PVP Supports: Feedback Thread

entrailbucket

And they say they love the game! I like to imagine these folks enjoying other treasured pastimes the same way.

Like, "I love fishing, it's my favorite hobby. They should make it as easy as possible, so I can catch 500 fish in 2 minutes then go home and eat them." You don't like fishing, you just like eating fish! Just go to the grocery store!

ArchusMonk

@entrailbucket said:
I can only talk about what I see. I'm basically never "punching up" and basically never have, in 10+ years. If I'm doing a 40 point-ish match I'm fighting a peer, if I'm doing a 5 point match I'm punching down.

When I'm fighting peers, the match-3 part of the game used to matter. I never lost much on offense (nobody did), but I had to match tiles and cast stuff (or match tiles and watch passives, or both) to win. Maybe there wasn't a ton of skill to it (although I think there is skill to doing it very fast), but it felt like my choices mattered. It felt like playing a game.

Supports have taken that away. Matches against peers are either won turn0, lost turn0, or won/lost based on random support effects triggering. Most of the time it feels like I go into a match and press an "I win" button, then it's over. It's BORING. It removes player agency.

A lot of players like this! Most of these folks just view the match-3 stuff as an unpleasant chore that they have to do to get rewards. But I think that instead of the devs making changes so players can avoid the match-3 part of the game and just instawin every fight, they should work to make the match-3 part of the game more fun, so players won't want to skip it. This feels like giving up, and I won't congratulate them for that.

Sorry this has been your experience. This season, the only PVP that had turn0 wins for me were the ones the first week where 1a5 Spiderman was boosted. Even then I sometimes had to make a match or 2 to win. Even in that Kang PVP, I had to match for a couple turns to win, but with that team, I knew I could not lose, so it was effectively the same thing. I don't mind matching 3. I actually like searching the board for a match that will produce a cascade or finding a match 4 or 5 that isn't obvious at first. I just don't like doing it every match, and my preference is to end a PVP match as quickly as possible.

entrailbucket

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:
I can only talk about what I see. I'm basically never "punching up" and basically never have, in 10+ years. If I'm doing a 40 point-ish match I'm fighting a peer, if I'm doing a 5 point match I'm punching down.

When I'm fighting peers, the match-3 part of the game used to matter. I never lost much on offense (nobody did), but I had to match tiles and cast stuff (or match tiles and watch passives, or both) to win. Maybe there wasn't a ton of skill to it (although I think there is skill to doing it very fast), but it felt like my choices mattered. It felt like playing a game.

Supports have taken that away. Matches against peers are either won turn0, lost turn0, or won/lost based on random support effects triggering. Most of the time it feels like I go into a match and press an "I win" button, then it's over. It's BORING. It removes player agency.

A lot of players like this! Most of these folks just view the match-3 stuff as an unpleasant chore that they have to do to get rewards. But I think that instead of the devs making changes so players can avoid the match-3 part of the game and just instawin every fight, they should work to make the match-3 part of the game more fun, so players won't want to skip it. This feels like giving up, and I won't congratulate them for that.

Sorry this has been your experience. This season, the only PVP that had turn0 wins for me were the ones the first week where 1a5 Spiderman was boosted. Even then I sometimes had to make a match or 2 to win. Even in that Kang PVP, I had to match for a couple turns to win, but with that team, I knew I could not lose, so it was effectively the same thing. I don't mind matching 3. I actually like searching the board for a match that will produce a cascade or finding a match 4 or 5 that isn't obvious at first. I just don't like doing it every match, and my preference is to end a PVP match as quickly as possible.

Why is it your preference to end a PvP match as soon as possible? Are you shield-hopping for placement?

ArchusMonk

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

entrailbucket

@ArchusMonk said:

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

DAZ0273

I dunno if this is down to Supports or not but it seems more and more people are just running Shang/Jane even though they have the boosted 5s champed at my MMR. Boosted YJ has absolutely wrecked in PvP for me this week but still people play Shang/Jane. I wouldn't be so shocked if these teams were 500+ but they aren't! The guy I just beat had YJ, Cyclops, Ronan all champed but benched.

Anyway one more week to find out what feedback the Devs may have taken and whether this stays like this. I think they would be wise to run a few different samples with some Supports disabled so the best fit for the game can be found - they must at least have the data to see which Supports are doing the heavy lifting. I hope next test isn't a full season though or maybe this time try it on Shield SIM or Lightning Rounds only.

Scofie

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

DAZ0273

Life can definitely impact things. I went from a 1 hour daily commute to a 3+ hour one and I don't have my account on my phone so those 2+ hours per day do not add to play time but subtract.

That said I always liked PvP and although I don't have turn 0 teams I would probably play them if I did until it got too tedious. PvE is the tedious part of this game so I am in favour of whatever keeps PvP alive.

entrailbucket

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

How much has the time investment changed? How long did matches take you before? Despite a ton of matches ending turn0, I'm spending roughly the same amount of time overall.

When I talked to some PvE players awhile ago about the rise of the turn0 meta, they talked about how it was better because it took less time, and spending less time was universally good.

That time change? Something like 20 minutes went down to 12 or 13. I realize that adds up over years, but are you really ever in a situation where you've got 12 minutes to play, but 20 minutes is just way too much?

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

How much has the time investment changed? How long did matches take you before? Despite a ton of matches ending turn0, I'm spending roughly the same amount of time overall.

When I talked to some PvE players awhile ago about the rise of the turn0 meta, they talked about how it was better because it took less time, and spending less time was universally good.

That time change? Something like 20 minutes went down to 12 or 13. I realize that adds up over years, but are you really ever in a situation where you've got 12 minutes to play, but 20 minutes is just way too much?

I think this depends on personal circumstances. I am at an age where my kids are 20 (soon to be 21) and 14 so they don't really need supervision (except when trying to kill each other). But you might think you have 20 minutes to do something and the younger kids completely ruin that so I can see how it can happen and how getting things done ASAP is a big QOL issue.

But I am still coming down probably on slowing these Supports down a bit or at least more testing.

Scofie

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

How much has the time investment changed? How long did matches take you before? Despite a ton of matches ending turn0, I'm spending roughly the same amount of time overall.

When I talked to some PvE players awhile ago about the rise of the turn0 meta, they talked about how it was better because it took less time, and spending less time was universally good.

That time change? Something like 20 minutes went down to 12 or 13. I realize that adds up over years, but are you really ever in a situation where you've got 12 minutes to play, but 20 minutes is just way too much?

I've not measured the difference in time to be honest. As you've alluded to above, you fill the time you've got. I tend to play PvE last thing at night and first thing in the morning. If I'm pushing for 25 wins on PvP, I get less sleep because I play PvE as late as possible and PvP before that. Last night, I stopped at 16 wins. Previously I'd have stopped at 7 or even not played at all, because if you start your climb with too little time there's no point going much beyond that.

I come back to the point about targets: if you want to score a high as possible, you play for an hour and get 25 wins. If you speed it up, you might get 30. If you're playing for wins, you achieve your target in 50 minutes rather than an hour. It's not because you want to play less, it's because wins 25 - 30 don't do much. I'm not prepared to have 10 mins less sleep for them.

entrailbucket

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

How much has the time investment changed? How long did matches take you before? Despite a ton of matches ending turn0, I'm spending roughly the same amount of time overall.

When I talked to some PvE players awhile ago about the rise of the turn0 meta, they talked about how it was better because it took less time, and spending less time was universally good.

That time change? Something like 20 minutes went down to 12 or 13. I realize that adds up over years, but are you really ever in a situation where you've got 12 minutes to play, but 20 minutes is just way too much?

I've not measured the difference in time to be honest. As you've alluded to above, you fill the time you've got. I tend to play PvE last thing at night and first thing in the morning. If I'm pushing for 25 wins on PvP, I get less sleep because I play PvE as late as possible and PvP before that. Last night, I stopped at 16 wins. Previously I'd have stopped at 7 or even not played at all, because if you start your climb with too little time there's no point going much beyond that.

I come back to the point about targets: if you want to score a high as possible, you play for an hour and get 25 wins. If you speed it up, you might get 30. If you're playing for wins, you achieve your target in 50 minutes rather than an hour. It's not because you want to play less, it's because wins 25 - 30 don't do much. I'm not prepared to have 10 mins less sleep for them.

I guess I come back to enjoying the time I spend playing the game. I like matching 3 and doing fights, and sometimes I don't have much time for it due to all of the factors you mentioned. But then I'll just spend the time I have matching 3 and doing fights and score whatever.

The way some folks talk makes MPQ sound like a chore or a box-checking exercise, and not a fun game. Do you look forward to playing the game, or dread it ("ugh, gotta play PvP tonight!")? Do you enjoy it, or just do it out of habit? Do you have other activities that you enjoy, but want to spend as little time on as possible?

ArchusMonk

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:
I can only talk about what I see. I'm basically never "punching up" and basically never have, in 10+ years. If I'm doing a 40 point-ish match I'm fighting a peer, if I'm doing a 5 point match I'm punching down.

When I'm fighting peers, the match-3 part of the game used to matter. I never lost much on offense (nobody did), but I had to match tiles and cast stuff (or match tiles and watch passives, or both) to win. Maybe there wasn't a ton of skill to it (although I think there is skill to doing it very fast), but it felt like my choices mattered. It felt like playing a game.

Supports have taken that away. Matches against peers are either won turn0, lost turn0, or won/lost based on random support effects triggering. Most of the time it feels like I go into a match and press an "I win" button, then it's over. It's BORING. It removes player agency.

A lot of players like this! Most of these folks just view the match-3 stuff as an unpleasant chore that they have to do to get rewards. But I think that instead of the devs making changes so players can avoid the match-3 part of the game and just instawin every fight, they should work to make the match-3 part of the game more fun, so players won't want to skip it. This feels like giving up, and I won't congratulate them for that.

Sorry this has been your experience. This season, the only PVP that had turn0 wins for me were the ones the first week where 1a5 Spiderman was boosted. Even then I sometimes had to make a match or 2 to win. Even in that Kang PVP, I had to match for a couple turns to win, but with that team, I knew I could not lose, so it was effectively the same thing. I don't mind matching 3. I actually like searching the board for a match that will produce a cascade or finding a match 4 or 5 that isn't obvious at first. I just don't like doing it every match, and my preference is to end a PVP match as quickly as possible.

Why is it your preference to end a PvP match as soon as possible? Are you shield-hopping for placement?

No. I don't shield hop. 99% of PVP's I shield out once with under 24 hours left once I reach my desired score or # of wins (usually 25 or 50 wins and 1000 ish points in slice 5).

I just prefer to spend as little time as possible playing the game. I feel like I spend enough time in aggregate through the day playing the game, so any individual part of it, I like to complete as quickly as possible. The irony of this is not lost on me, since I spend so much time and some money on this game to improve my roster which usually equates to an increased ability to SPEND LESS TIME PLAYING THIS GAME. I do sometimes wonder what the point is then.

To come back to PVP specifically, besides speeding up my matches, supports allowed me to attack a wider variety of teams AND I saw a wider variety of teams. Most of your anti-Jane posts center around her causing a loss of variety of teams in PVP. Supports have increased variety (in my experience), so I'm a little surprised you've come out so strongly against them. It does not seem to align with other posts you've made.

Also, you're implying there has been a team for every event this season where you can press a button and win (or something close). I'm curious what those teams have been because I haven't seen them and I certainly haven't used them. I have still had to make many matches during each battle to win. The closest thing I came to insta-win was during the first 2 events with boosted 1a5 Spidey. Even then I usually had to make at least one match to win. 90% of the time, I was able to win before the enemy got a turn. When the enemy did get a turn, I expected to lose, but I was able to win almost all of those matches though I did take pretty massive damage usually. The second closest I came was Kang-Colossus-Darveil, but that required 2 turns for a guaranteed win, but that had ZERO to do with supports. That team could crush without any supports. Borstock implied that 550 Riri and Jane with green supports was a powerhouse, and maybe it was on offense, but I hunted Riri teams during the last PVP with my 475 1a5 Hawkeye and 475 YJ because once Riri is down, that team is no threat. The only teams I skipped were teams that had YJ because I didn't want to risk the opposing YJ going invisible which could cause the match to last forever. I should also point out that I have a 545 Riri, 550 Jane, all the good green supports, AND my pick 3 PVP team is Riri, Jane, and Emma, yet I still chose to play 2x boosted 475 characters. What teams did you use for insta-win or were used against you for insta-win that ruined your PVP experience this season because I'd really like to try some of them out in the future?

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

How much has the time investment changed? How long did matches take you before? Despite a ton of matches ending turn0, I'm spending roughly the same amount of time overall.

When I talked to some PvE players awhile ago about the rise of the turn0 meta, they talked about how it was better because it took less time, and spending less time was universally good.

That time change? Something like 20 minutes went down to 12 or 13. I realize that adds up over years, but are you really ever in a situation where you've got 12 minutes to play, but 20 minutes is just way too much?

I've not measured the difference in time to be honest. As you've alluded to above, you fill the time you've got. I tend to play PvE last thing at night and first thing in the morning. If I'm pushing for 25 wins on PvP, I get less sleep because I play PvE as late as possible and PvP before that. Last night, I stopped at 16 wins. Previously I'd have stopped at 7 or even not played at all, because if you start your climb with too little time there's no point going much beyond that.

I come back to the point about targets: if you want to score a high as possible, you play for an hour and get 25 wins. If you speed it up, you might get 30. If you're playing for wins, you achieve your target in 50 minutes rather than an hour. It's not because you want to play less, it's because wins 25 - 30 don't do much. I'm not prepared to have 10 mins less sleep for them.

I guess I come back to enjoying the time I spend playing the game. I like matching 3 and doing fights, and sometimes I don't have much time for it due to all of the factors you mentioned. But then I'll just spend the time I have matching 3 and doing fights and score whatever.

The way some folks talk makes MPQ sound like a chore or a box-checking exercise, and not a fun game. Do you look forward to playing the game, or dread it ("ugh, gotta play PvP tonight!")? Do you enjoy it, or just do it out of habit? Do you have other activities that you enjoy, but want to spend as little time on as possible?

Can't it be both? We all know that players on this forum have sunk cost fallacy working against them but that doesn't mean wanting to play less means not enjoying less does it?

entrailbucket

@ArchusMonk your previous posts made it sound like you were a newish 4* player struggling to win PvP fights against teams that were many levels ahead of you.

Now you reveal that you're a 550 player with m'Thor fully maxed out? You are not "punching up" at anyone! You are the .0001%. Other players "punch up" at YOU. You can trivially win any fight against any team. I know this, because other players with your exact roster frequently destroy my 672s. They win these fights in a minute or two, regularly and consistently.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

How much has the time investment changed? How long did matches take you before? Despite a ton of matches ending turn0, I'm spending roughly the same amount of time overall.

When I talked to some PvE players awhile ago about the rise of the turn0 meta, they talked about how it was better because it took less time, and spending less time was universally good.

That time change? Something like 20 minutes went down to 12 or 13. I realize that adds up over years, but are you really ever in a situation where you've got 12 minutes to play, but 20 minutes is just way too much?

I've not measured the difference in time to be honest. As you've alluded to above, you fill the time you've got. I tend to play PvE last thing at night and first thing in the morning. If I'm pushing for 25 wins on PvP, I get less sleep because I play PvE as late as possible and PvP before that. Last night, I stopped at 16 wins. Previously I'd have stopped at 7 or even not played at all, because if you start your climb with too little time there's no point going much beyond that.

I come back to the point about targets: if you want to score a high as possible, you play for an hour and get 25 wins. If you speed it up, you might get 30. If you're playing for wins, you achieve your target in 50 minutes rather than an hour. It's not because you want to play less, it's because wins 25 - 30 don't do much. I'm not prepared to have 10 mins less sleep for them.

I guess I come back to enjoying the time I spend playing the game. I like matching 3 and doing fights, and sometimes I don't have much time for it due to all of the factors you mentioned. But then I'll just spend the time I have matching 3 and doing fights and score whatever.

The way some folks talk makes MPQ sound like a chore or a box-checking exercise, and not a fun game. Do you look forward to playing the game, or dread it ("ugh, gotta play PvP tonight!")? Do you enjoy it, or just do it out of habit? Do you have other activities that you enjoy, but want to spend as little time on as possible?

Can't it be both? We all know that players on this forum have sunk cost fallacy working against them but that doesn't mean wanting to play less means not enjoying less does it?

Can it? Can you think of other things you love doing, that you want to do for as little time as possible? Do you listen to music you love on fast forward? Do you purposely schedule your vacations for a shorter period of time, so you can get them over with?

ArchusMonk

@entrailbucket said:
@ArchusMonk your previous posts made it sound like you were a newish 4* player struggling to win PvP fights against teams that were many levels ahead of you.

Now you reveal that you're a 550 player with m'Thor fully maxed out? You are not "punching up" at anyone! You are the .0001%. Other players "punch up" at YOU. You can trivially win any fight against any team. I know this, because other players with your exact roster frequently destroy my 672s. They win these fights in a minute or two, regularly and consistently.

I didn’t imply anything, but if you consider us peers, then why is our experience so different? Why am I seeing a wider variety of potential opponents while you are not? Why am I not seeing the instant win teams that are seeing or using that are ruining PVP for you but improving it for me?

entrailbucket

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:
@ArchusMonk your previous posts made it sound like you were a newish 4* player struggling to win PvP fights against teams that were many levels ahead of you.

Now you reveal that you're a 550 player with m'Thor fully maxed out? You are not "punching up" at anyone! You are the .0001%. Other players "punch up" at YOU. You can trivially win any fight against any team. I know this, because other players with your exact roster frequently destroy my 672s. They win these fights in a minute or two, regularly and consistently.

I didn’t imply anything, but if you consider us peers, then why is our experience so different? Why am I seeing a wider variety of potential opponents while you are not? Why am I not seeing the instant win teams that are seeing or using that are ruining PVP for you but improving it for me?

No idea. What potential opponents are you seeing? It could be down to differences in time slice or start times.

More importantly, what fights are you skipping that you think you can't win? I'm not kidding -- I frequently run a million HP worth of boosted guys, and take defensive losses, fast, to unboosted 550 m'Thor/x.

ArchusMonk

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:
@ArchusMonk your previous posts made it sound like you were a newish 4* player struggling to win PvP fights against teams that were many levels ahead of you.

Now you reveal that you're a 550 player with m'Thor fully maxed out? You are not "punching up" at anyone! You are the .0001%. Other players "punch up" at YOU. You can trivially win any fight against any team. I know this, because other players with your exact roster frequently destroy my 672s. They win these fights in a minute or two, regularly and consistently.

I didn’t imply anything, but if you consider us peers, then why is our experience so different? Why am I seeing a wider variety of potential opponents while you are not? Why am I not seeing the instant win teams that are seeing or using that are ruining PVP for you but improving it for me?

No idea. What potential opponents are you seeing? It could be down to differences in time slice or start times.

More importantly, what fights are you skipping that you think you can't win? I'm not kidding -- I frequently run a million HP worth of boosted guys, and take defensive losses, fast, to unboosted 550 m'Thor/x.

It varies from event to event depending on what I’m running, but for the last PVP, I absolutely avoided any YJ for reasons I noted above. I generally tried to avoid double boosted unless they were the 1a5’s because of the large health pools. I targeted just about any pair of unboosted that I could find, and this PVP they were easy to find. To me, my baby boosted were faster to kill with than 550 Jane 545 Riri. I would have attacked non-YJ double boosted teams if I’d had to, but it never came to that, so I don’t know how quickly I could have beaten them.

entrailbucket

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:
@ArchusMonk your previous posts made it sound like you were a newish 4* player struggling to win PvP fights against teams that were many levels ahead of you.

Now you reveal that you're a 550 player with m'Thor fully maxed out? You are not "punching up" at anyone! You are the .0001%. Other players "punch up" at YOU. You can trivially win any fight against any team. I know this, because other players with your exact roster frequently destroy my 672s. They win these fights in a minute or two, regularly and consistently.

I didn’t imply anything, but if you consider us peers, then why is our experience so different? Why am I seeing a wider variety of potential opponents while you are not? Why am I not seeing the instant win teams that are seeing or using that are ruining PVP for you but improving it for me?

No idea. What potential opponents are you seeing? It could be down to differences in time slice or start times.

More importantly, what fights are you skipping that you think you can't win? I'm not kidding -- I frequently run a million HP worth of boosted guys, and take defensive losses, fast, to unboosted 550 m'Thor/x.

It varies from event to event depending on what I’m running, but for the last PVP, I absolutely avoided any YJ for reasons I noted above. I generally tried to avoid double boosted unless they were the 1a5’s because of the large health pools. I targeted just about any pair of unboosted that I could find, and this PVP they were easy to find. To me, my baby boosted were faster to kill with than 550 Jane 545 Riri. I would have attacked non-YJ double boosted teams if I’d had to, but it never came to that, so I don’t know how quickly I could have beaten them.

I play in s2, in the last two hours. I play there because it's exciting. Many of the other slices make it easy to score a ton without even trying. In s2, especially at the end, it tests your skill.

I ran lvl630 Yellowjacket and lvl645 Ronan last event (plus 3->5 Deadpool at 500+), and took double digit losses to unboosted m'Thor teams. I normally engage in multiple retal wars over the course of an event, and I can usually win a bit faster than those guys, but generally just 2 wins to their 1. I don't understand why you're avoiding fights you can win in less than 2 minutes -- other players with your roster are doing this trivially.

There is not now, and has never been (in 10+ years), a team I'd skip because I didn't think I could win. I take fights based on opponent points and opponent names. Most PvP players are playing the same way.