PVP Supports: Feedback Thread

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  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,134 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 9 July 2024, 02:08
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    @Tiger_Wong said:
    I like supports addiction to pvp. It’s more fun and I can use more different teams/characters with really strong supports.

    But a couple of them need to be tuned. For example, I put Implanted Bomb support on my 1AS5 Yelena Bolova and the synergy perk should “create 1 basic tile in the characters strongest color”.

    Problem is, sometimes it “creates” a purple tile to a purple tile. Or a black tile to a black tile. Yeah. That’s not a creation. And it happens a bit too often. Feels like 1 out of every 4 turns that phenomenon happens.

    Seconded. I have it on ascended 1 star juggernaut and it turns a green tile green or black to black so often, at first I didn't think the passive was working until I stated watching closely and seeing the effect happen on a green tile and it "changing" to green.

  • PorkBelly
    PorkBelly Posts: 530 Critical Contributor
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    As I’ve played additional events, I still dislike supports in PVP. They have rarely, if ever, changed the outcome of a match and they have slowed down play.

  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,761 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I've had a different experience with this weeks boost list. The 4* I have ascended and with supports I could have had a great time but Mthor kills the fun of using Peggy, also Ronan and Yellowjacket. She's far more fun killing than supports for me. Yes I have teams to beat her easily but she neuters the fun from so many good fun characters I've ended up using the same old teams regardless of boost list this week.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,293 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I ran green supports and put the purple infinity stone on my lvl600+ Yellowjacket.

    This just makes the game too easy. It's not fun winning with zero risk, and no -- you can't just decide to run no supports or non-optimal ones, because you'll get murdered on defense.

  • TheXMan
    TheXMan Posts: 164 Tile Toppler
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    Against Thor/Riri with green supports, you better win on your first turn

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,641 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 14 July 2024, 19:25
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    @TheXMan said:
    Against Thor/Riri with green supports, you better win on your first turn

    And that's dumb. The team I fought had multiple maxed infinity stones, maxed boosted Knull, and another character at around 620 or 630. I hit them like 4 times and all they got off was a few matches when I couldn't fire RiRi's green in one of the fights. My RiRi is only at 471.

    I benefitted tremendously from the supports, and even I think that's unfair.

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 982 Critical Contributor
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    @PorkBelly said:
    As I’ve played additional events, I still dislike supports in PVP. They have rarely, if ever, changed the outcome of a match and they have slowed down play.

    Weird, I like them for the exact reasons you dislike them. They aren't impossible to beat or really even that inconvenient to overcome but they stretch out matches making them a little more strategic to finish.

    They definitely make shield hopping a little more frantic too which is also a feature not a bug in my eyes.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 202 Tile Toppler
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    George Carlin had a great line about driving that is applicable to so many facets of life. "Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is an idiot and anyone driving faster than you is a maniac?"

    That's basically what's happening here. Everyone has their own idea about how long or difficult a PVP match should be, and if it's easier or shorter than that, it's "unfair" or "too easy", and if it's harder or longer than that, it's "too hard". I've read @Borstock and @entrailbucket 's comments about how supports have made PVP too easy. I respect those opinions, but I just don't agree with them. I've always disliked PVP. It's my least favorite part of the game. I went my first 9 months of playing without ever playing a single PVP match. Then, I only played the minimum to get the rewards I wanted. I almost quit the game at the beginning of the year largely because of my dislike of PVP. Supports in PVP have revived my interest in PVP, and significantly increased my engagement with PVP because it has speeded up most matches significantly, AND I have seen a much wider variety of opponents. I don't feel bad about this at all because I remember the seemingly infinite number of prior PVP events where I hit my head against a ceiling of the same teams that were unbeatable. I spent a long time in many a PVP dumping points so I could again find teams I could beat so that I could reach my win goal. Maybe you guys don't remember those times or maybe you enjoyed spending your game time doing that. I don't and didn't. I like looking at the boost list and my supports to try to find the most efficient combination of characters and supports to win as quickly and easily as possible, and then playing those teams to complete my goals as quickly as possible.

    The only time this season I felt a little uneasy about a team being "too good or easy" was during the Kang PVP with Darkveil and boosted Colossus. You could win every match in 2 rounds or less against almost any opponent because the other team would "Away" itself. However, that had zero to do with supports. Supports could make it slightly faster, but that team was just as effective with no supports at all.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,293 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 15 July 2024, 00:18
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    I can only talk about what I see. I'm basically never "punching up" and basically never have, in 10+ years. If I'm doing a 40 point-ish match I'm fighting a peer, if I'm doing a 5 point match I'm punching down.

    When I'm fighting peers, the match-3 part of the game used to matter. I never lost much on offense (nobody did), but I had to match tiles and cast stuff (or match tiles and watch passives, or both) to win. Maybe there wasn't a ton of skill to it (although I think there is skill to doing it very fast), but it felt like my choices mattered. It felt like playing a game.

    Supports have taken that away. Matches against peers are either won turn0, lost turn0, or won/lost based on random support effects triggering. Most of the time it feels like I go into a match and press an "I win" button, then it's over. It's BORING. It removes player agency.

    A lot of players like this! Most of these folks just view the match-3 stuff as an unpleasant chore that they have to do to get rewards. But I think that instead of the devs making changes so players can avoid the match-3 part of the game and just instawin every fight, they should work to make the match-3 part of the game more fun, so players won't want to skip it. This feels like giving up, and I won't congratulate them for that.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,641 Chairperson of the Boards
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    This whole thing started, I think, before the current devs took over. There were several character releases (looking at you iHulk) that devalued AP. It got way worse with Chasm for a while. We also had characters like Colossus and Switch, where it was basically match damage + the Witch's retaliation to win. Passive powerhouses became gods.

    Now, one could argue that supports place the value back on AP generation. But when the AP is FREE, is that really what's happening?

    I would argue that actually gaining AP, through making matches, to fire active powers is all but obsolete now. In my mThor+RiRi example, yes, I did have to make green matches, but only after I started with 2 completely free AI team stuns. There was nothing to it. Making green matches was important, but I had such a monumental head start that it was elementary.

    PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,293 Chairperson of the Boards
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    And they say they love the game! I like to imagine these folks enjoying other treasured pastimes the same way.

    Like, "I love fishing, it's my favorite hobby. They should make it as easy as possible, so I can catch 500 fish in 2 minutes then go home and eat them." You don't like fishing, you just like eating fish! Just go to the grocery store!

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 202 Tile Toppler
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    @entrailbucket said:
    I can only talk about what I see. I'm basically never "punching up" and basically never have, in 10+ years. If I'm doing a 40 point-ish match I'm fighting a peer, if I'm doing a 5 point match I'm punching down.

    When I'm fighting peers, the match-3 part of the game used to matter. I never lost much on offense (nobody did), but I had to match tiles and cast stuff (or match tiles and watch passives, or both) to win. Maybe there wasn't a ton of skill to it (although I think there is skill to doing it very fast), but it felt like my choices mattered. It felt like playing a game.

    Supports have taken that away. Matches against peers are either won turn0, lost turn0, or won/lost based on random support effects triggering. Most of the time it feels like I go into a match and press an "I win" button, then it's over. It's BORING. It removes player agency.

    A lot of players like this! Most of these folks just view the match-3 stuff as an unpleasant chore that they have to do to get rewards. But I think that instead of the devs making changes so players can avoid the match-3 part of the game and just instawin every fight, they should work to make the match-3 part of the game more fun, so players won't want to skip it. This feels like giving up, and I won't congratulate them for that.

    Sorry this has been your experience. This season, the only PVP that had turn0 wins for me were the ones the first week where 1a5 Spiderman was boosted. Even then I sometimes had to make a match or 2 to win. Even in that Kang PVP, I had to match for a couple turns to win, but with that team, I knew I could not lose, so it was effectively the same thing. I don't mind matching 3. I actually like searching the board for a match that will produce a cascade or finding a match 4 or 5 that isn't obvious at first. I just don't like doing it every match, and my preference is to end a PVP match as quickly as possible.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,293 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @ArchusMonk said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I can only talk about what I see. I'm basically never "punching up" and basically never have, in 10+ years. If I'm doing a 40 point-ish match I'm fighting a peer, if I'm doing a 5 point match I'm punching down.

    When I'm fighting peers, the match-3 part of the game used to matter. I never lost much on offense (nobody did), but I had to match tiles and cast stuff (or match tiles and watch passives, or both) to win. Maybe there wasn't a ton of skill to it (although I think there is skill to doing it very fast), but it felt like my choices mattered. It felt like playing a game.

    Supports have taken that away. Matches against peers are either won turn0, lost turn0, or won/lost based on random support effects triggering. Most of the time it feels like I go into a match and press an "I win" button, then it's over. It's BORING. It removes player agency.

    A lot of players like this! Most of these folks just view the match-3 stuff as an unpleasant chore that they have to do to get rewards. But I think that instead of the devs making changes so players can avoid the match-3 part of the game and just instawin every fight, they should work to make the match-3 part of the game more fun, so players won't want to skip it. This feels like giving up, and I won't congratulate them for that.

    Sorry this has been your experience. This season, the only PVP that had turn0 wins for me were the ones the first week where 1a5 Spiderman was boosted. Even then I sometimes had to make a match or 2 to win. Even in that Kang PVP, I had to match for a couple turns to win, but with that team, I knew I could not lose, so it was effectively the same thing. I don't mind matching 3. I actually like searching the board for a match that will produce a cascade or finding a match 4 or 5 that isn't obvious at first. I just don't like doing it every match, and my preference is to end a PVP match as quickly as possible.

    Why is it your preference to end a PvP match as soon as possible? Are you shield-hopping for placement?

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 202 Tile Toppler
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    @Borstock said:

    PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

    I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,293 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 15 July 2024, 02:03
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    @ArchusMonk said:

    @Borstock said:

    PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

    I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

    It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

    It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

    I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,915 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I dunno if this is down to Supports or not but it seems more and more people are just running Shang/Jane even though they have the boosted 5s champed at my MMR. Boosted YJ has absolutely wrecked in PvP for me this week but still people play Shang/Jane. I wouldn't be so shocked if these teams were 500+ but they aren't! The guy I just beat had YJ, Cyclops, Ronan all champed but benched.

    Anyway one more week to find out what feedback the Devs may have taken and whether this stays like this. I think they would be wise to run a few different samples with some Supports disabled so the best fit for the game can be found - they must at least have the data to see which Supports are doing the heavy lifting. I hope next test isn't a full season though or maybe this time try it on Shield SIM or Lightning Rounds only.

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,248 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 15 July 2024, 10:39
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    @entrailbucket said:

    @ArchusMonk said:

    @Borstock said:

    PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

    I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

    It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

    It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

    I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

    It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
    And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
    And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,915 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Life can definitely impact things. I went from a 1 hour daily commute to a 3+ hour one and I don't have my account on my phone so those 2+ hours per day do not add to play time but subtract.

    That said I always liked PvP and although I don't have turn 0 teams I would probably play them if I did until it got too tedious. PvE is the tedious part of this game so I am in favour of whatever keeps PvP alive.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,293 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Scofie said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @ArchusMonk said:

    @Borstock said:

    PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

    I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

    It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

    It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

    I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

    It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
    And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
    And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

    How much has the time investment changed? How long did matches take you before? Despite a ton of matches ending turn0, I'm spending roughly the same amount of time overall.

    When I talked to some PvE players awhile ago about the rise of the turn0 meta, they talked about how it was better because it took less time, and spending less time was universally good.

    That time change? Something like 20 minutes went down to 12 or 13. I realize that adds up over years, but are you really ever in a situation where you've got 12 minutes to play, but 20 minutes is just way too much?