters not as good as others are more usable.

    The things to improve:
    =>name and characteristics of the supports from the other team if i click on the picture. I want to know what i'm facing.
    =>Supports to reworks. Each support ned to have specific characteristics for VS mod, different from history mod.

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