mThor dillemma.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:
@DAZ0273 I really don't want them to cater to me. I'm using me as an example.

The problem is not that m'Thor beats my teams and I'm mad about it.

The problem is that m'Thor beats literally any team of any level. I think that's not terribly great for a game that has 300 characters or whatever and keeps releasing new ones. They can't tell us those new guys matter when one character can dominate like she does.

Deleteing mThor won't improve the dreck they've been releasing. Yes, 90% of everything is ****, and MPQ has been doing its part to demonstrate.

Continuing to let older releases (that once had utility!) moulder ... characters sliding from "use when boosted" down to "well, at least they have champ rewards ..." ... isn't helping the game's diversity, either.

T_REZ5000

I see a few people saying mthor is fine because she's not as difficult to beat on defense as Gambit, Chasm, and Bishop. And you are correct that she is nothing like those 3.

She's like Ragnarok before he was nerfed. Extremely long and annoying ai turns because of all the board shake that just leads to even more board shake. In his case the powers were way too cheap (2 and 3 ap iirc). In her case the charged tiles and passive make up for her reasonably priced powers.

entrailbucket

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
@DAZ0273 I really don't want them to cater to me. I'm using me as an example.

The problem is not that m'Thor beats my teams and I'm mad about it.

The problem is that m'Thor beats literally any team of any level. I think that's not terribly great for a game that has 300 characters or whatever and keeps releasing new ones. They can't tell us those new guys matter when one character can dominate like she does.

Deleteing mThor won't improve the dreck they've been releasing. Yes, 90% of everything is ****, and MPQ has been doing its part to demonstrate.

Continuing to let older releases (that once had utility!) moulder ... characters sliding from "use when boosted" down to "well, at least they have champ rewards ..." ... isn't helping the game's diversity, either.

I agree with this. But a big part of why these characters LOOK like dreck is that we're comparing them (rightly) to characters that are crazy strong. Is it faster/easier to knock down a few crazy strong guys, or buff 300 mediocre ones?

Mr_F

@Daredevil217

There is one but: There is little room to make 39 characters per year interesting and not affected by her kit at the same time. Most 2023-24 kits are either affected or neutral (not hurt and not benefiting) by mThor = easily beaten by her. Every time I read new characters's kit I ask myself one question: will mThor affect it? If yes, it's DOA kit. Sadly, cause I like Hex-23, Gabby and Martyr. And Hunter and Goose,

If all of new kits are defined by "is mThor going to defeat it easily or not?" then something is wrong. Her having or not exisiting solutions is irrelevant here. Before mThor meta, I was able to use many more characters up to ~1200 pts in simulator, where the meta wall has started. Now, it starts at 0 PTS and mThor makes what it is now. Every other character I see in simulator has either a :screaming" counter or is a "beaten by whatever". And my advise to new players: chase Polaris for 4* land BUT ascend her counter(s) before ascending her. After I ascend Wasp and Ant-Man, Shaw and Mantis (or Morbius) are next.

I said it many times: I want a character that screams "it's a mThor counter" as much as Quake did that for Juggs when i was in 4* land and Electro do it now for OR. A counter I can slap with whatever I want is needed for the other two. A 5* counter. Not Shaw, who is nice but 4*.

P.S. Shang does not get backlash cause of Colossus. And because, on his own AI can play him well enough.

entrailbucket

@Mr_F I'd add that Shang-Chi is very, very slow when not paired with m'Thor for free cascades.

KGB

@entrailbucket said:
@Mr_F I'd add that Shang-Chi is very, very slow when not paired with m'Thor for free cascades.

Unless paired with an unascended Valkyrie. She can generate 4 Red a turn for him chasing the bounty which lets him fire Red every turn.

KGB

Mr_F

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
@Mr_F I'd add that Shang-Chi is very, very slow when not paired with m'Thor for free cascades.

Unless paired with an unascended Valkyrie. She can generate 4 Red a turn for him chasing the bounty which lets him fire Red every turn.

KGB

And AI will fire Valk's red instead. Sure human will do ok. O use that strat for OR as i do not need to changa target

Daredevil217

@Mr_F said:

P.S. Shang does not get backlash cause of Colossus. And because, on his own AI can play him well enough.

That is my exact point. It’s not that “Thor is everywhere in PVP and it’s boring”. Because if that were the case people would want Shang nerfed too. But Shang isn’t played well by the AI, and as you said, has a counter. So people think he’s fine despite him being to punch up better than Thor and being just as present. Thor is good defensively (not Chasm/Bishop good, sure but better than a Shang or Kang) and so that small minority cry for her exclusively but say it’s not because she’s tough to face. I agree that a counter will help quell a lot of the crying.

KGB

@Mr_F said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
@Mr_F I'd add that Shang-Chi is very, very slow when not paired with m'Thor for free cascades.

Unless paired with an unascended Valkyrie. She can generate 4 Red a turn for him chasing the bounty which lets him fire Red every turn.

KGB

And AI will fire Valk's red instead. Sure human will do ok. O use that strat for OR as i do not need to changa target

I presume EB was talking about human usage when pairing MThor/Shang and it being slow. The AI doesn't know whether to properly use Shang or MThror's Red either as the AI won't build up the points for Shang and even if it did, could still accidentally use MThor's Red instead of his.

The only reason EB probably didn't mention Valk with Shang is that because at his PvP level where all characters are 550-672, an unascended Valk isn't feasible like it is for players at our level. She's one of the character's whose passive needs to be fixed.

KGB

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@Mr_F said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
@Mr_F I'd add that Shang-Chi is very, very slow when not paired with m'Thor for free cascades.

Unless paired with an unascended Valkyrie. She can generate 4 Red a turn for him chasing the bounty which lets him fire Red every turn.

KGB

And AI will fire Valk's red instead. Sure human will do ok. O use that strat for OR as i do not need to changa target

I presume EB was talking about human usage when pairing MThor/Shang and it being slow. The AI doesn't know whether to properly use Shang or MThror's Red either as the AI won't build up the points for Shang and even if it did, could still accidentally use MThor's Red instead of his.

The only reason EB probably didn't mention Valk with Shang is that because at his PvP level where all characters are 550-672, an unascended Valk isn't feasible like it is for players at our level. She's one of the character's whose passive needs to be fixed.

KGB

Yes, I was talking about human usage. m'Thor/Shang-Chi is fast, because she generates multiple cascades every turn, and feeds herself and him. Without her, he's very slow.

I really hardly ever see Valkyrie, even when I'm farming 5 point matches. Most of those are Polaris/m'Thor these days.

Mr_F

@Daredevil217 said:

@Mr_F said:

P.S. Shang does not get backlash cause of Colossus. And because, on his own AI can play him well enough.

That is my exact point. It’s not that “Thor is everywhere in PVP and it’s boring”. Because if that were the case people would want Shang nerfed too. But Shang isn’t played well by the AI, and as you said, has a counter. So people think he’s fine despite him being to punch up better than Thor and being just as present. Thor is good defensively (not Chasm/Bishop good, sure but better than a Shang or Kang) and so that small minority cry for her exclusively but say it’s not because she’s tough to face. I agree that a counter will help quell a lot of the crying.

I get the boring argument but it's an excuse to real one. It's hypocritical to say that she is "boring" while you mean "she annoying to face as she too often get me destroyed by her cascades and I can't use 99,99% of my roster against her!" or something like that. If she was just boring but has that her Collossus to SC or Electro to OR, then I think nobody would complan cause she was easily and reliably beaten.

I don't mind characters punching way to much up that much. Yep, they should not exixst but the damage is done. Toys were given to kids at playground and taking them out would cause massive outcry epidemic. What we need now is a counter that will punch Jane into face yet does not stop her presence. Like Colossus and Electro aren't doing it to SC and OR respectivetly.

BUT this thread got me to realise that If we don't get one, I would be be advocating "boosted 5*/Chasm" as a solution not for changes/nerf/whatever. My tests in pick 2 are showing that boosting is giving me what I want (variety and expansion of my roster usage). I play LR not too often so can't tell definetly that I am satisfied there but it seems like I would be. And for simulator, Chasm/Kang/Whatever seems to give me same: easy life and SOME variety. Still would like a better solution but won't complain. Sure, there is ascension And shaw and Polarises counters came to life by that to add even more options. They take time but so do many others things here.

I think that Ascended Shaw might be what we want. Something that will spread some time soon yet cause ya need to ascend him, he will not eliminate mThor from existence as It takes time to ascend him, even if it's just max-min.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
@DAZ0273 I really don't want them to cater to me. I'm using me as an example.

The problem is not that m'Thor beats my teams and I'm mad about it.

The problem is that m'Thor beats literally any team of any level. I think that's not terribly great for a game that has 300 characters or whatever and keeps releasing new ones. They can't tell us those new guys matter when one character can dominate like she does.

Deleteing mThor won't improve the dreck they've been releasing. Yes, 90% of everything is ****, and MPQ has been doing its part to demonstrate.

Continuing to let older releases (that once had utility!) moulder ... characters sliding from "use when boosted" down to "well, at least they have champ rewards ..." ... isn't helping the game's diversity, either.

I agree with this. But a big part of why these characters LOOK like dreck is that we're comparing them (rightly) to characters that are crazy strong. Is it faster/easier to knock down a few crazy strong guys, or buff 300 mediocre ones?

Reminds me of ... story time!

No ... they're dreck because they're dreck

Taking away the smoothest rolling wheel won't make the square wheels roll any smoother.

Stop cluttering up the game with quadrilateral "wheels" ... and put some air in the oldest, neglected tires.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:
@DAZ0273 I really don't want them to cater to me. I'm using me as an example.

The problem is not that m'Thor beats my teams and I'm mad about it.

The problem is that m'Thor beats literally any team of any level. I think that's not terribly great for a game that has 300 characters or whatever and keeps releasing new ones. They can't tell us those new guys matter when one character can dominate like she does.

Can you not say the same thing about Shang Chi? He can one-shot characters with ease, he has board manipulation and true healing. The only reason he gets a pass is that he is useless in the AI's hand but even then occasionally the AI can still go nuts with him and destroy you.

The two of them come as a pair but I don't think Shang Chi will disappear suddenly if Jane is nerfed.

EDIT: Ha ha - didn't see the Shang debate above before responding to this.

kuntilanak

Shang is the definite glass cannon. Very powerful, but also very fragile. I have no issues with him overpowering everything (well, almost ) but he only have active and passive (true heal) that tied to the active trigger. Where as MThor has passive that is easily triggers before turn starts AND after firing power, essentially triggering it twice per turn. And RNG usually sides with AI, so it gave the impression of OP MThor... AI use of Shang is almost always terrible, save a few fluke cases.

DAZ0273

The thing is though the argument about her being too powerful seems to be being applied also to when she is on OFFENCE as well as defence. If you play that pair anything like I do, Shang does the heavy lifting when it comes to KO'ing the other team although her Yellow can also be handy. On defence it is definitely the other way round but there are so many different ways to handle her. I climb off MT/SC a LOT so I would be a little sad to see my favourite snacks go bye bye but then there is always more candy in the store, just hopefully not Chasm flavoured!

Mr_F

@DAZ0273 said:
The thing is though the argument about her being too powerful seems to be being applied also to when she is on OFFENCE as well as defence. If you play that pair anything like I do, Shang does the heavy lifting when it comes to KO'ing the other team although her Yellow can also be handy. On defence it is definitely the other way round but there are so many different ways to handle her. I climb off MT/SC a LOT so I would be a little sad to see my favourite snacks go bye bye but then there is always more candy in the store, just hopefully not Chasm flavoured!

I don't wanna go it away. Especially the fact that current meta variety is bigger that I have ever seen. I just want a solution that makes my life on ofense (mThor defence) easier, while not depreciating mThor on defence (my ofence). In pick 2, Boosted 5* are doing great job for me. So I want something for simulator. We also have established that form It might be Chasm. Nor I like it, but still it's nice to insta know what to pick. And I like the fact that i use otherwise dead roster Gwenom thanks to that. Yes, I'm trying to find more pluses in the fact that I have to use Chasm. I thought i was freed from him.

Daredevil217

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
@DAZ0273 I really don't want them to cater to me. I'm using me as an example.

The problem is not that m'Thor beats my teams and I'm mad about it.

The problem is that m'Thor beats literally any team of any level. I think that's not terribly great for a game that has 300 characters or whatever and keeps releasing new ones. They can't tell us those new guys matter when one character can dominate like she does.

Can you not say the same thing about Shang Chi? He can one-shot characters with ease, he has board manipulation and true healing. The only reason he gets a pass is that he is useless in the AI's hand but even then occasionally the AI can still go nuts with him and destroy you.

The two of them come as a pair but I don't think Shang Chi will disappear suddenly if Jane is nerfed.

EDIT: Ha ha - didn't see the Shang debate above before responding to this.

This is exactly right lol. And also something we haven’t discussed is that these characters speed up the game. And I think players like that because there is just so much content and they want time to play it all. Nerfing Jane (or Shang, or Kang, or Okoye) also means slowing the game down potentially. And that’s not great. Nerfing Chasm meant speeding the game way up which is why I think his nerf cries were much louder.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
@DAZ0273 I really don't want them to cater to me. I'm using me as an example.

The problem is not that m'Thor beats my teams and I'm mad about it.

The problem is that m'Thor beats literally any team of any level. I think that's not terribly great for a game that has 300 characters or whatever and keeps releasing new ones. They can't tell us those new guys matter when one character can dominate like she does.

Can you not say the same thing about Shang Chi? He can one-shot characters with ease, he has board manipulation and true healing. The only reason he gets a pass is that he is useless in the AI's hand but even then occasionally the AI can still go nuts with him and destroy you.

The two of them come as a pair but I don't think Shang Chi will disappear suddenly if Jane is nerfed.

EDIT: Ha ha - didn't see the Shang debate above before responding to this.

I really don't have a problem with Shang-Chi because he's just so slow, unless you're some kind of match-3 savant (and in that case, you deserve to win quickly). Without her generating multiple free cascades for him every turn, winning fast with him takes a lot of skill. If she goes away, he'll still be around, but he'll be significantly less effective.

Also, I don't ONLY see her paired with him. What about Riri? That team goes infinite just as easily, and it's pretty common. I still see her paired with Chasm, too. She works with Colossus as well. What about the Polaris team, at lower tiers?

It's clear that she's the problematic one, which is why we're focused on her.

entrailbucket

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
@DAZ0273 I really don't want them to cater to me. I'm using me as an example.

The problem is not that m'Thor beats my teams and I'm mad about it.

The problem is that m'Thor beats literally any team of any level. I think that's not terribly great for a game that has 300 characters or whatever and keeps releasing new ones. They can't tell us those new guys matter when one character can dominate like she does.

Deleteing mThor won't improve the dreck they've been releasing. Yes, 90% of everything is ****, and MPQ has been doing its part to demonstrate.

Continuing to let older releases (that once had utility!) moulder ... characters sliding from "use when boosted" down to "well, at least they have champ rewards ..." ... isn't helping the game's diversity, either.

I agree with this. But a big part of why these characters LOOK like dreck is that we're comparing them (rightly) to characters that are crazy strong. Is it faster/easier to knock down a few crazy strong guys, or buff 300 mediocre ones?

Reminds me of ... story time!

No ... they're dreck because they're dreck

Taking away the smoothest rolling wheel won't make the square wheels roll any smoother.

Stop cluttering up the game with quadrilateral "wheels" ... and put some air in the oldest, neglected tires.

Yes, it does. None of these characters exist in a vacuum. You can't evaluate them objectively, you can only judge them against each other.

When the 5* tier was relatively new, we all used OML/Phoenix for everything, and they were great. Over time, the tier passed them by. Were they objectively "dreck" back then, even though they were the best in the game? No. They only started looking bad when their power level decreased, relative to everybody else.

If m'Thor didn't exist, or was weaker, everyone else looks better.

DAZ0273

What is the "m'Thor" thing about anyway? I guess this is a line nickname thing or something? It is sort of really annoying to me for some reason, lol!