PVP Supports: Feedback Thread

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,123 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BriMan2222 said:
    I just want to thank the devs for offering the leapfrog in the latest heroic boss event. Over night, I went from seeing a handful of people with a high level leap frog and a few others with a low level one to EVERY.SINGLE.PERSON.IS.RUNNING.LEAPFROG. and most are at rank 4 or 5.

    Now I have the fun of trying to stun the leapfrog holder or eliminate invis tiles and hope they aren't in impossible to reach spots for EVERY SINGLE PVP FIGHT.

    Have they said anywhere that they're looking at leapfrog?

    It does seem like the sort of thing they've taken action on before -- something that's very powerful defensively/slows the game down/is annoying to fight, and when those things do happen, players feel forced to use them (if everyone is using leapfrog and you're not, you'll get hit a bunch more).

    It'd also fit their (truly fantastic) pattern of waiting until basically everyone has invested in something before taking action.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,381 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @BriMan2222 said:
    I just want to thank the devs for offering the leapfrog in the latest heroic boss event. Over night, I went from seeing a handful of people with a high level leap frog and a few others with a low level one to EVERY.SINGLE.PERSON.IS.RUNNING.LEAPFROG. and most are at rank 4 or 5.

    Now I have the fun of trying to stun the leapfrog holder or eliminate invis tiles and hope they aren't in impossible to reach spots for EVERY SINGLE PVP FIGHT.

    Have they said anywhere that they're looking at leapfrog?

    It does seem like the sort of thing they've taken action on before -- something that's very powerful defensively/slows the game down/is annoying to fight, and when those things do happen, players feel forced to use them (if everyone is using leapfrog and you're not, you'll get hit a bunch more).

    It'd also fit their (truly fantastic) pattern of waiting until basically everyone has invested in something before taking action.

    If we are going by their past responses on nerfs, they will nerf leapfrog sometime in 2026 after everyone has is to rank 5 and it's been painfully obvious that it needs to be nerfed for at least a year prior.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,343 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 6 January 2025, 18:32

    I hope they don't. I rely heavily on my R5 Leapfrog (obtained by sharding from a R3).

    It's the only defense you have against supports that grant a bunch of starting AP followed by things like Headbutt from a boosted 5 star ascended Juggs on turn 1.

    It's far easier to deal with not triggering the 15% damage or removing some invisibility tiles than it is dealing with eating massive damage on turn 1/2 from starting AP supports.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,123 Chairperson of the Boards

    The other aspect of leapfrog/the current metagame that's interesting is that the m'Thor teams don't particularly want it on offense (she'll just blow up your own invisibility tiles) or care about fighting against it (same, in the other direction).

    So if there's a change made to her, that affects the whole thing too.

  • WhiteBomber
    WhiteBomber Posts: 449 Mover and Shaker

    @KGB said:
    It's the only defense you have against supports that grant a bunch of starting AP followed by things like Headbutt from a boosted 5 star ascended Juggs on turn 1.

    Just in case anyone takes that comment to heart, here are some other options to stop enemy turn 1 attacks from winning (or often doing much at all):

    • Darkveil and any hero in the game with Fantasticar will immediately shut this down.
    • Revive team combos like Hulks etc.
    • Turn 1 infinites like Agatha5 with Prof5 etc.
    • Turn 1 perma-stuns like Riri MThor (can be a gamble)
    • If you're lucky enough, ascended MBaku can eat a lot of damage and benefit from it (I recommend Arrow to also reduce a lot of that damage).

    That being said, Frog is still a good option, I just don't like the amount of damage you eat while using it, and then end up with the person you wanted tanking hiding.

    Not directed at any 1 person:
    I don't think I've lost a single match to Leapfrog since you first realize to play around it. The human player having more options (supports) always benefits the player over the AI having the same options, you just need to strategize more. I regularly leave my teams without it equipped in high level play and come out losing very little, or gaining.

    However, the Hulk3 tournament I left: Chasm - Chopper, Hulk - Frog, MBaku5 - Arrow, that was kinda dirty.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,123 Chairperson of the Boards

    I don't think leapfrog is causing a bunch of wipes, it's just an annoyance. There are ways to play around it, but I do feel like it's a requirement to run every event, and that's probably not good.

    Folks used the same "nobody wipes" argument about Chasm/Hulk, but losses weren't really the point there either...once you figured out how to fight them you weren't typically wiping, it just took forever and was annoying.

  • WhiteBomber
    WhiteBomber Posts: 449 Mover and Shaker

    I must have missed the comment where someone mentioned Leapfrog causing wipes, but just in case that was directed at me: I was noting the opposite; I don't believe Leapfrog to be any more a problem than Fantasticar, or Arrow, and I think KGB may have been saying something similar.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,123 Chairperson of the Boards

    @WhiteBomber said:

    @KGB said:
    It's the only defense you have against supports that grant a bunch of starting AP followed by things like Headbutt from a boosted 5 star ascended Juggs on turn 1.

    I don't think I've lost a single match to Leapfrog since you first realize to play around it.

    You said it didn't cause wipes, and my assumption was you saying that means it's ok.

    Folks didn't wipe to Chasm, and he wasn't ok.

  • WhiteBomber
    WhiteBomber Posts: 449 Mover and Shaker

    Oooooh, "wipe" is just "lose a fight" in this context?

    I can also add that, in my experience, Frog barely even slows the match down, but I am going in prepared to fight it. I also believe the old Chasm is a faaar stretch from Frog, so this comparison is strange to me. Chasm had minimal to no true counter Frog can easily be played around.

    I personally don't even mind if they nerf it, I don't use it as often, nor do I mind fighting it. I just like to share experience, as there are sometimes others out there who get help out of it, and in turn, perhaps won't need to call for nerfs as often.

    I'm not blind, I can see it's an excellent defensive support, but I would also say, that if people prepared for it, it's not as big of a deal. For me, this is no where near as big a problem as Chasm, Red, May and is less abundant.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,123 Chairperson of the Boards

    Fwiw I'm actually pretty convinced by KGB's argument here, but I'm not sure what it means.

    Leapfrog is likely holding back a number of other... unpleasant...strategies in PvP, relying on free AP supports for turn0/turn 1 wins. It's also unpleasant that leapfrog is responsible for that, but nerfing frog would likely result in a series of new problems that might be worse.

    This wouldn't be as big an issue if they could be trusted to make adjustments more than twice a year, but given that, I'm inclined to say we're better off with leapfrog.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,123 Chairperson of the Boards

    @WhiteBomber said:
    Oooooh, "wipe" is just "lose a fight" in this context?

    I can also add that, in my experience, Frog barely even slows the match down, but I am going in prepared to fight it. I also believe the old Chasm is a faaar stretch from Frog, so this comparison is strange to me. Chasm had minimal to no true counter Frog can easily be played around.

    I personally don't even mind if they nerf it, I don't use it as often, nor do I mind fighting it. I just like to share experience, as there are sometimes others out there who get help out of it, and in turn, perhaps won't need to call for nerfs as often.

    I'm not blind, I can see it's an excellent defensive support, but I would also say, that if people prepared for it, it's not as big of a deal. For me, this is no where near as big a problem as Chasm, Red, May and is less abundant.

    Yeah, wiping is losing on offense. I don't think I disagree with you there. I wasn't trying to compare Chasm to leapfrog, just saying his defenders used a similar argument.