mThor dillemma.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Mr_F said:
The fact that somebody does not smell that something stinks does not it doesn't.

Or in MPQ words: I can and I do climb on mThor/SC. But the fact that I or anybody else can, does not mean they are not problematic. They are. You may not see that anymore cause you (and me) are past them. But believe me. They are.

I just did a quick check: how many of my 5* can that team easily defeat on defence (my ofense). 55+ So let say 50 - just maybe I did few mistakes here and there in my judgement.

Now... I do not see how any other combo I encounter can do that to my roster.

@BriMan2222
I'm talking about non boosted 5* situation. And ascension takes time. Even max min. It can not be answer to every 5* problem we have or will have.

The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

Ehhhh sorta. Some folks will always settle on the "best" team and run that in everything forever.

There's no rule that the best team has to be like 200 levels better than everybody else, though.

I think that might be a slight exaggeration...

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

But yeah, probably. The point stands, though. There will always be a best team, and a ton of players will always exclusively use the best team.

The issue is the gap between the best team and everybody else.

I don't have a 450 Jane to try so I can't verify either way but I'm pretty sure that just makes an easy retal anyway? We all get hit by cheesy teams, Polaris being one of the worst offenders. 3 Deadpool can cheese a win.

Uggggggggg what am I doing

The cheesy teams are really really terrible on defense and m'Thor isn't, at all.

If you don't know what you are doing I have no chance! You aren't giving me much hope about 550s though!

The game is exactly the same no matter what your roster looks like. They don't roll credits and show the ending cinematic when you get a guy to 550.

That's why I tell folks to enjoy the journey rather than rushing to the endgame. Getting to 550 just means all the same stuff you did before.

I mean that can't be true? You have a boosted 550 then PvE isn't easier? PvP is weird for sure from how you tell it but I guess when you are the best then you have to deal with the contenders?

PvE is pretty easy as it is, isn't it? Are you ever struggling to win fights? Sure, if you want to win brackets you've got to clear the 550 bar, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

That seems to be avoiding the question on the statement you made? But I am dragging you in on this so sorry about that as you wanted out.

You asked if PvE was easier, and it probably is a bit, but it's already pretty easy. I don't know if it'd be a noticeable difference for a roster like yours.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Mr_F said:
The fact that somebody does not smell that something stinks does not it doesn't.

Or in MPQ words: I can and I do climb on mThor/SC. But the fact that I or anybody else can, does not mean they are not problematic. They are. You may not see that anymore cause you (and me) are past them. But believe me. They are.

I just did a quick check: how many of my 5* can that team easily defeat on defence (my ofense). 55+ So let say 50 - just maybe I did few mistakes here and there in my judgement.

Now... I do not see how any other combo I encounter can do that to my roster.

@BriMan2222
I'm talking about non boosted 5* situation. And ascension takes time. Even max min. It can not be answer to every 5* problem we have or will have.

The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

Ehhhh sorta. Some folks will always settle on the "best" team and run that in everything forever.

There's no rule that the best team has to be like 200 levels better than everybody else, though.

I think that might be a slight exaggeration...

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

But yeah, probably. The point stands, though. There will always be a best team, and a ton of players will always exclusively use the best team.

The issue is the gap between the best team and everybody else.

I don't have a 450 Jane to try so I can't verify either way but I'm pretty sure that just makes an easy retal anyway? We all get hit by cheesy teams, Polaris being one of the worst offenders. 3 Deadpool can cheese a win.

Uggggggggg what am I doing

The cheesy teams are really really terrible on defense and m'Thor isn't, at all.

If you don't know what you are doing I have no chance! You aren't giving me much hope about 550s though!

The game is exactly the same no matter what your roster looks like. They don't roll credits and show the ending cinematic when you get a guy to 550.

That's why I tell folks to enjoy the journey rather than rushing to the endgame. Getting to 550 just means all the same stuff you did before.

I mean that can't be true? You have a boosted 550 then PvE isn't easier? PvP is weird for sure from how you tell it but I guess when you are the best then you have to deal with the contenders?

PvE is pretty easy as it is, isn't it? Are you ever struggling to win fights? Sure, if you want to win brackets you've got to clear the 550 bar, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

That seems to be avoiding the question on the statement you made? But I am dragging you in on this so sorry about that as you wanted out.

You asked if PvE was easier, and it probably is a bit, but it's already pretty easy. I don't know if it'd be a noticeable difference for a roster like yours.

So is there any point going to 550 then?

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Mr_F said:
The fact that somebody does not smell that something stinks does not it doesn't.

Or in MPQ words: I can and I do climb on mThor/SC. But the fact that I or anybody else can, does not mean they are not problematic. They are. You may not see that anymore cause you (and me) are past them. But believe me. They are.

I just did a quick check: how many of my 5* can that team easily defeat on defence (my ofense). 55+ So let say 50 - just maybe I did few mistakes here and there in my judgement.

Now... I do not see how any other combo I encounter can do that to my roster.

@BriMan2222
I'm talking about non boosted 5* situation. And ascension takes time. Even max min. It can not be answer to every 5* problem we have or will have.

The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

Ehhhh sorta. Some folks will always settle on the "best" team and run that in everything forever.

There's no rule that the best team has to be like 200 levels better than everybody else, though.

I think that might be a slight exaggeration...

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

But yeah, probably. The point stands, though. There will always be a best team, and a ton of players will always exclusively use the best team.

The issue is the gap between the best team and everybody else.

I don't have a 450 Jane to try so I can't verify either way but I'm pretty sure that just makes an easy retal anyway? We all get hit by cheesy teams, Polaris being one of the worst offenders. 3 Deadpool can cheese a win.

Uggggggggg what am I doing

The cheesy teams are really really terrible on defense and m'Thor isn't, at all.

If you don't know what you are doing I have no chance! You aren't giving me much hope about 550s though!

The game is exactly the same no matter what your roster looks like. They don't roll credits and show the ending cinematic when you get a guy to 550.

That's why I tell folks to enjoy the journey rather than rushing to the endgame. Getting to 550 just means all the same stuff you did before.

I mean that can't be true? You have a boosted 550 then PvE isn't easier? PvP is weird for sure from how you tell it but I guess when you are the best then you have to deal with the contenders?

PvE is pretty easy as it is, isn't it? Are you ever struggling to win fights? Sure, if you want to win brackets you've got to clear the 550 bar, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

That seems to be avoiding the question on the statement you made? But I am dragging you in on this so sorry about that as you wanted out.

You asked if PvE was easier, and it probably is a bit, but it's already pretty easy. I don't know if it'd be a noticeable difference for a roster like yours.

So is there any point going to 550 then?

If you want to be competitive and win stuff, for placement, it's basically a requirement.

If 550 is your goal in itself (my MPQ goal has always been "get every character to max level") then that's worthwhile by definition.

Otherwise? I'm struggling to come up with reasons.

Oh! If you want to harass and annoy other players with 550s, it's a bit easier when you have your own, matchmaking-wise (although there are plenty of ways around this, as discussed). That was my first motivation.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I dunno. I can see how this would be a problem, but it's likely a problem that very few here have.

Personally, I beat m'Thor by having all the boosted characters at 672 and all the best supports, and instantly murdering her turn0 before she has a chance to do anything. So "just build your roster" works, but... I'd say that's a bit of a long term solution.

I bet many others in your position don't have this problem because m'Thor is their highest level character, they've got no desire to ever use anyone else, and she's pretty good in the mirror match.

I do reject the idea that Electro is a decent counter, or the sort of counter they should be making. Electro is great against Omega Red, and pretty bad against literally anybody else. The problem there is that Omega Red is great against everybody except Electro -- in a game where resources are limited, why should I invest in a character who's useful in only one situation over a character who's useful in every situation?

... because it's an extremely common situation ... a SIMtuation, in particular!

Why wouldn't you just mirror him or race him down, rather than bringing somebody who slows him down but brings basically nothing else to the table? Investing in Electro means you aren't investing in someone who can do either of those things.

You do mirror him ... with Electro by his side. Take near zero damage.

Electro is also a great partner for IM35, CapFA, Hotpool (kinda), and ... mThor ... anytime they are fighting any AoE, esp. repetitive, passive AoE.

Goose actually does the same thing but better!

Anyway I'd still rather load up on offense, especially in a pick-3 situation like Sim. Dragging Electro around means a dead slot (and yes, there are some guys that can do stuff with the yellow AP but then I'm bringing two guys I didn't want to bring).

If so, then my copy of Goose is defective, very leaky. I better put in a ticket for a refund/replacement ...

Mr_F

@JoeHandle If i correctly inperpretiate, Goose supposedly is better cause she creates strike tiles and reduces incoming damage for herself which lead to faster killing Aunt May. With own OR added... it's even faster. Still, I personally will choose Francise over Tentacle Cats.

WilliamK1983

The nicknames we come up with for the characters is nothing short of amazing. Tentacle Cats, well done.

entrailbucket

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I dunno. I can see how this would be a problem, but it's likely a problem that very few here have.

Personally, I beat m'Thor by having all the boosted characters at 672 and all the best supports, and instantly murdering her turn0 before she has a chance to do anything. So "just build your roster" works, but... I'd say that's a bit of a long term solution.

I bet many others in your position don't have this problem because m'Thor is their highest level character, they've got no desire to ever use anyone else, and she's pretty good in the mirror match.

I do reject the idea that Electro is a decent counter, or the sort of counter they should be making. Electro is great against Omega Red, and pretty bad against literally anybody else. The problem there is that Omega Red is great against everybody except Electro -- in a game where resources are limited, why should I invest in a character who's useful in only one situation over a character who's useful in every situation?

... because it's an extremely common situation ... a SIMtuation, in particular!

Why wouldn't you just mirror him or race him down, rather than bringing somebody who slows him down but brings basically nothing else to the table? Investing in Electro means you aren't investing in someone who can do either of those things.

You do mirror him ... with Electro by his side. Take near zero damage.

Electro is also a great partner for IM35, CapFA, Hotpool (kinda), and ... mThor ... anytime they are fighting any AoE, esp. repetitive, passive AoE.

Goose actually does the same thing but better!

Anyway I'd still rather load up on offense, especially in a pick-3 situation like Sim. Dragging Electro around means a dead slot (and yes, there are some guys that can do stuff with the yellow AP but then I'm bringing two guys I didn't want to bring).

If so, then my copy of Goose is defective, very leaky. I better put in a ticket for a refund/replacement ...

Wait what?

Goose can't block the AoE damage for your other guys, but she's always in front and takes no damage. Also she passively drops a big pile of really strong strike tiles, that help you win the fight.

The best way to fight Omega Red is just to race him down.

Mr_F

@entrailbucket said:

Wait what?

Goose can't block the AoE damage for your other guys, but she's always in front and takes no damage. Also she passively drops a big pile of really strong strike tiles, that help you win the fight.

The best way to fight Omega Red is just to race him down.

Always depends on roster. If someone has for example level 510 Electro vs 454 Goose... Usually there is always at least 2 ways to crack the egg.

Let's back to the topic shall we? From general response I can see that majority consider mThor not a problem at all. Or at least not a problem worth dealing with. I, on contrare, am on the side of "she is too versitle" yet "don't nerf her cause of we don't know what devil will come after". I'd rather take doing nothing than risking worse.

I wish some devs could give us insight on some stats. Maybe I am really biased or exaggerate? Like I'm just unlucky minority or whatever.

DAZ0273

Her AP generation and ability to cause cascades are definitely top tier. These two make her a frustrating character to fight against because none of us like to wait for our turn.

Her blow up special tiles power means she can be a liability on your own team and makes her vulnerable to the likes of DP4 who can get her to help kill herself

Her red and yellow hit hard but red rakes time to reach top gear and yellow is random and doesn't always kill who you want.

Her charge tile creation is a double edged sword and can be used against her.

I wouldn't say her health is overly high compared to newer 5*.

She is Goddess of Thunder, she oughta be good!

JoeHandle

@Mr_F said:
Let's back to the topic shall we?

Nah, got laundry to fold, shopping to do, lasers to run ...

entrailbucket

Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

entrailbucket

It's actually pretty funny. Normally I'll find these people on off teams -- all kinds of stuff. I'll start going in on them, hit a few times, they'll try to retaliate and lose, then switch to some m'Thor team and immediately win every single fight they do.

Mr_F

@entrailbucket
That the type of stuff I'm talking about.

Also which Yelena? The Good Avengers Widow or Bad Avengers Widow?

entrailbucket

@Mr_F said:
@entrailbucket
That the type of stuff I'm talking about.

Also which Yelena? The Good Avengers Widow or Bad Avengers Widow?

The 1*, ascended to 5* and fully maxed out (wearing a 5* Thanos Copter, with a 5* Eros Arrow and Leapfrog on the team as well).

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

WilliamK1983

@entrailbucket said:
It's actually pretty funny. Normally I'll find these people on off teams -- all kinds of stuff. I'll start going in on them, hit a few times, they'll try to retaliate and lose, then switch to some m'Thor team and immediately win every single fight they do.

I will put myself into this category of player currently. Since champing everyone I've been trying my best to use the boosted characters for the events and not rely on old faithfuls as much. However, I am also trying for placement so I will relent to recoup any lost points. Also, a lot of my 5* are btwn 450 and 60 so when it comes time to climb, depending on the characters boosted, etc dictates what I do. My low lvl 5s can only hang for so long against 2 fully max boosted whoever with supports combos....forgettaboutit.

Guess what I'm saying is your always chasing something and its nice to have a do everything to help speed it along if needed.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

We all know that PvP favours the attacking player and punching up has been a thing all along. Jane is no worst than obnoxious stun lock teams and Polaris cheesing and it all nearly always gives an easy retal, I guess your problem is that YOU are the juicy retal if you are hitting low bar teams from above 1000. That then becomes an issue with the ELO scoring system but that is an entirely different thing.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

We all know that PvP favours the attacking player and punching up has been a thing all along. Jane is no worst than obnoxious stun lock teams and Polaris cheesing and it all nearly always gives an easy retal, I guess your problem is that YOU are the juicy retal if you are hitting low bar teams from above 1000. That then becomes an issue with the ELO scoring system but that is an entirely different thing.

Sure. Why doesn't anybody punch up with anything else?

Rather, if PvP favors the attacking player, and m'Thor is no stronger, faster, or more reliable than any number of other "punch up" teams, why don't I ever see any of those teams?

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Today in PvP I was running 672 Yelena/Juggernaut, with an optimized 5* support stack. Every single fight I lost (and I lost like 50 of them) was to 550 unboosted m'Thor/X. Generally it was her with either 1* or 4* Juggernaut, but there were a few Shang-Chis and some other odd partners.

Hang on though you said you were losing to 450 teams?!?!? VERY big difference.

Sometimes! Not today though.

Anyway, assume I'm lying about that -- that means m'Thor is only about 120 levels better than every other character.

We all know that PvP favours the attacking player and punching up has been a thing all along. Jane is no worst than obnoxious stun lock teams and Polaris cheesing and it all nearly always gives an easy retal, I guess your problem is that YOU are the juicy retal if you are hitting low bar teams from above 1000. That then becomes an issue with the ELO scoring system but that is an entirely different thing.

Sure. Why doesn't anybody punch up with anything else?

Rather, if PvP favors the attacking player, and m'Thor is no stronger, faster, or more reliable than any number of other "punch up" teams, why don't I ever see any of those teams?

Probably for the same reason as everything in this game? Players chase certain characters and get them as high as they can? Hence lots of Jane and Shang at super high levels.

I get it now though and your issue is totally an ELO one - every time you hit somebody from above 1200 or more you are generally risking a massive retal loss points wise whereas the other player risks next to nothing in taking you on. I get that you should feel pretty invincible from a boosted 550 position so it must smart a LOT when that doesn't happen. I get it, I hate it when I get cheesed by some low mark team that would never beat me in a "live" fight but generally I don't risk the massive points loss you do when I revenge stomp coz I don't go that high. You don't play the co-operation game so you aren't getting a free and easy ride. Ok, I get it. I don't think nerfing Jane would solve this truth be told though.