mThor dillemma.

BriMan2222

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

I can beat absolutely any team with any supports in pvp without fail with my lvl 300 multiple man and 466 ascended coulson. So multiple man is 372 levels better than every other character in the game.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

You lost FIFTY matches today???

How many thousands of matches have you played since midnight ... ?

Crazy stuff happens, but even targeting mThor teams, and usually running a similar team as you describe, I only lose 1-3 times per pvp, and I play 50-150 matches, and, if/when I wipe, it's almost aways to Polaris / mThor.

entrailbucket

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

I can beat absolutely any team with any supports in pvp without fail with my lvl 300 multiple man and 466 ascended coulson. So multiple man is 372 levels better than every other character in the game.

How long does it take? (a long time) How badly do you get murdered on defense? (very badly murdered)

That's the difference.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

We all know that PvP favours the attacking player and punching up has been a thing all along. Jane is no worst than obnoxious stun lock teams and Polaris cheesing and it all nearly always gives an easy retal, I guess your problem is that YOU are the juicy retal if you are hitting low bar teams from above 1000. That then becomes an issue with the ELO scoring system but that is an entirely different thing.

Sure. Why doesn't anybody punch up with anything else?

Rather, if PvP favors the attacking player, and m'Thor is no stronger, faster, or more reliable than any number of other "punch up" teams, why don't I ever see any of those teams?

Probably for the same reason as everything in this game? Players chase certain characters and get them as high as they can? Hence lots of Jane and Shang at super high levels.

I get it now though and your issue is totally an ELO one - every time you hit somebody from above 1200 or more you are generally risking a massive retal loss points wise whereas the other player risks next to nothing in taking you on. I get that you should feel pretty invincible from a boosted 550 position so it must smart a LOT when that doesn't happen. I get it, I hate it when I get cheesed by some low mark team that would never beat me in a "live" fight but generally I don't risk the massive points loss you do when I revenge stomp coz I don't go that high. You don't play the co-operation game so you aren't getting a free and easy ride. Ok, I get it. I don't think nerfing Jane would solve this truth be told though.

I absolutely think it would, because she's exponentially stronger and faster on offense than any other character, not a total zero on defense, and enables a whole bunch of degenerate stuff. Who else would they be using?

It'd also destroy a bunch of folks who've gone all in, which is my absolute favorite thing in this game.

I don't care about being invincible. I don't even particularly want to be invincible -- that'd be boring. I want for my roster to mean something. I'll tip my hat to folks who can come up with an interesting way to beat me, and there are plenty of those ways.

I'm tired of losing to button mashers who've never had an original idea, and literally cannot play the game without overpowered autopilot characters that play the game for them.

entrailbucket

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

You lost FIFTY matches today???

How many thousands of matches have you played since midnight ... ?

Crazy stuff happens, but even targeting mThor teams, and usually running a similar team as you describe, I only lose 1-3 times per pvp, and I play 50-150 matches, and, if/when I wipe, it's almost aways to Polaris / mThor.

Defensive losses. I wiped once or twice!

BriMan2222

@entrailbucket said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

I can beat absolutely any team with any supports in pvp without fail with my lvl 300 multiple man and 466 ascended coulson. So multiple man is 372 levels better than every other character in the game.

How long does it take? (a long time) How badly do you get murdered on defense? (very badly murdered)

That's the difference.

Actually wrong on both accounts. It only takes 2 turns. Even with the count downs having to resolve on one of those turns i can shield hop easily, and although I may get a few more bounces on shield than my A team, it's not much more and there are some defensive wins. Mthor teams get murdered easily on retal too in my experience.

And in terms of speed, mthor/shang or mthor/Polaris used to be my punch up team but it was far less reliable and that took a long, long time. Even if I was winning the match, while I was waiting for mthors charged tiles to stop blowing up SO I CAN DO SOMETHING!!! I was getting hit once or twice.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

You lost FIFTY matches today???

How many thousands of matches have you played since midnight ... ?

Crazy stuff happens, but even targeting mThor teams, and usually running a similar team as you describe, I only lose 1-3 times per pvp, and I play 50-150 matches, and, if/when I wipe, it's almost aways to Polaris / mThor.

Defensive losses. I wiped once or twice!

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

We all know that PvP favours the attacking player and punching up has been a thing all along. Jane is no worst than obnoxious stun lock teams and Polaris cheesing and it all nearly always gives an easy retal, I guess your problem is that YOU are the juicy retal if you are hitting low bar teams from above 1000. That then becomes an issue with the ELO scoring system but that is an entirely different thing.

Sure. Why doesn't anybody punch up with anything else?

Rather, if PvP favors the attacking player, and m'Thor is no stronger, faster, or more reliable than any number of other "punch up" teams, why don't I ever see any of those teams?

Probably for the same reason as everything in this game? Players chase certain characters and get them as high as they can? Hence lots of Jane and Shang at super high levels.

I get it now though and your issue is totally an ELO one - every time you hit somebody from above 1200 or more you are generally risking a massive retal loss points wise whereas the other player risks next to nothing in taking you on. I get that you should feel pretty invincible from a boosted 550 position so it must smart a LOT when that doesn't happen. I get it, I hate it when I get cheesed by some low mark team that would never beat me in a "live" fight but generally I don't risk the massive points loss you do when I revenge stomp coz I don't go that high. You don't play the co-operation game so you aren't getting a free and easy ride. Ok, I get it. I don't think nerfing Jane would solve this truth be told though.

I absolutely think it would, because she's exponentially stronger and faster on offense than any other character, not a total zero on defense, and enables a whole bunch of degenerate stuff. Who else would they be using?

It'd also destroy a bunch of folks who've gone all in, which is my absolute favorite thing in this game.

I don't care about being invincible. I don't even particularly want to be invincible -- that'd be boring. I want for my roster to mean something. I'll tip my hat to folks who can come up with an interesting way to beat me, and there are plenty of those ways.

I'm tired of losing to button mashers who've never had an original idea, and literally cannot play the game without overpowered autopilot characters that play the game for them.

Ha ha, spite! Awesome! Well I at least finally understand you and don't believe that killing Jane will satisfy you if somebody else takes her place. Next will be Omega Red or one of the other 5s who will become prevalent at 550 sooner or later. All the while though as I said what you really hate is the ELO system which hems you in and punishes you.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

We all know that PvP favours the attacking player and punching up has been a thing all along. Jane is no worst than obnoxious stun lock teams and Polaris cheesing and it all nearly always gives an easy retal, I guess your problem is that YOU are the juicy retal if you are hitting low bar teams from above 1000. That then becomes an issue with the ELO scoring system but that is an entirely different thing.

Sure. Why doesn't anybody punch up with anything else?

Rather, if PvP favors the attacking player, and m'Thor is no stronger, faster, or more reliable than any number of other "punch up" teams, why don't I ever see any of those teams?

Probably for the same reason as everything in this game? Players chase certain characters and get them as high as they can? Hence lots of Jane and Shang at super high levels.

I get it now though and your issue is totally an ELO one - every time you hit somebody from above 1200 or more you are generally risking a massive retal loss points wise whereas the other player risks next to nothing in taking you on. I get that you should feel pretty invincible from a boosted 550 position so it must smart a LOT when that doesn't happen. I get it, I hate it when I get cheesed by some low mark team that would never beat me in a "live" fight but generally I don't risk the massive points loss you do when I revenge stomp coz I don't go that high. You don't play the co-operation game so you aren't getting a free and easy ride. Ok, I get it. I don't think nerfing Jane would solve this truth be told though.

I absolutely think it would, because she's exponentially stronger and faster on offense than any other character, not a total zero on defense, and enables a whole bunch of degenerate stuff. Who else would they be using?

It'd also destroy a bunch of folks who've gone all in, which is my absolute favorite thing in this game.

I don't care about being invincible. I don't even particularly want to be invincible -- that'd be boring. I want for my roster to mean something. I'll tip my hat to folks who can come up with an interesting way to beat me, and there are plenty of those ways.

I'm tired of losing to button mashers who've never had an original idea, and literally cannot play the game without overpowered autopilot characters that play the game for them.

Ha ha, spite! Awesome! Well I at least finally understand you and don't believe that killing Jane will satisfy you if somebody else takes her place. Next will be Omega Red or one of the other 5s who will become prevalent at 550 sooner or later. All the while though as I said what you really hate is the ELO system which hems you in and punishes you.

I do think it'd probably be Omega Red, but I don't think he's nearly as problematic. He can't go infinite, and if he's not boosted, his AoE damage isn't really a big deal against 400-500k health pools.

Mr_F

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

We all know that PvP favours the attacking player and punching up has been a thing all along. Jane is no worst than obnoxious stun lock teams and Polaris cheesing and it all nearly always gives an easy retal, I guess your problem is that YOU are the juicy retal if you are hitting low bar teams from above 1000. That then becomes an issue with the ELO scoring system but that is an entirely different thing.

Sure. Why doesn't anybody punch up with anything else?

Rather, if PvP favors the attacking player, and m'Thor is no stronger, faster, or more reliable than any number of other "punch up" teams, why don't I ever see any of those teams?

Probably for the same reason as everything in this game? Players chase certain characters and get them as high as they can? Hence lots of Jane and Shang at super high levels.

I get it now though and your issue is totally an ELO one - every time you hit somebody from above 1200 or more you are generally risking a massive retal loss points wise whereas the other player risks next to nothing in taking you on. I get that you should feel pretty invincible from a boosted 550 position so it must smart a LOT when that doesn't happen. I get it, I hate it when I get cheesed by some low mark team that would never beat me in a "live" fight but generally I don't risk the massive points loss you do when I revenge stomp coz I don't go that high. You don't play the co-operation game so you aren't getting a free and easy ride. Ok, I get it. I don't think nerfing Jane would solve this truth be told though.

I absolutely think it would, because she's exponentially stronger and faster on offense than any other character, not a total zero on defense, and enables a whole bunch of degenerate stuff. Who else would they be using?

It'd also destroy a bunch of folks who've gone all in, which is my absolute favorite thing in this game.

I don't care about being invincible. I don't even particularly want to be invincible -- that'd be boring. I want for my roster to mean something. I'll tip my hat to folks who can come up with an interesting way to beat me, and there are plenty of those ways.

I'm tired of losing to button mashers who've never had an original idea, and literally cannot play the game without overpowered autopilot characters that play the game for them.

Ha ha, spite! Awesome! Well I at least finally understand you and don't believe that killing Jane will satisfy you if somebody else takes her place. Next will be Omega Red or one of the other 5s who will become prevalent at 550 sooner or later. All the while though as I said what you really hate is the ELO system which hems you in and punishes you.

I do think it'd probably be Omega Red, but I don't think he's nearly as problematic. He can't go infinite, and if he's not boosted, his AoE damage isn't really a big deal against 400-500k health pools.

And he already has working counters. Electro, Ascended Quake, Kitty, Goose, Spider-Girl... And few others.

entrailbucket

@Mr_F said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

We all know that PvP favours the attacking player and punching up has been a thing all along. Jane is no worst than obnoxious stun lock teams and Polaris cheesing and it all nearly always gives an easy retal, I guess your problem is that YOU are the juicy retal if you are hitting low bar teams from above 1000. That then becomes an issue with the ELO scoring system but that is an entirely different thing.

Sure. Why doesn't anybody punch up with anything else?

Rather, if PvP favors the attacking player, and m'Thor is no stronger, faster, or more reliable than any number of other "punch up" teams, why don't I ever see any of those teams?

Probably for the same reason as everything in this game? Players chase certain characters and get them as high as they can? Hence lots of Jane and Shang at super high levels.

I get it now though and your issue is totally an ELO one - every time you hit somebody from above 1200 or more you are generally risking a massive retal loss points wise whereas the other player risks next to nothing in taking you on. I get that you should feel pretty invincible from a boosted 550 position so it must smart a LOT when that doesn't happen. I get it, I hate it when I get cheesed by some low mark team that would never beat me in a "live" fight but generally I don't risk the massive points loss you do when I revenge stomp coz I don't go that high. You don't play the co-operation game so you aren't getting a free and easy ride. Ok, I get it. I don't think nerfing Jane would solve this truth be told though.

I absolutely think it would, because she's exponentially stronger and faster on offense than any other character, not a total zero on defense, and enables a whole bunch of degenerate stuff. Who else would they be using?

It'd also destroy a bunch of folks who've gone all in, which is my absolute favorite thing in this game.

I don't care about being invincible. I don't even particularly want to be invincible -- that'd be boring. I want for my roster to mean something. I'll tip my hat to folks who can come up with an interesting way to beat me, and there are plenty of those ways.

I'm tired of losing to button mashers who've never had an original idea, and literally cannot play the game without overpowered autopilot characters that play the game for them.

Ha ha, spite! Awesome! Well I at least finally understand you and don't believe that killing Jane will satisfy you if somebody else takes her place. Next will be Omega Red or one of the other 5s who will become prevalent at 550 sooner or later. All the while though as I said what you really hate is the ELO system which hems you in and punishes you.

I do think it'd probably be Omega Red, but I don't think he's nearly as problematic. He can't go infinite, and if he's not boosted, his AoE damage isn't really a big deal against 400-500k health pools.

And he already has working counters. Electro, Ascended Quake, Kitty, Goose, Spider-Girl... And few others.

Not just working counters, counters that work on defense!

entrailbucket

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

I can beat absolutely any team with any supports in pvp without fail with my lvl 300 multiple man and 466 ascended coulson. So multiple man is 372 levels better than every other character in the game.

How long does it take? (a long time) How badly do you get murdered on defense? (very badly murdered)

That's the difference.

Actually wrong on both accounts. It only takes 2 turns. Even with the count downs having to resolve on one of those turns i can shield hop easily, and although I may get a few more bounces on shield than my A team, it's not much more and there are some defensive wins. Mthor teams get murdered easily on retal too in my experience.

And in terms of speed, mthor/shang or mthor/Polaris used to be my punch up team but it was far less reliable and that took a long, long time. Even if I was winning the match, while I was waiting for mthors charged tiles to stop blowing up SO I CAN DO SOMETHING!!! I was getting hit once or twice.

Yeah...a team you're using for a onehop is not quite the same thing. Use that team to try to climb from 0 and see how you do -- m'Thor teams can do that.

BriMan2222

@entrailbucket said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

I can beat absolutely any team with any supports in pvp without fail with my lvl 300 multiple man and 466 ascended coulson. So multiple man is 372 levels better than every other character in the game.

How long does it take? (a long time) How badly do you get murdered on defense? (very badly murdered)

That's the difference.

Actually wrong on both accounts. It only takes 2 turns. Even with the count downs having to resolve on one of those turns i can shield hop easily, and although I may get a few more bounces on shield than my A team, it's not much more and there are some defensive wins. Mthor teams get murdered easily on retal too in my experience.

And in terms of speed, mthor/shang or mthor/Polaris used to be my punch up team but it was far less reliable and that took a long, long time. Even if I was winning the match, while I was waiting for mthors charged tiles to stop blowing up SO I CAN DO SOMETHING!!! I was getting hit once or twice.

Yeah...a team you're using for a onehop is not quite the same thing. Use that team to try to climb from 0 and see how you do -- m'Thor teams can do that.

I've got a buddy who climbs with that team in slice 2 and he does just fine. Mthor teams get crushed if they try to climb past like 800 points. I'm usually one of the ones doing the crushing.

revskip

She would be so easy to fix. Just remove the passive element of her blue. She would still hit hard, could still create cascades, still partner well with almost everyone.

She just wouldn't get board shake for free EVERY turn.

Timemachinego

@DAZ0273 said:
Her AP generation and ability to cause cascades are definitely top tier. These two make her a frustrating character to fight against because none of us like to wait for our turn.

Her blow up special tiles power means she can be a liability on your own team and makes her vulnerable to the likes of DP4 who can get her to help kill herself

Her red and yellow hit hard but red rakes time to reach top gear and yellow is random and doesn't always kill who you want.

Her charge tile creation is a double edged sword and can be used against her.

I wouldn't say her health is overly high compared to newer 5*.

She is Goddess of Thunder, she oughta be good!

I think this sums her up, really. Facing her, I can use her strengths against her most of the time. She also can only be ran well with a very select group of partners, so that limits what you have to do to respond to her. I do think we could use a 5* character who addresses her more directly (or even just another character like Col, for those that missed him) now, but she DOES have answers.

Timemachinego

@JoeHandle said:
You lost FIFTY matches today???

How many thousands of matches have you played since midnight ... ?

Crazy stuff happens, but even targeting mThor teams, and usually running a similar team as you describe, I only lose 1-3 times per pvp, and I play 50-150 matches, and, if/when I wipe, it's almost aways to Polaris / mThor.

I lost one match on my easy 25 win climb today and omg guys, it was mthor and shangchi! I should probably KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS FOR YEARS NOW. The guy that says he is in favor of teams being able to punch up is absolutely butthurt about the current best team for that. Unless we entirely kill the ability to punch up, some team is going to be doing that and you're going to see a lot of them in the queues (where you totally have the option and ability to punish them, as do all of us).

LennoxHC

Kang and Darkveil are my counter to mThor. Start with +2 teamup AP and +1 All AP, and you're ready to send Jane away. The duration of Darkveil's away ability is precisely set so you can't just zap them all away and win. But you just need to find a way to either down one of the other characters or use Kang's blue to send someone away manually.

And, most of the time, Kang will restore the teamup AP used to send folks away. I haven't figured out why the AP restoration sometimes doesn't work. My PVP losses vs mThor generally come when the AP restore doesn't fire and I don't get any available teamup matches.

In Shield SIM, adding Chasm really shuts mThor down. The stun at start prevents Jane from starting with any charged tiles on the board and Chasm's self harm ability will also trigger Darkveil's away ability.

KangVeil is so useful to punch up because Darkveil negates all the damage from that first big punch and sends the problem away for a couple of turns. It's not great defensively, but I'm mainly playing for wins. So yes, I get hammered for retals, but I can usually punch them back, helping me get the 25 or 50 wins more quickly.

Omega Red's AOE is the big bane to the KangVeil combo, and if I need to hit back at OR, I have to switch tools.

Mr_F

@LennoxHC TY. Will try that combo.