mThor dillemma.

pepitedechocolat

@Mr_F said:
@pepitedechocolat

1. mThor/SC can casually destroy health pools 3 times+ bigger than their.
2. I'm already seeing way too oftent hose two WAY above TOP LV of my roster, This will get even worse with time.
3. mThor/SC is good in PVP and PVE = they are universally versitile.
4. mThor is only 5* that makes 2/3+ of my 5* roster unusable. She is only character that requires for me a specific pair to be able to beat her instead of "anybody" or John Doe + whatever I want. any other 5* I see does not have this quality.
5. Nerf is bad idea here, considering how popular she is. I do not want Chasm treatment here, I want a solution on e level Colossus-> SC, Electro->OR. No Ascension required.

1 and 3 are true but unfair, as it is also true for many other pairs, could have cited kang/deathlock, brb/polaris, riri infinistun, yellowjacket infininvis SC with 1* venom ...
2. This is how the game is designed, I've been fighting 50-100 level above my roster in pvp forever.
4. This is an exageration. mthor is strong against tile spreader (25% of the roster?), and I prefer the evil mthor **** up tile spreader than tile spreader locking the game. you see mthor as an issue while actually she is a (maybe too good) solution against some chars.
5. you have a 4* hard counter already. U take for granted that mthor is hard to beat in PVP. In my experience she required a good support and her teammates have good supports to be an issue. In sim this is not the case.

Rejoinder

My biggest problem with MThor is that once the AI starts firing off her powers, my phone screen literally goes dark waiting for her to stop cascading. Even when it doesn't, I often lose track of whether or not it's my turn, since she makes match after match after match before properly taking her turn.

My second biggest problem is that she makes huge swaths of characters completely useless, since she is far too efficient at removing special tiles. Some characters can lean into that (like Kaine), but they're few and far between.

I don't think she's vastly powerful in terms of pure damage, but she drains all the fun out of PVP and disproportionately limits the number of viable teams in the game.

I'm honestly surprised she has gone this long without a significant nerf.

JoeHandle

"Bothered by mThor" is a phase in roster development. Keep building, you'll get over it. mThor is a speed bump.

Mr_F

To counter that, sir @pepitedechocolat :

1/3 Any of mentioned pairs are/can be terrible on defense (my offense) giving me many more option to defeat them. I just today casually did that to Deathlock/Kang with Ronan/Jessica. Or something like that. I do not memorize all of my fights. mThor/SC are exception to that.

And that is a cloue. You can't take anybody vs. mThor. How many options you have vs. Riri or Yellowjacket or Kang/Deathlock compared do mThor? Riri? I'll take Surfer, OR. Chasm. With whatever. Yellowjacket? "Everything" can work. Same for Kang/Deathlock. Good luck having same luck and WR vs mThor/SC (compared to above mentioned "way above punchers") with I dunno, Jeff, Elektra Ghostpool, Yellowjacket, Venomsaurus, Thanos, Jessica, Ronan...

2
As far as I know I should be matched based on average level of my top 3 characters. Which is 482. if so, I see way too many higher lv. roester than I think I should.

4
It is not. mThor does not counter only SAP (which includes CD, repetears) but also... active power users due tu her faster AP collecting. It is not uncommon for her to fire power or two before i fire one. On top of that, health difference. I just can't see being a viable option in many cases to pick even 70k vs 70k mThor. Not to mention lower healths. 110k mThor is no-no for most of my roster.

5
Which i explained why he is not good for me in the resucting post. I need (want?) counter at 5* land which does not requires me hard work of ascenion. Shaw is ok in pick 3. In pick 2... I find him lucklasting.

@JoeHandle

I have 63* 5 champions. I think every meta relevant 5* but Scarlet is included. I think I passed that point long ago. And I still consider mThor/SC to be a problem needed to be solved by devs not by developing my roster further.

DAZ0273

We must honestly be playing a different game coz I climb on Jane/Shang every PvP and rarely ever lose. I don't see why Deadpool, YJ, Ronan or Dino venom would be useless? Thanos and Jessica are dead old so have way out of date health. Jeff is just, well, useless. Just target Jane first with everything you can. The AI rarely uses Shang correctly so you normally have a bit of time before he can hurt you too much.

As for who you can get matched against depends on who is playing at what time. The AI does it's best to follow that rule but it has to work with what it has. There are a LOT of Jane/Shang teams out there, the AI can't do anything about that.

entrailbucket

Yeah, I dunno. I can see how this would be a problem, but it's likely a problem that very few here have.

Personally, I beat m'Thor by having all the boosted characters at 672 and all the best supports, and instantly murdering her turn0 before she has a chance to do anything. So "just build your roster" works, but... I'd say that's a bit of a long term solution.

I bet many others in your position don't have this problem because m'Thor is their highest level character, they've got no desire to ever use anyone else, and she's pretty good in the mirror match.

I do reject the idea that Electro is a decent counter, or the sort of counter they should be making. Electro is great against Omega Red, and pretty bad against literally anybody else. The problem there is that Omega Red is great against everybody except Electro -- in a game where resources are limited, why should I invest in a character who's useful in only one situation over a character who's useful in every situation?

BriMan2222

First, I'll repeat that p5 collosus and any boosted 5's kill her easily by using her charged tiles against her with big match damage.

New stuff: she's even easier now with ascension and supports. Ascended 4 star juggs, polaris with her own mthor partner, mbaku, ghost, loki gator, shaw.... there are so many ascended 4 stars that destroy her boosted or not and even better yet.... ascended 1 stars. Huge match damage ai high levels, spiderman wrecks Auth his purple. This week 1 star juggernaut plus implanted bomb, after a few turns his green wreaks havok, his match damage is insane, and his red does over half a million damage.

Maybe it's from being in slice 2, but I also absolutely never see her at the top end of pvp. Everybody in top 10 is running high level boosted characters. I almost never see mthor past like 700 points and on my climb before then she's easy fodder.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I dunno. I can see how this would be a problem, but it's likely a problem that very few here have.

Personally, I beat m'Thor by having all the boosted characters at 672 and all the best supports, and instantly murdering her turn0 before she has a chance to do anything. So "just build your roster" works, but... I'd say that's a bit of a long term solution.

I bet many others in your position don't have this problem because m'Thor is their highest level character, they've got no desire to ever use anyone else, and she's pretty good in the mirror match.

I do reject the idea that Electro is a decent counter, or the sort of counter they should be making. Electro is great against Omega Red, and pretty bad against literally anybody else. The problem there is that Omega Red is great against everybody except Electro -- in a game where resources are limited, why should I invest in a character who's useful in only one situation over a character who's useful in every situation?

... because it's an extremely common situation ... a SIMtuation, in particular!

entrailbucket

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I dunno. I can see how this would be a problem, but it's likely a problem that very few here have.

Personally, I beat m'Thor by having all the boosted characters at 672 and all the best supports, and instantly murdering her turn0 before she has a chance to do anything. So "just build your roster" works, but... I'd say that's a bit of a long term solution.

I bet many others in your position don't have this problem because m'Thor is their highest level character, they've got no desire to ever use anyone else, and she's pretty good in the mirror match.

I do reject the idea that Electro is a decent counter, or the sort of counter they should be making. Electro is great against Omega Red, and pretty bad against literally anybody else. The problem there is that Omega Red is great against everybody except Electro -- in a game where resources are limited, why should I invest in a character who's useful in only one situation over a character who's useful in every situation?

... because it's an extremely common situation ... a SIMtuation, in particular!

Why wouldn't you just mirror him or race him down, rather than bringing somebody who slows him down but brings basically nothing else to the table? Investing in Electro means you aren't investing in someone who can do either of those things.

Mr_F

@DAZ0273
The fact that somebody does not smell that something stinks does not it doesn't.

Or in MPQ words: I can and I do climb on mThor/SC. But the fact that I or anybody else can, does not mean they are not problematic. They are. You may not see that anymore cause you (and me) are past them. But believe me. They are.

I just did a quick check: how many of my 5* can that team easily defeat on defence (my ofense). 55+ So let say 50 - just maybe I did few mistakes here and there in my judgement.

Now... I do not see how any other combo I encounter can do that to my roster.

@BriMan2222
I'm talking about non boosted 5* situation. And ascension takes time. Even max min. It can not be answer to every 5* problem we have or will have.

DAZ0273

@Mr_F said:
The fact that somebody does not smell that something stinks does not it doesn't.

Or in MPQ words: I can and I do climb on mThor/SC. But the fact that I or anybody else can, does not mean they are not problematic. They are. You may not see that anymore cause you (and me) are past them. But believe me. They are.

I just did a quick check: how many of my 5* can that team easily defeat on defence (my ofense). 55+ So let say 50 - just maybe I did few mistakes here and there in my judgement.

Now... I do not see how any other combo I encounter can do that to my roster.

@BriMan2222
I'm talking about non boosted 5* situation. And ascension takes time. Even max min. It can not be answer to every 5* problem we have or will have.

The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@Mr_F said:
The fact that somebody does not smell that something stinks does not it doesn't.

Or in MPQ words: I can and I do climb on mThor/SC. But the fact that I or anybody else can, does not mean they are not problematic. They are. You may not see that anymore cause you (and me) are past them. But believe me. They are.

I just did a quick check: how many of my 5* can that team easily defeat on defence (my ofense). 55+ So let say 50 - just maybe I did few mistakes here and there in my judgement.

Now... I do not see how any other combo I encounter can do that to my roster.

@BriMan2222
I'm talking about non boosted 5* situation. And ascension takes time. Even max min. It can not be answer to every 5* problem we have or will have.

The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

Ehhhh sorta. Some folks will always settle on the "best" team and run that in everything forever.

There's no rule that the best team has to be like 200 levels better than everybody else, though.

pepitedechocolat

@Mr_F said:
To counter that, sir @pepitedechocolat :

1/3 Any of mentioned pairs are/can be terrible on defense (my offense) giving me many more option to defeat them. I just today casually did that to Deathlock/Kang with Ronan/Jessica. Or something like that. I do not memorize all of my fights. mThor/SC are exception to that.

And that is a cloue. You can't take anybody vs. mThor. How many options you have vs. Riri or Yellowjacket or Kang/Deathlock compared do mThor? Riri? I'll take Surfer, OR. Chasm. With whatever. Yellowjacket? "Everything" can work. Same for Kang/Deathlock. Good luck having same luck and WR vs mThor/SC (compared to above mentioned "way above punchers") with I dunno, Jeff, Elektra Ghostpool, Yellowjacket, Venomsaurus, Thanos, Jessica, Ronan...

2
As far as I know I should be matched based on average level of my top 3 characters. Which is 482. if so, I see way too many higher lv. roester than I think I should.

4
It is not. mThor does not counter only SAP (which includes CD, repetears) but also... active power users due tu her faster AP collecting. It is not uncommon for her to fire power or two before i fire one. On top of that, health difference. I just can't see being a viable option in many cases to pick even 70k vs 70k mThor. Not to mention lower healths. 110k mThor is no-no for most of my roster.

5
Which i explained why he is not good for me in the resucting post. I need (want?) counter at 5* land which does not requires me hard work of ascenion. Shaw is ok in pick 3. In pick 2... I find him lucklasting.

I have difficulties with the things you say because they are very different from my experience. I have to be more cautious facing BRB or yellowjacket than against mthor, which is mainly a damage check. Also I get more defensive win using mutant team or boosted teams.

noone is using mthor in current PVPs at my level, which I promptly interpret as her being vastly underpowered and needing a BUFF

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Mr_F said:
The fact that somebody does not smell that something stinks does not it doesn't.

Or in MPQ words: I can and I do climb on mThor/SC. But the fact that I or anybody else can, does not mean they are not problematic. They are. You may not see that anymore cause you (and me) are past them. But believe me. They are.

I just did a quick check: how many of my 5* can that team easily defeat on defence (my ofense). 55+ So let say 50 - just maybe I did few mistakes here and there in my judgement.

Now... I do not see how any other combo I encounter can do that to my roster.

@BriMan2222
I'm talking about non boosted 5* situation. And ascension takes time. Even max min. It can not be answer to every 5* problem we have or will have.

The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

Ehhhh sorta. Some folks will always settle on the "best" team and run that in everything forever.

There's no rule that the best team has to be like 200 levels better than everybody else, though.

I think that might be a slight exaggeration...

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Mr_F said:
The fact that somebody does not smell that something stinks does not it doesn't.

Or in MPQ words: I can and I do climb on mThor/SC. But the fact that I or anybody else can, does not mean they are not problematic. They are. You may not see that anymore cause you (and me) are past them. But believe me. They are.

I just did a quick check: how many of my 5* can that team easily defeat on defence (my ofense). 55+ So let say 50 - just maybe I did few mistakes here and there in my judgement.

Now... I do not see how any other combo I encounter can do that to my roster.

@BriMan2222
I'm talking about non boosted 5* situation. And ascension takes time. Even max min. It can not be answer to every 5* problem we have or will have.

The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

Ehhhh sorta. Some folks will always settle on the "best" team and run that in everything forever.

There's no rule that the best team has to be like 200 levels better than everybody else, though.

I think that might be a slight exaggeration...

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

But yeah, probably. The point stands, though. There will always be a best team, and a ton of players will always exclusively use the best team.

The issue is the gap between the best team and everybody else.

KGB

@DAZ0273 said:
The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

The real problem is healthpacks when you are facing her. If they would just do away with health packs (ie you win the match, all characters healed to full even if some are down, you lose/retreat then all your characters are downed) then facing her would be no different than facing anyone else. The biggest issue is that her teams collect WAY more AP than normal teams do due to the increased cascades from her passives. That in turn leads to eating more power damage (plus the match damage from the cascades).

As Mr F stated above, he can win but most times it costs 2-3 health packs to go again. That's not fun nor sustainable. If it cost no health packs to win, then she'd just be a minor annoyance.

KGB

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Mr_F said:
The fact that somebody does not smell that something stinks does not it doesn't.

Or in MPQ words: I can and I do climb on mThor/SC. But the fact that I or anybody else can, does not mean they are not problematic. They are. You may not see that anymore cause you (and me) are past them. But believe me. They are.

I just did a quick check: how many of my 5* can that team easily defeat on defence (my ofense). 55+ So let say 50 - just maybe I did few mistakes here and there in my judgement.

Now... I do not see how any other combo I encounter can do that to my roster.

@BriMan2222
I'm talking about non boosted 5* situation. And ascension takes time. Even max min. It can not be answer to every 5* problem we have or will have.

The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

Ehhhh sorta. Some folks will always settle on the "best" team and run that in everything forever.

There's no rule that the best team has to be like 200 levels better than everybody else, though.

I think that might be a slight exaggeration...

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

But yeah, probably. The point stands, though. There will always be a best team, and a ton of players will always exclusively use the best team.

The issue is the gap between the best team and everybody else.

I don't have a 450 Jane to try so I can't verify either way but I'm pretty sure that just makes an easy retal anyway? We all get hit by cheesy teams, Polaris being one of the worst offenders. 3 Deadpool can cheese a win.

entrailbucket

@Tony_Foot said:

@entrailbucket said:

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

With who? 450 Mthors are not beating my 672 teams trivially and I never beat them trivially when I had a 450. So much exaggeration in this thread, am I'm fully behind a thor nerf despite her being my 4th biggest character. Mainly for the other characters her mass tile removal makes almost useless.

450s beat my 672s, all the time.

How did I get sucked into another m'Thor thread? These never go anywhere or accomplish anything. Good luck, Mr F!

DAZ0273

@KGB said:

@DAZ0273 said:
The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

The real problem is healthpacks when you are facing her. If they would just do away with health packs (ie you win the match, all characters healed to full even if some are down, you lose/retreat then all your characters are downed) then facing her would be no different than facing anyone else. The biggest issue is that her teams collect WAY more AP than normal teams do due to the increased cascades from her passives. That in turn leads to eating more power damage (plus the match damage from the cascades).

As Mr F stated above, he can win but most times it costs 2-3 health packs to go again. That's not fun nor sustainable. If it cost no health packs to win, then she'd just be a minor annoyance.

KGB

Health pack usage has been part of this game since they were introduced. Fighting Gritty teams cost health packs. Fighting iHulk teams cost health packs. Fighting Omega teams cost health packs. The game was never designed so that you can fight 20 fights with never losing health. Why was OML nerfed? Play PvP, EXPECT TO USE HEALTH PACKS.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@entrailbucket said:

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

With who? 450 Mthors are not beating my 672 teams trivially and I never beat them trivially when I had a 450. So much exaggeration in this thread, am I'm fully behind a thor nerf despite her being my 4th biggest character. Mainly for the other characters her mass tile removal makes almost useless.

450s beat my 672s, all the time.

How did I get sucked into another m'Thor thread? These never go anywhere or accomplish anything. Good luck, Mr F!

How do they even see you though? I mean if your 672 teams are so easy to beat please line me up! My Jane is only 501 but that will wipe the floor with you by the sounds of it!