mThor dillemma.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
Has anyone ascended Cosmo yet? Help From Knowhere's passive seems like it should definitely work, but every time I've included my 4* on a counter team in pick 3 to see if it does something it always feels like she gets blasted by the yellow (only level 306, 18k hit points) because some other character on the opposing team matched a charge tile, and it seems like only one character at a time can be affected by it in a cascade scenario also.

I have Cosmo ascended but haven't used her yet. I don't think she's been boosted, and mine is like 450. Alligator Loki did work ok when boosted.

MPQ Cosmo is a good boy not girl!

Seph1roth5

Problem is, mthor is relatively easy to get for people in scl10, don't remember if you get enough LL/CP in scl9 to really save for a hoard. But you can fav her and be good. Ascended ANYone isn't remotely easy to get. Just because (and IF) an ascended person can possibly counter mthor, doesn't mean that's an actual option.

JoeHandle

A "dilemma" ... promising thread LOL

Weaken her a bit on defense and the complaints will melt away. For whatever reason when used by the AI mThor can do something players have always been able to do, but the AI has not. Take/make "extended" turns. Undermine that while the AI is wielding her, solved.

Her board shake targeting special tiles is also frustrating on defense, but also very useful on offense, so not a good tweak. If her "endless" turns on defense come to an end, her targeting of specials will also be mitigated.

ThaRoadWarrior

It really does seem that opposing thors have way more successful cascades than I ever do on offense, but I haven’t tried to quantify that. Just like how opposing teen jeans always seem to start with an available match five for you to make on turn 1.

entrailbucket

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
It really does seem that opposing thors have way more successful cascades than I ever do on offense, but I haven’t tried to quantify that. Just like how opposing teen jeans always seem to start with an available match five for you to make on turn 1.

There's a word for it. Some kind of something bias. I never remember megacascades that I hit, but I always remember it when the AI hits them.

LavaManLee

@entrailbucket said:

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
It really does seem that opposing thors have way more successful cascades than I ever do on offense, but I haven’t tried to quantify that. Just like how opposing teen jeans always seem to start with an available match five for you to make on turn 1.

There's a word for it. Some kind of something bias. I never remember megacascades that I hit, but I always remember it when the AI hits them.

Yep. Confirmation bias combined with recency bias. Confirmation bias is if you believe the AI has more cascades than you, you will believe it more and remember the ones you see and filter out the ones where you didn't have a cascade happens against you. Mixed with a little recency bias where you remember much more clearly what just happened versus matches that happened a week ago.

bluewolf

I think one difference between player and AI use of Thor depends in large part on her most common partner, Shang Chi. For me, when I'm using SC, I am always looking for those red and purple matches to keep building his combo points, and using red and purple to try to set those up or match more of them, etc. Thor is my backpocket option but she's not doing as much damage and her board shake can be chaotic, messing up matches, and often taking longer than SC's precise manipulation. So I'm picking SC first as much as possible.

The AI doesn't prioritize SC, and also doesn't know how to use him (randomly doing things) where Thor's stuff often just works because of the volume of shake.

And yeah, the AI will keep using powers; Thor being one of the few characters whose powers can chain into the exact same power being able to be used again due to a cascade and charged tiles being scattered around means she gets more moves than most.

I wonder if players prioritized Thor as much, if they would see more turns like the AI seems to get.

BriMan2222

Well, I decided to see how unstoppable mthor and shang are so I played them this pvp. My shang is lvl 537 and Thor 523. I wiped to an omega red okoye team once and a brb Polaris team once. I tested them against a team of 672 aunt may, 640 phyla-vel and 498 p5 Emma to see how easily they punch up. I fought them 7 times and won 3 of them.

I also brought plus all ap, plus blue/purple, and plus yellow/red boosts to stack the odds and still I only managed to win 3 and lose 4. How do I get thor to be unbeatable on offense. Does that unlock when I get her to 550?

Mr_F

@BriMan2222

You did at least 3 mistakes here.

1. tested one combo out of many I/we can see.
2. did not told us who was the 3rd character here
3. brought them against new character who wasn't there yet when the mThor discussions (PLURAR) has started and May team was your most represented enemy comp.

Anyway, the most common teams I see with mThor in Simulator are:

Ascended Polaris/BRB
Ascended Polaris/Ascended Rocket & Groot
Ascended Polaris/ Chasm
Kang/SC
Chasm/SC
Chasm/Kang
Ascended Polaris/Chasm
Riri/SC

There are other teams/charas I see occasionally - Mix of Immortal Team, iShe-Hulk, OR, Electro and sometimes 4Deadpool/ 5HE/Kang or ascended Deathlock/HighEvo/Kang.

Currently running some tests. I dont have Polaris ascended yet but Kang and Chasm are champed. So I will do some test with them and later with Riri and SC. Desptite my dislike for her and refusal to use her, It's necessary to prove my point. Will post result later.

kuntilanak

@BriMan2222 said:
Well, I decided to see how unstoppable mthor and shang are so I played them this pvp. My shang is lvl 537 and Thor 523. I wiped to an omega red okoye team once and a brb Polaris team once. I tested them against a team of 672 aunt may, 640 phyla-vel and 498 p5 Emma to see how easily they punch up. I fought them 7 times and won 3 of them.

I also brought plus all ap, plus blue/purple, and plus yellow/red boosts to stack the odds and still I only managed to win 3 and lose 4. How do I get thor to be unbeatable on offense. Does that unlock when I get her to 550?

I can relate to this. In PVP, I've almost never reap in any of the mThor advantages, save few times i almost win the match then the massive cascade delay the whole thing. That's why i only use her in PVE and only when I'm bored with my default teams. BUT fighting against her is a different story all together. RNG never favors me. Maybe i didn't sell my soul to the devil...

DAZ0273

The worst thing about playing MPQ is waiting for your turn to happen. There is absolutely nothing more muscle twitchingly polarising than watching the enemy Jane (or other characters who delay the players action) explode cascade after cascade firing powers left right and centre and feeling like you are being pummelled without any way to respond. It doesn't happen all the time but when it does I can see how it triggers the rage switch. When us players benefit from it though it just doesn't trigger the same way - it is almost like "Well we DESERVED that!"

BriMan2222

@Mr_F said:
@BriMan2222

You did at least 3 mistakes here.

1. tested one combo out of many I/we can see.
2. did not told us who was the 3rd character here
3. brought them against new character who wasn't there yet when the mThor discussions (PLURAR) has started and May team was your most represented enemy comp.

Anyway, the most common teams I see with mThor in Simulator are:

Ascended Polaris/BRB
Ascended Polaris/Ascended Rocket & Groot
Ascended Polaris/ Chasm
Kang/SC
Chasm/SC
Chasm/Kang
Ascended Polaris/Chasm
Riri/SC

There are other teams/charas I see occasionally - Mix of Immortal Team, iShe-Hulk, OR, Electro and sometimes 4Deadpool/ 5HE/Kang or ascended Deathlock/HighEvo/Kang.

Currently running some tests. I dont have Polaris ascended yet but Kang and Chasm are champed. So I will do some test with them and later with Riri and SC. Desptite my dislike for her and refusal to use her, It's necessary to prove my point. Will post result later.

This wasn't in sim. I clearly said it was in the current pvp with aunt may. The enemy aunt may wouldn't be boosted to 672 in sim where there are no boosts.
My third obviously would be aunt may since she is the required character. I have no choice but to use and face this new character.

Who she's teamed up with shouldn't really matter if you stand by the idea that she is pretty much unbeatable on offense. Saying she is nearly unbeatable with the right team mates in pick 3 is a completely different thing entirely.

Mr_F

@BriMan2222 Then I misread that. "This PVP" did not connected in my head with "Golden Oldie PVP".

But then again, that is the mistake. I thought that we have established that in pick 2, when BOOSTED 5* are avaibale she is not much a problem. 95% of times (made up number) she just dies fast enough. Sure, she can be when you don't havy any boosted charas but even though just any reasonable pair can beat them. In pick 2 mThor is also weaker cause she can pick only 1 partner. For a long time i was doing it with OR+Emma.

But let's expand that. It's similar to mine Adventure with Wasp but I anticipated the neccessity of having something else. Sure life was life and I eventually have scrapped my initial plan of entering 5* land with 3-5* ready because I have quitted the game twice and just wanted to champ her before I finally came back and stayed till today.

But haven't I quitted, I would stick with having at least 3-5 5* while entering the land not because Wasp was really bad but because bad it was stupid not just having more options. Nowadays, people champ mThor and SC and later "Suprise!". That's what ya discovered: that pair is just one option. Lack of options. One reddit user has expierenced that and described it some time ago. He learned it hard way.

BUT still, that one pair is capable of defeating enemies in pick 2 often enough so people stick with that as best option to enter 5* land and SCL 10 and progress there. Nobody is saying that they can do it all 90%+ of time. Let it be even just 40%. If you have a pair that can it take you through PVE 10 and win 40% of PVP, wouldn't most take it?

Anyway. After some time, when my roster was expanding I started to see the problem in that pairing. It was nice to have something boosted but when I was out of that, I struggled a lot. Pick 2 most mostly boosted or mThor/SC leading to situation when it was hard to just do 12-16 wins.

The overall problem of that pair in pick 2 it's winning enough on both ofense and defense.

Even though, before I created this topic I asked for advises, looked up some places and have chased the reccomended options, tried them etc. And the results were mixed but simple: expand the roster to have better chances for having boosted 5* for a week and squeeze the butt for the weeks you do not have. She becomes less and less problem the wider your roster is.

If someone has already wide 5* roster when she came, It could never expierence all of that.

But if she was just a pick 2 problem, then I would call it a day and move on. Wide the roster and keep going. Weekly buffs helps with diversity there. But she is a problem is simulator too. That is mine main concern. She just take the meta there, Chasm, Kang and Polaris, and ups them up to 20 on 1-10 scale.

KGB

@DAZ0273 said:
The worst thing about playing MPQ is waiting for your turn to happen. There is absolutely nothing more muscle twitchingly polarising than watching the enemy Jane (or other characters who delay the players action) explode cascade after cascade firing powers left right and centre and feeling like you are being pummelled without any way to respond. It doesn't happen all the time but when it does I can see how it triggers the rage switch.

So much this.

More than anything else I wish you could just turn off the AI turn entirely. So that right after your turn ends, the board just changed quickly (say 1 second delay tops) to show the updated board after the AI turn (regardless of how long it was) so that you could immediately move again. The delays when facing certain enemies (mindless ones, sentries, sentinels, attack tiles, mThor) are interminable. Being able to turn off the AI turn would help a lot.

And yes, I am aware of what that would do to the PvE race and shield hopping etc. But I don't care. The number of people that matters for is 1-2% of the players (top 10 in any event) and they'd adjust and just learn to twitch even faster.

KGB

Daredevil217

@Mr_F said:
@BriMan2222 Then I misread that. "This PVP" did not connected in my head with "Golden Oldie PVP".

But then again, that is the mistake. I thought that we have established that in pick 2, when BOOSTED 5* are avaibale she is not much a problem. 95% of times (made up number) she just dies fast enough. Sure, she can be when you don't havy any boosted charas but even though just any reasonable pair can beat them. In pick 2 mThor is also weaker cause she can pick only 1 partner. For a long time i was doing it with OR+Emma.

But let's expand that. It's similar to mine Adventure with Wasp but I anticipated the neccessity of having something else. Sure life was life and I eventually have scrapped my initial plan of entering 5* land with 3-5* ready because I have quitted the game twice and just wanted to champ her before I finally came back and stayed till today.

But haven't I quitted, I would stick with having at least 3-5 5* while entering the land not because Wasp was really bad but because bad it was stupid not just having more options. Nowadays, people champ mThor and SC and later "Suprise!". That's what ya discovered: that pair is just one option. Lack of options. One reddit user has expierenced that and described it some time ago. He learned it hard way.

BUT still, that one pair is capable of defeating enemies in pick 2 often enough so people stick with that as best option to enter 5* land and SCL 10 and progress there. Nobody is saying that they can do it all 90%+ of time. Let it be even just 40%. If you have a pair that can it take you through PVE 10 and win 40% of PVP, wouldn't most take it?

Anyway. After some time, when my roster was expanding I started to see the problem in that pairing. It was nice to have something boosted but when I was out of that, I struggled a lot. Pick 2 most mostly boosted or mThor/SC leading to situation when it was hard to just do 12-16 wins.

The overall problem of that pair in pick 2 it's winning enough on both ofense and defense.

Even though, before I created this topic I asked for advises, looked up some places and have chased the reccomended options, tried them etc. And the results were mixed but simple: expand the roster to have better chances for having boosted 5* for a week and squeeze the butt for the weeks you do not have. She becomes less and less problem the wider your roster is.

If someone has already wide 5* roster when she came, It could never expierence all of that.

But if she was just a pick 2 problem, then I would call it a day and move on. Wide the roster and keep going. Weekly buffs helps with diversity there. But she is a problem is simulator too. That is mine main concern. She just take the meta there, Chasm, Kang and Polaris, and ups them up to 20 on 1-10 scale.

I didn’t realize that your issue was in Sim. I think most people who have issues with Thor, complain about pick 2, so this is new. While Thor has that extra partner you have to face in pick 3, you also get an extra partner. So you can slot in someone like Black King or Chasm to nullify her while still bringing two offensive options of choice. And by the way, if a character can beat anything 40% of the time, that would be a horrible character in this game. I think the human player is expected to win at least 90% of matches due to the advantages we inherently have over the AI as well as those programmed in (like the first turn advantage).

It will be interesting to see if a hard counter limits her use. Hulk passive AOE stopped OG Thor cold. Switch ended Hulk’s reign. Colossus did very little to slow down Shang’s presence and Morbius and friends haven’t impacted Polaris at all. Interesting how some counters can cause a meta shift while others don’t.

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@DAZ0273 said:
The worst thing about playing MPQ is waiting for your turn to happen. There is absolutely nothing more muscle twitchingly polarising than watching the enemy Jane (or other characters who delay the players action) explode cascade after cascade firing powers left right and centre and feeling like you are being pummelled without any way to respond. It doesn't happen all the time but when it does I can see how it triggers the rage switch.

So much this.

More than anything else I wish you could just turn off the AI turn entirely. So that right after your turn ends, the board just changed quickly (say 1 second delay tops) to show the updated board after the AI turn (regardless of how long it was) so that you could immediately move again. The delays when facing certain enemies (mindless ones, sentries, sentinels, attack tiles, mThor) are interminable. Being able to turn off the AI turn would help a lot.

And yes, I am aware of what that would do to the PvE race and shield hopping etc. But I don't care. The number of people that matters for is 1-2% of the players (top 10 in any event) and they'd adjust and just learn to twitch even faster.

KGB

I wouldn't mind this at all. I play really fast anyway (mostly out of force of habit at this point) and an instant AI turn would make me even faster. It'd hugely benefit players with more match-3 skill, which is exactly what the game should be rewarding at the high end.

Skillful players being able to snipe cupcakes or multi-snipe single-match hops would upset some folks, though. I'd tell them they should learn to play faster.

Mr_F

@Daredevil217

The problem in pick 2 has already a solution: wider roster and using boosted 5*. Period. The end. And I expierenced that first hand. If anybody complains about pick 2: CHAMP MORE. Have more options. It takes time but that is the solution we have and it is fine.

40% is a made up number. But even that is awesome. With that terrible win rate, I can do PVP 25 wins on top of top 200 full progression SCL 10. That is huge. And that's just 2 charas. And her win rate is waaaaay better.

As for Your simulator advise, that is the case. That one extra partner cooks her some nasty combos that can steamroll smaller rosters through many more advanced ones. BRB/Asc. Polaris/mThor or Kang/Chasm/mThor are just so easy. So far I was avoiding mThor but I'm running her now to prove or deny some thesis and never did I before have so easy time than with her - counting the realiations too.

But there is also another problem: it's not about who I can bring or with whom I can win. It's about the fact that both on defense and offense 70% of my 5* roster is easily beaten or straight up shutdowned by only mThor. Sure some other characters do shutdown even more of my roster but:

1. on ofense only (i.e on my defense)
2. they do not cascade so often on defence (my ofence) giving my opponent HUGE AP advantage
3. they have reliable counter, even or it's unascended 4* and is terrible defense team.

The big difference between unascended Mantis vs. ascended Polaris and Shaw vs. mThor as a counter is that I can really keep Mantis safely in back and she survives. I tested Shaw and maybe I was unlucky but he died way too often by gaining so much match dmg boost that he started to tank and die from one power or being mathed to death. And then the mThor steamrolls. Someone has said that 4* solution to 5* problems is not a solution. Mantis has none of that problem as I can keep her alive but not keeping her on front. Sure, terrible on defence in 5* land but still i can finish a PVP session with actually good defence team. And when I will ascend her - and I have a plan to do that - she will be even better.

BTW my pefect counter for her is same as Polaris's counter. They work but they did not stopped her from being used. i do not want mThor tobe replaced by another disaster.

Daredevil217

FWIW I’m glad you’re naming this because I remember people long ago saying no one cares about Sim, no one cares about lightning rounds, etc. I also remember people saying that no one struggles to beat Thor, we’re just bored of seeing her. It sounds like for you it’s both. 1) she is in queues too much and 2) you find her dominant on both offense AND defense which flies counter to that idea that everyone has the same problem with her.

As for your specific struggle I think I mostly agree with you. If you chop her down, someone else will take her place. Variety has never been a thing in this game because there will always be a team that will be slightly faster, or save on packs, or be a bit more of a defensive deterrent that everyone will gravitate to. I already see Omegalossus with either Chasm, Hulk, or Okoye way more than Thor in Sim personally. But this is obviously a YMMV situation. Whoever said this is probably the most diverse the game has been, I agree. I also agree that boosted toons wreck Thor pretty easy in pick 2. I do use her as a hammer for a lot of nails. The biggest of which is probably Omega. If she gets nerfed I’ll need a new solution. I’m thinking I should consider 550ing elektro maybe?

Mr_F

That is why I brought it out. My perspective is not anybody's else. If I do not disscuss mine with Yours (plurar) who's gonna understand each other? Nobody has my roster and I have nobody's roster but mine. My problems isn't yours etc. The spending differ. The goals. Preferences and so many other things. Maybe I am wrong? Maybe I am not? And I can only found out by speaking aloud.

We all should care about sim and LR - it's rewards. Quite a few times that 2* cover from sim progress gave me a level up and ISO to champ someone. I don't have time for LR but I do it from time to time. It's iso and tokens and stuff. But on the other hand, let's not chase all the white rabbits.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:

@KGB said:

@DAZ0273 said:
The worst thing about playing MPQ is waiting for your turn to happen. There is absolutely nothing more muscle twitchingly polarising than watching the enemy Jane (or other characters who delay the players action) explode cascade after cascade firing powers left right and centre and feeling like you are being pummelled without any way to respond. It doesn't happen all the time but when it does I can see how it triggers the rage switch.

So much this.

More than anything else I wish you could just turn off the AI turn entirely. So that right after your turn ends, the board just changed quickly (say 1 second delay tops) to show the updated board after the AI turn (regardless of how long it was) so that you could immediately move again. The delays when facing certain enemies (mindless ones, sentries, sentinels, attack tiles, mThor) are interminable. Being able to turn off the AI turn would help a lot.

And yes, I am aware of what that would do to the PvE race and shield hopping etc. But I don't care. The number of people that matters for is 1-2% of the players (top 10 in any event) and they'd adjust and just learn to twitch even faster.

KGB

I wouldn't mind this at all. I play really fast anyway (mostly out of force of habit at this point) and an instant AI turn would make me even faster. It'd hugely benefit players with more match-3 skill, which is exactly what the game should be rewarding at the high end.

Skillful players being able to snipe cupcakes or multi-snipe single-match hops would upset some folks, though. I'd tell them they should learn to play faster.

The game has gotten MUCH faster over the past 10.5yrs. Even faster should be welcome relief I would think. Sure some would bail out of the merry go'round, but that churn happens anyway. Anyone exiting is/was likely already just looking for a reason to do so.