mThor dillemma.

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  • Joe4521
    Joe4521 Posts: 42 Just Dropped In
    edited 8 April 2024, 02:30

    One of the developers said on Discord that Polaris and Shang Chi are the top 2 in pvp, and then there is a big gap with mThor, Deadpool, and BRB next. Colossus and Omega Red are all I see when I get near the top, and they don't have any problem beating my 550 mThor and Shang Chi down.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,965 Chairperson of the Boards

    I don't know how many times I have to say it.

    It doesn't matter that she's easy to beat, because she beats absolutely everything. There's no rock/paper/scissors when you can throw rock on offense every single time and win every single time.

    If they give us a character who's generally strong, and who she can't beat, then the metagame will be in a much better place. I don't have a lot of hope for that, but they're clearly trying, and I'm willing to wait and see.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,328 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 8 April 2024, 10:36

    My Jane must be broken then, because she doesn't win every single time I use her. I wipe with her every now and then, probably about 5% of the time and my unboosted Jane often gets crushed by boosted lvl 672 characters (Chasm didn't have this defect). Which is about the same win rate as just about any other team I use as well. Except for winfinite teams like kang/coulson/riri which is literally unbeatable with ap boosts.

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 744 Critical Contributor
    edited 8 April 2024, 11:01

    @BriMan2222 And ya forgot Simulator when there is no boosting...

    Also, we never has said that she is unbeatable, hard to beat, especially in pick 2 and vs. boosted charas. What we keep saying is that:

    1. She collects AP fast, making her easy to steamroll herself or anybody else who's not hurt that much by random tile destruction.
    2. She shutdowns almost anybody who puts anything on board, being it SAP, insibility tile, CD, repeater etc. Chasm and Polaris being greatest exceptions to that.
    3. 1+2 make her perfect target to chase to enter 5* land, with SC being the 2nd option. And given the fact that she was also omnipresented in vaults... In other way: "everybody" (not litterally) has her.
    4. She has no counter targeted specifically to her. Airborne, away or stun pretty much can deal with most charas. Shaw is 1st attemnpt that may work.

    TLDR: many are sick of seeing her over and over and not because they can not beat her. Myself included. I wish I could safely use at worst case, most of my 40+ 5* champed charas, even if I will be beaten by retaliation back to 0 points. BUT, just to repeat myself, I'd rather endure her than change the meta to something even less fun.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    I don't know how many times I have to say it.

    It doesn't matter that she's easy to beat, because she beats absolutely everything. There's no rock/paper/scissors when you can throw rock on offense every single time and win every single time.

    If they give us a character who's generally strong, and who she can't beat, then the metagame will be in a much better place. I don't have a lot of hope for that, but they're clearly trying, and I'm willing to wait and see.

    There isn't any rock/paper/scissors because that is a game of chance and MPQ is a game of strategy and roster building. With rock/paper/scissors you bring a blank slate to the fight with an unknown outcome, with MPQ you bring a chosen weapon that you have been able to cultivate by looking in the other teams artillery room.

    If you want a true Rock/Paper/Scissors experience then you need to let the AI select what team you can have on offence and try to win with it knowing that perhaps you might get a rock when you needed a paper.

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,847 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 8 April 2024, 11:35

    Right now the Roshambo League is yelling because once you’ve played against one person a couple times, you’re trying to guess if they’ll throw the same thing again or change to counter what you just threw. Etc. But….

    When people refer to Rock Paper Scissors here, it’s the idea that some teams/characters can easily beat some teams, but other teams can easily beat them.

    Like right now, put May/Chasm/OR together and eat the lunch of a Pol/BRB/Mthor team. But then Electro/Moon Knight/…Khan maybe(?) could clean their clock. But they are vulnerable to BRB/Pol/Mthor team. Etc.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,328 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Mr_F said:
    @BriMan2222 And ya forgot Simulator when there is no boosting...

    Also, we never has said that she is unbeatable, hard to beat, especially in pick 2 and vs. boosted charas. What we keep saying is that:

    1. She collects AP fast, making her easy to steamroll herself or anybody else who's not hurt that much by random tile destruction.
    2. She shutdowns almost anybody who puts anything on board, being it SAP, insibility tile, CD, repeater etc. Chasm and Polaris being greatest exceptions to that.
    3. 1+2 make her perfect target to chase to enter 5* land, with SC being the 2nd option. And given the fact that she was also omnipresented in vaults... In other way: "everybody" (not litterally) has her.
    4. She has no counter targeted specifically to her. Airborne, away or stun pretty much can deal with most charas. Shaw is 1st attemnpt that may work.

    TLDR: many are sick of seeing her over and over and not because they can not beat her. Myself included. I wish I could safely use at worst case, most of my 40+ 5* champed charas, even if I will be beaten by retaliation back to 0 points. BUT, just to repeat myself, I'd rather endure her than change the meta to something even less fun.

    I think you misread what I wrote. I never said that anyone claimed she was unbeatable to fight against. I was replying to EB who stated that in the players hand you cannot lose with her.

  • Zalasta
    Zalasta Posts: 293 Mover and Shaker

    @Seph1roth5 said:
    If they had just made shaw a 5 it would've been fine.

    This should have been the answer. Then you’d have a 5-star and a 3-star counter accessible to everyone. 4-star answers to 5-star problems is a terrible solution.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bluewolf said:
    Right now the Roshambo League is yelling because once you’ve played against one person a couple times, you’re trying to guess if they’ll throw the same thing again or change to counter what you just threw. Etc. But….

    When people refer to Rock Paper Scissors here, it’s the idea that some teams/characters can easily beat some teams, but other teams can easily beat them.

    Like right now, put May/Chasm/OR together and eat the lunch of a Pol/BRB/Mthor team. But then Electro/Moon Knight/…Khan maybe(?) could clean their clock. But they are vulnerable to BRB/Pol/Mthor team. Etc.

    But that involves having a wide range of characters to use for expanding and altering situations and having been able to acquire them over a sustained period of playing instead of picking one or 2 things and winning a lot. The reason people like Jane is that she is a Swiss army knife. A large part of the player pool want to chase as few things as possible and have them be the most effective. It is like Bishop again - there is no counter to Bishop. Yes there was, Silver Surfer was stun immune. Oh he works against Bishop but what about other teams of non-Bishop? Putting a target on me, etc etc.

    It isn't even like Jane is 100% guaranteed to win every match on offence but she is close enough so you wont change player mentality, if she is gone they will just move on to the next best dead cert.

    Even with boost weeks we haven't managed the true diversity that EB wants because too many people out there don't want variety or rock/paper/scissors, they want consistency that you can use rock against scissors AND paper.

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 744 Critical Contributor
    edited 8 April 2024, 17:13

    @BriMan2222 said:
    I think you misread what I wrote. I never said that anyone claimed she was unbeatable to fight against. I was replying to EB who stated that in the players hand you cannot lose with her.

    If so, then sorry.

    But @entrailbucket is right. She is able to beat most of the roster on offense. Sure, (s)he exaggarated a bit, but point is that she is that good that I can take her with whatever to fight whatever and win majority of time. And because she does not have a definitive counter, it leads to overflooding.

    All I want is that if certain kit requires that, it has to be a definitive counter to it. Colosus vs. SC. Electro vs. OR. Kang vs. Chasm. Chasm vs. BRB/Polaris. etc. And in all of this cases, I've been losing on ofence and defense too cause non of them are hard counters. Electro's yellow's do not stop OR's Red from killing her. Kang does not stop Chasm from chipping him to death. Yet, many times mThor just makes that. She is draining my fun away cause either I will skip a lot or build my teams around her. Where is the fun of possessing 40+ 5* champions when I constantly am forced to using 6 of them cause of one character?

    For the sake fun here, lets say that all we need is Bob, the Agent of Hydra as a character. His kit has whatever is needed to deal with her yet all she needs is a bit of luck (or right partner or focusing him) and she slaps him on ofence.

    And with Bob, I want to pick him, pair with whatever I want, be it Arcade, Vulture, Phylla, Wasp, Goose etc. and go fight her. And lose 40% of time, heal him after every fight. I want to have Bob just like I have Colossus to Fight of SC. I want to have that option.

    And It do not have to be Bob a.k.a new character. Take Jeff and rework his green to like cost 1 less (to min. of 3) for every X charge tiles on board. Maybe 5* Thanos can have somthing like that on his purple. Shaw is definetly step in right direction.

    Patience, has said the 1ft responce here. True as hell.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    Why can't you use boosted 5* to beat her if you have 40 of them? The other week the only boosted 5 I had was the miles out of his depth Black Bolt and I could still beat the throngs of Jane/Shang.

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 744 Critical Contributor
    edited 8 April 2024, 13:52

    @DAZ0273

    Not every week I have boosted 5* avaiable. And every time when that happens, I run into a problem we are disscussing here.

    And there are no boosted charas in simulator. Back in Chasm era I was free in using whatever till like 1000 PTS when there was that meta wall and now right from 0. Times has changed. That is the results of devs generosity and people grabbing and champing metas since 9th ani.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    If you keep champing 5* you will eventually have a very decent chance of having a boosted 5 each week. Now I am not saying they are all winners but I haven't yet come across a week where it was not stacked highly in my favour if I took on an unboosted Jane/Shang with a boosted 5.

    Now obviously the abundance of that particular team is tedious but there is enough in game to cope.

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 744 Critical Contributor

    True. But still I want my Bob, The Hydra Agent in simulator. And some more variety in what I can use and still win often enough.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    SHIELD Sim is where I probably don't suffer as much coz I don't really play it apart from grabbing 70+ pointers at the end. If they ever improve the reward structure in that then I might be right behind you. Lucky pick 2 has some level of variety,

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,394 Chairperson of the Boards

    Some quick thoughts from me:

    I can't win Rock/Paper/Scissors 95% of the time. So it's a principle point, not a direct comparison.

    That said, if I know what is on defence, I'll win almost 100% of the time by using the right thing. On occasion I might lose concentration and just put a rock out against scissors.

    There are enough tools in the game to beat anyone and everyone. If you can do so quickly then that works for everyone. PvP is no fun for anyone if it takes forever per match but it does mean you take fewer defensive hits.

    What about a "skip premium"? Every time someone skips you, it adds a point to the score and you lose more points for losing. That could be a hilarious team-based PvP angle.

    I did think the support counter idea was good, until I thought you're actually better to just nerf the character and offer a sale. Using one of your people slots to counter another is fair - a support just makes it 3 v 2.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,470 Chairperson of the Boards

    Has anyone ascended Cosmo yet? Help From Knowhere's passive seems like it should definitely work, but every time I've included my 4* on a counter team in pick 3 to see if it does something it always feels like she gets blasted by the yellow (only level 306, 18k hit points) because some other character on the opposing team matched a charge tile, and it seems like only one character at a time can be affected by it in a cascade scenario also.

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 744 Critical Contributor
    edited 8 April 2024, 17:10

    @Scofie said:
    That said, if I know what is on defence, I'll win almost 100% of the time by using the right thing. On occasion I might lose concentration and just put a rock out against scissors.

    Scissors against rock. ;p

    Right now, going by that comparission, there exists in the game not only rock, scissors and paper. It's more like rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock from the TBBT.

    With one, little addidtion. There is six element here. something that crushes rocks, dismantles scissors, shreds paper, decapitates lizard and disprove Spock. And the same time, that six element can be crushed by some rocks, some paper, some scissors etc. And that element is mThor.

    And that is my biggest concers here.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,965 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Has anyone ascended Cosmo yet? Help From Knowhere's passive seems like it should definitely work, but every time I've included my 4* on a counter team in pick 3 to see if it does something it always feels like she gets blasted by the yellow (only level 306, 18k hit points) because some other character on the opposing team matched a charge tile, and it seems like only one character at a time can be affected by it in a cascade scenario also.

    I have Cosmo ascended but haven't used her yet. I don't think she's been boosted, and mine is like 450. Alligator Loki did work ok when boosted.

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