@entrailbucket [Official Forums] Question: In high end PvP, the metagame is basically 100% Mighty Thor now. What do her usage/winrate numbers look like from your side, are you watching her, and/or is she on a list to get rebalanced anytime soon?
Answer: Mighty Thor is in the top 10 as far as character usage is concerned. As for win rate, they are in the top 3. The character is talked about in conversations concerning balance in general (though it should be said that there are many avenues we consider ahead of a rebalance).
Mr. F, I don’t know if you’ve seen this from the developer Q&A back in January, but it seems that they are in agreement with you and a lot of players, so I wouldn’t worry too much about a nerf. She is clearly a top character (though I was surprised to hear she’s not THE top character and wonder who tops her in usage and wins). The only other avenues I can think of other than a nerf are 1) a counter or 2) a character even more OP that has everyone move on to that meta. It’ll be interesting to see what comes down the pipeline.
Lol, you must've skipped the part of that quote that says "we'll never nerf her, we promise, feel free to go all in then use her for everything!"
I read that as exactly what they did with Chasm. They recognize that there's a problem, and they're going to try to counter their way out of it first. With Chasm it didn't work, so eventually they fixed him. We're about to find out what happens with m'Thor.
One of the developers said on Discord that Polaris and Shang Chi are the top 2 in pvp, and then there is a big gap with mThor, Deadpool, and BRB next. Colossus and Omega Red are all I see when I get near the top, and they don't have any problem beating my 550 mThor and Shang Chi down.
@entrailbucket said: Lol, you must've skipped the part of that quote that says "we'll never nerf her, we promise, feel free to go all in then use her for everything!" I read that as exactly what they did with Chasm. They recognize that there's a problem, and they're going to try to counter their way out of it first. With Chasm it didn't work, so eventually they fixed him. We're about to find out what happens with m'Thor.
@entrailbucket said: Lol, you must've skipped the part of that quote that says "we'll never nerf her, we promise, feel free to go all in then use her for everything!"
The difference between her and chasm though is that chasm was a terror to fight on the ai team where mthor is a glass canon who can occasionally have a big cascade ruin your day. Polaris is exactly the same in 4 star land and she is still yet to be nerfed. All of the nerfs have been to characters that were tough to beat even when run by the terrible ai (with the exception of some characters like oml being nerfed because they saved player health packs)
When chasm was at his height it was all chasm all day. In pick 2 pvp every team was chasm hulk or chasm and best boosted character. I quit doing sim because even at low points all I was seeing was hulk chasm.
With mthor i see a lot of Shang Jane teams up to like 500 points in pvp and then they mostly go away in favor of boosted teams or OR teams. In sim this is the closest I've seen to rock/paper/scissors. There are Jane/brb/Polaris teams who are completely shut down by chasm teams preventing the charged and protect tiles on turn 1, and chasm teams are handled easily be kang plus blue generator teams, who are handled easily by jane/polaris/bill.
The best part about this meta is that all of those teams can be beat without much trouble by anything else really. I've been running teams like Colossus/apocalypse/ascended Chavez or northstar/onslaught/mehneto or rocket/ascended 4 carol/coulson, or carbage/polaris/medusa.
I also see many other ascended 4 star teams around or ascended 1 stars. I don't think any of these teams would be around if chasm hadnt been nerfed. Thor is popular and good, but nowhere near the level Chasm was or bishop or gambit in their days.
I don't know how many times I have to say it.
It doesn't matter that she's easy to beat, because she beats absolutely everything. There's no rock/paper/scissors when you can throw rock on offense every single time and win every single time.
If they give us a character who's generally strong, and who she can't beat, then the metagame will be in a much better place. I don't have a lot of hope for that, but they're clearly trying, and I'm willing to wait and see.
My Jane must be broken then, because she doesn't win every single time I use her. I wipe with her every now and then, probably about 5% of the time and my unboosted Jane often gets crushed by boosted lvl 672 characters (Chasm didn't have this defect). Which is about the same win rate as just about any other team I use as well. Except for winfinite teams like kang/coulson/riri which is literally unbeatable with ap boosts.
@BriMan2222 And ya forgot Simulator when there is no boosting...
Also, we never has said that she is unbeatable, hard to beat, especially in pick 2 and vs. boosted charas. What we keep saying is that:
TLDR: many are sick of seeing her over and over and not because they can not beat her. Myself included. I wish I could safely use at worst case, most of my 40+ 5* champed charas, even if I will be beaten by retaliation back to 0 points. BUT, just to repeat myself, I'd rather endure her than change the meta to something even less fun.
@entrailbucket said: I don't know how many times I have to say it. It doesn't matter that she's easy to beat, because she beats absolutely everything. There's no rock/paper/scissors when you can throw rock on offense every single time and win every single time. If they give us a character who's generally strong, and who she can't beat, then the metagame will be in a much better place. I don't have a lot of hope for that, but they're clearly trying, and I'm willing to wait and see.
@entrailbucket said: I don't know how many times I have to say it.
There isn't any rock/paper/scissors because that is a game of chance and MPQ is a game of strategy and roster building. With rock/paper/scissors you bring a blank slate to the fight with an unknown outcome, with MPQ you bring a chosen weapon that you have been able to cultivate by looking in the other teams artillery room.
If you want a true Rock/Paper/Scissors experience then you need to let the AI select what team you can have on offence and try to win with it knowing that perhaps you might get a rock when you needed a paper.
Right now the Roshambo League is yelling because once you’ve played against one person a couple times, you’re trying to guess if they’ll throw the same thing again or change to counter what you just threw. Etc. But….
When people refer to Rock Paper Scissors here, it’s the idea that some teams/characters can easily beat some teams, but other teams can easily beat them.
Like right now, put May/Chasm/OR together and eat the lunch of a Pol/BRB/Mthor team. But then Electro/Moon Knight/…Khan maybe(?) could clean their clock. But they are vulnerable to BRB/Pol/Mthor team. Etc.
@Mr_F said:@BriMan2222 And ya forgot Simulator when there is no boosting... Also, we never has said that she is unbeatable, hard to beat, especially in pick 2 and vs. boosted charas. What we keep saying is that: She collects AP fast, making her easy to steamroll herself or anybody else who's not hurt that much by random tile destruction. She shutdowns almost anybody who puts anything on board, being it SAP, insibility tile, CD, repeater etc. Chasm and Polaris being greatest exceptions to that. 1+2 make her perfect target to chase to enter 5* land, with SC being the 2nd option. And given the fact that she was also omnipresented in vaults... In other way: "everybody" (not litterally) has her. She has no counter targeted specifically to her. Airborne, away or stun pretty much can deal with most charas. Shaw is 1st attemnpt that may work. TLDR: many are sick of seeing her over and over and not because they can not beat her. Myself included. I wish I could safely use at worst case, most of my 40+ 5* champed charas, even if I will be beaten by retaliation back to 0 points. BUT, just to repeat myself, I'd rather endure her than change the meta to something even less fun.
@Mr_F said:@BriMan2222 And ya forgot Simulator when there is no boosting...
I think you misread what I wrote. I never said that anyone claimed she was unbeatable to fight against. I was replying to EB who stated that in the players hand you cannot lose with her.
@Seph1roth5 said: If they had just made shaw a 5 it would've been fine.
This should have been the answer. Then you’d have a 5-star and a 3-star counter accessible to everyone. 4-star answers to 5-star problems is a terrible solution.
@bluewolf said: Right now the Roshambo League is yelling because once you’ve played against one person a couple times, you’re trying to guess if they’ll throw the same thing again or change to counter what you just threw. Etc. But…. When people refer to Rock Paper Scissors here, it’s the idea that some teams/characters can easily beat some teams, but other teams can easily beat them. Like right now, put May/Chasm/OR together and eat the lunch of a Pol/BRB/Mthor team. But then Electro/Moon Knight/…Khan maybe(?) could clean their clock. But they are vulnerable to BRB/Pol/Mthor team. Etc.
@bluewolf said: Right now the Roshambo League is yelling because once you’ve played against one person a couple times, you’re trying to guess if they’ll throw the same thing again or change to counter what you just threw. Etc. But….
But that involves having a wide range of characters to use for expanding and altering situations and having been able to acquire them over a sustained period of playing instead of picking one or 2 things and winning a lot. The reason people like Jane is that she is a Swiss army knife. A large part of the player pool want to chase as few things as possible and have them be the most effective. It is like Bishop again - there is no counter to Bishop. Yes there was, Silver Surfer was stun immune. Oh he works against Bishop but what about other teams of non-Bishop? Putting a target on me, etc etc.
It isn't even like Jane is 100% guaranteed to win every match on offence but she is close enough so you wont change player mentality, if she is gone they will just move on to the next best dead cert.
Even with boost weeks we haven't managed the true diversity that EB wants because too many people out there don't want variety or rock/paper/scissors, they want consistency that you can use rock against scissors AND paper.
@BriMan2222 said: I think you misread what I wrote. I never said that anyone claimed she was unbeatable to fight against. I was replying to EB who stated that in the players hand you cannot lose with her.
If so, then sorry.
But @entrailbucket is right. She is able to beat most of the roster on offense. Sure, (s)he exaggarated a bit, but point is that she is that good that I can take her with whatever to fight whatever and win majority of time. And because she does not have a definitive counter, it leads to overflooding.
All I want is that if certain kit requires that, it has to be a definitive counter to it. Colosus vs. SC. Electro vs. OR. Kang vs. Chasm. Chasm vs. BRB/Polaris. etc. And in all of this cases, I've been losing on ofence and defense too cause non of them are hard counters. Electro's yellow's do not stop OR's Red from killing her. Kang does not stop Chasm from chipping him to death. Yet, many times mThor just makes that. She is draining my fun away cause either I will skip a lot or build my teams around her. Where is the fun of possessing 40+ 5* champions when I constantly am forced to using 6 of them cause of one character?
For the sake fun here, lets say that all we need is Bob, the Agent of Hydra as a character. His kit has whatever is needed to deal with her yet all she needs is a bit of luck (or right partner or focusing him) and she slaps him on ofence.
And with Bob, I want to pick him, pair with whatever I want, be it Arcade, Vulture, Phylla, Wasp, Goose etc. and go fight her. And lose 40% of time, heal him after every fight. I want to have Bob just like I have Colossus to Fight of SC. I want to have that option.
And It do not have to be Bob a.k.a new character. Take Jeff and rework his green to like cost 1 less (to min. of 3) for every X charge tiles on board. Maybe 5* Thanos can have somthing like that on his purple. Shaw is definetly step in right direction.
Patience, has said the 1ft responce here. True as hell.
Why can't you use boosted 5* to beat her if you have 40 of them? The other week the only boosted 5 I had was the miles out of his depth Black Bolt and I could still beat the throngs of Jane/Shang.
@DAZ0273
Not every week I have boosted 5* avaiable. And every time when that happens, I run into a problem we are disscussing here.
And there are no boosted charas in simulator. Back in Chasm era I was free in using whatever till like 1000 PTS when there was that meta wall and now right from 0. Times has changed. That is the results of devs generosity and people grabbing and champing metas since 9th ani.
If you keep champing 5* you will eventually have a very decent chance of having a boosted 5 each week. Now I am not saying they are all winners but I haven't yet come across a week where it was not stacked highly in my favour if I took on an unboosted Jane/Shang with a boosted 5.
Now obviously the abundance of that particular team is tedious but there is enough in game to cope.
True. But still I want my Bob, The Hydra Agent in simulator. And some more variety in what I can use and still win often enough.
SHIELD Sim is where I probably don't suffer as much coz I don't really play it apart from grabbing 70+ pointers at the end. If they ever improve the reward structure in that then I might be right behind you. Lucky pick 2 has some level of variety,
Some quick thoughts from me:
I can't win Rock/Paper/Scissors 95% of the time. So it's a principle point, not a direct comparison.
That said, if I know what is on defence, I'll win almost 100% of the time by using the right thing. On occasion I might lose concentration and just put a rock out against scissors.
There are enough tools in the game to beat anyone and everyone. If you can do so quickly then that works for everyone. PvP is no fun for anyone if it takes forever per match but it does mean you take fewer defensive hits.
What about a "skip premium"? Every time someone skips you, it adds a point to the score and you lose more points for losing. That could be a hilarious team-based PvP angle.
I did think the support counter idea was good, until I thought you're actually better to just nerf the character and offer a sale. Using one of your people slots to counter another is fair - a support just makes it 3 v 2.
Has anyone ascended Cosmo yet? Help From Knowhere's passive seems like it should definitely work, but every time I've included my 4* on a counter team in pick 3 to see if it does something it always feels like she gets blasted by the yellow (only level 306, 18k hit points) because some other character on the opposing team matched a charge tile, and it seems like only one character at a time can be affected by it in a cascade scenario also.