PVP Supports: Feedback Thread

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,999 Chairperson of the Boards

    Playing the Psylocke event, most folks have started to figure out which supports are the most annoying on defense. Seeing tons of Fantasticar, Leapfrog, and especially Eros Arrow.

    It's always funny to see everyone complain about defensive troll teams while also running defensive troll teams. (Yes, yes, I know, if you're the only one not running the annoying defense team, then you'll get murdered, but it's still funny).

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 535 Critical Contributor

    @entrailbucket said:
    Supports on offense but not on defense will just trivialize matches. You'll win every fight in seconds.

    ... and also take more hits faster on defense, and from a wider variety of players, that would be able to punch up higher.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,999 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Playing the Psylocke event, most folks have started to figure out which supports are the most annoying on defense. Seeing tons of Fantasticar, Leapfrog, and especially Eros Arrow.

    Nah it's nothing to do with annoying on defence it's because pure AP supports in colwanda wasn't worth it. As soon as we get another boost set with big one hit or huge AOE damage I stop caring about defence. Also the 1* boosted was venom and he works better for match damage than trying to gather black or green for his AOE.

    What supports would you have suggested non defence for colwanda?

    I'm pretty sure we'll keep seeing the defensive ones. I saw a few of them before this boost list, I think it was just a matter of folks figuring out what's most annoying.

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,854 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think the defense supports will be used more on slower characters, the more offensive ones on faster ones.

    Lean into your strength.

    Also: it’s a bit surprising when people don’t even bother to put a support on their middle character (who is not a loaner).

  • WilliamK1983
    WilliamK1983 Posts: 1,015 Chairperson of the Boards

    Ran the entire psylocke event with her support-less. Made absolutely no difference for me. 1390 something points, t25 like always, and was at my usual percentages for def wins and losses while unshielded. Wasn't trying to run a comparison or anything, I just didn't want to to take the time to figure out what to put on her.

  • Seph1roth5
    Seph1roth5 Posts: 434 Mover and Shaker

    I think colossus/sw, and other boosted people, are going to be a giant pain regardless of supports lol.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,348 Chairperson of the Boards

    I didn't put a Support on Pyslocke as mine isn't ascended and the only power I would even bother firing was red and I just couldn't be arsed. It made no difference as the other team was usually dead from Colossus match damage (now he does have a Support on!). Will see how it goes otherwise.

  • plizard
    plizard Posts: 5 Just Dropped In

    Oh neat. I can one shot 672 ColWanda teams with good RNG, and cripple them at worst in Iron Patriot PvP. How is this good for the game again?

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,329 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I didn't put a Support on Pyslocke as mine isn't ascended and the only power I would even bother firing was red and I just couldn't be arsed. It made no difference as the other team was usually dead from Colossus match damage (now he does have a Support on!). Will see how it goes otherwise.

    I put Lockheed on psylocke so the fortify special tiles passive would fortify wandas repeater and the invisibility tiles the leap frog i have on Wanda makes.

  • Tiger_Wong
    Tiger_Wong Posts: 1,065 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 8 July 2024, 21:04

    I like supports addiction to pvp. It’s more fun and I can use more different teams/characters with really strong supports.

    But a couple of them need to be tuned. For example, I put Implanted Bomb support on my 1AS5 Yelena Bolova and the synergy perk should “create 1 basic tile in the characters strongest color”.

    Problem is, sometimes it “creates” a purple tile to a purple tile. Or a black tile to a black tile. Yeah. That’s not a creation. And it happens a bit too often. Feels like 1 out of every 4 turns that phenomenon happens.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,329 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 9 July 2024, 02:08

    @Tiger_Wong said:
    I like supports addiction to pvp. It’s more fun and I can use more different teams/characters with really strong supports.

    But a couple of them need to be tuned. For example, I put Implanted Bomb support on my 1AS5 Yelena Bolova and the synergy perk should “create 1 basic tile in the characters strongest color”.

    Problem is, sometimes it “creates” a purple tile to a purple tile. Or a black tile to a black tile. Yeah. That’s not a creation. And it happens a bit too often. Feels like 1 out of every 4 turns that phenomenon happens.

    Seconded. I have it on ascended 1 star juggernaut and it turns a green tile green or black to black so often, at first I didn't think the passive was working until I stated watching closely and seeing the effect happen on a green tile and it "changing" to green.

  • PorkBelly
    PorkBelly Posts: 535 Critical Contributor

    As I’ve played additional events, I still dislike supports in PVP. They have rarely, if ever, changed the outcome of a match and they have slowed down play.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,999 Chairperson of the Boards

    I ran green supports and put the purple infinity stone on my lvl600+ Yellowjacket.

    This just makes the game too easy. It's not fun winning with zero risk, and no -- you can't just decide to run no supports or non-optimal ones, because you'll get murdered on defense.

  • TheXMan
    TheXMan Posts: 188 Tile Toppler

    Against Thor/Riri with green supports, you better win on your first turn

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,746 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 14 July 2024, 19:25

    @TheXMan said:
    Against Thor/Riri with green supports, you better win on your first turn

    And that's dumb. The team I fought had multiple maxed infinity stones, maxed boosted Knull, and another character at around 620 or 630. I hit them like 4 times and all they got off was a few matches when I couldn't fire RiRi's green in one of the fights. My RiRi is only at 471.

    I benefitted tremendously from the supports, and even I think that's unfair.

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,024 Chairperson of the Boards

    @PorkBelly said:
    As I’ve played additional events, I still dislike supports in PVP. They have rarely, if ever, changed the outcome of a match and they have slowed down play.

    Weird, I like them for the exact reasons you dislike them. They aren't impossible to beat or really even that inconvenient to overcome but they stretch out matches making them a little more strategic to finish.

    They definitely make shield hopping a little more frantic too which is also a feature not a bug in my eyes.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler

    George Carlin had a great line about driving that is applicable to so many facets of life. "Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is an idiot and anyone driving faster than you is a maniac?"

    That's basically what's happening here. Everyone has their own idea about how long or difficult a PVP match should be, and if it's easier or shorter than that, it's "unfair" or "too easy", and if it's harder or longer than that, it's "too hard". I've read @Borstock and @entrailbucket 's comments about how supports have made PVP too easy. I respect those opinions, but I just don't agree with them. I've always disliked PVP. It's my least favorite part of the game. I went my first 9 months of playing without ever playing a single PVP match. Then, I only played the minimum to get the rewards I wanted. I almost quit the game at the beginning of the year largely because of my dislike of PVP. Supports in PVP have revived my interest in PVP, and significantly increased my engagement with PVP because it has speeded up most matches significantly, AND I have seen a much wider variety of opponents. I don't feel bad about this at all because I remember the seemingly infinite number of prior PVP events where I hit my head against a ceiling of the same teams that were unbeatable. I spent a long time in many a PVP dumping points so I could again find teams I could beat so that I could reach my win goal. Maybe you guys don't remember those times or maybe you enjoyed spending your game time doing that. I don't and didn't. I like looking at the boost list and my supports to try to find the most efficient combination of characters and supports to win as quickly and easily as possible, and then playing those teams to complete my goals as quickly as possible.

    The only time this season I felt a little uneasy about a team being "too good or easy" was during the Kang PVP with Darkveil and boosted Colossus. You could win every match in 2 rounds or less against almost any opponent because the other team would "Away" itself. However, that had zero to do with supports. Supports could make it slightly faster, but that team was just as effective with no supports at all.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,999 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 15 July 2024, 00:18

    I can only talk about what I see. I'm basically never "punching up" and basically never have, in 10+ years. If I'm doing a 40 point-ish match I'm fighting a peer, if I'm doing a 5 point match I'm punching down.

    When I'm fighting peers, the match-3 part of the game used to matter. I never lost much on offense (nobody did), but I had to match tiles and cast stuff (or match tiles and watch passives, or both) to win. Maybe there wasn't a ton of skill to it (although I think there is skill to doing it very fast), but it felt like my choices mattered. It felt like playing a game.

    Supports have taken that away. Matches against peers are either won turn0, lost turn0, or won/lost based on random support effects triggering. Most of the time it feels like I go into a match and press an "I win" button, then it's over. It's BORING. It removes player agency.

    A lot of players like this! Most of these folks just view the match-3 stuff as an unpleasant chore that they have to do to get rewards. But I think that instead of the devs making changes so players can avoid the match-3 part of the game and just instawin every fight, they should work to make the match-3 part of the game more fun, so players won't want to skip it. This feels like giving up, and I won't congratulate them for that.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,746 Chairperson of the Boards

    This whole thing started, I think, before the current devs took over. There were several character releases (looking at you iHulk) that devalued AP. It got way worse with Chasm for a while. We also had characters like Colossus and Switch, where it was basically match damage + the Witch's retaliation to win. Passive powerhouses became gods.

    Now, one could argue that supports place the value back on AP generation. But when the AP is FREE, is that really what's happening?

    I would argue that actually gaining AP, through making matches, to fire active powers is all but obsolete now. In my mThor+RiRi example, yes, I did have to make green matches, but only after I started with 2 completely free AI team stuns. There was nothing to it. Making green matches was important, but I had such a monumental head start that it was elementary.

    PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

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