Ascended Winners and Losers

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,903 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Tony_Foot said:
    I cannot tell you how much I'm looking forward to headbutting some Mthor.

    I was always told that "punching up" in this game is a good thing, and that it's "good for the game" that relatively new hoarders can trivially beat my 10-plus-year, highly competitive roster.

    I wonder how those folks will feel when literally anyone who spends $20 can "punch up" at them. (I bet we'll hear all sorts of fun arguments about how it's "killing the game," now that they're the ones being punched at).

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @entrailbucket said:

    @Tony_Foot said:
    I cannot tell you how much I'm looking forward to headbutting some Mthor.

    I was always told that "punching up" in this game is a good thing, and that it's "good for the game" that relatively new hoarders can trivially beat my 10-plus-year, highly competitive roster.

    I wonder how those folks will feel when literally anyone who spends $20 can "punch up" at them. (I bet we'll hear all sorts of fun arguments about how it's "killing the game," now that they're the ones being punched at).

    Those guys stopped having fun when their Chasms died.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,903 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Bowgentle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Tony_Foot said:
    I cannot tell you how much I'm looking forward to headbutting some Mthor.

    I was always told that "punching up" in this game is a good thing, and that it's "good for the game" that relatively new hoarders can trivially beat my 10-plus-year, highly competitive roster.

    I wonder how those folks will feel when literally anyone who spends $20 can "punch up" at them. (I bet we'll hear all sorts of fun arguments about how it's "killing the game," now that they're the ones being punched at).

    Those guys stopped having fun when their Chasms died.

    C'mon, those guys have never had fun.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 2,937 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @entrailbucket said:

    @Tony_Foot said:
    I cannot tell you how much I'm looking forward to headbutting some Mthor.

    I was always told that "punching up" in this game is a good thing, and that it's "good for the game" that relatively new hoarders can trivially beat my 10-plus-year, highly competitive roster.

    I wonder how those folks will feel when literally anyone who spends $20 can "punch up" at them. (I bet we'll hear all sorts of fun arguments about how it's "killing the game," now that they're the ones being punched at).

    Personally I think you should always be able to win any match if you are willing to spend the resources to do so. Character gets killed mid match, you should be able to spend a health pack to revive them (2 health packs 2nd time one dies, then 4, then 8). Need some AP to fire a power, you should be able to use boosts to get AP anytime you want it mid match (increasingly costly obviously). Or use your Deadpool points on command (no need for the TU or TU AP) for an extra cost. In theory, players are supposed to be heroes (yes, I know we use villains too) and heroes always win sometimes easily and sometimes with high costs.

    In the same vein, you should be able to shield as much as you want with increasing costs on the shield each time you use that type.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,903 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 21 January 2024, 23:12
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    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Tony_Foot said:
    I cannot tell you how much I'm looking forward to headbutting some Mthor.

    I was always told that "punching up" in this game is a good thing, and that it's "good for the game" that relatively new hoarders can trivially beat my 10-plus-year, highly competitive roster.

    I wonder how those folks will feel when literally anyone who spends $20 can "punch up" at them. (I bet we'll hear all sorts of fun arguments about how it's "killing the game," now that they're the ones being punched at).

    Personally I think you should always be able to win any match if you are willing to spend the resources to do so. Character gets killed mid match, you should be able to spend a health pack to revive them (2 health packs 2nd time one dies, then 4, then 8). Need some AP to fire a power, you should be able to use boosts to get AP anytime you want it mid match (increasingly costly obviously). Or use your Deadpool points on command (no need for the TU or TU AP) for an extra cost. In theory, players are supposed to be heroes (yes, I know we use villains too) and heroes always win sometimes easily and sometimes with high costs.

    In the same vein, you should be able to shield as much as you want with increasing costs on the shield each time you use that type.

    KGB

    In the very early days, we actually had three attempts to win every match -- if you wiped, you could heal your team (and maybe swap characters, I think?) but the enemy would have the same remaining health as when you lost.

    I'm not sure how common your attitude about "punching up" is, but what I've found over the years is that a lot of folks SAY they're in favor of it, and enjoy punching up at stronger teams. Oddly, though, they mysteriously stop being in favor of it the moment a lower-level player starts punching up at them.

    A lot of 550 Thors are going to start getting headbutted soon and it's going to be delightful.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 2,937 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 21 January 2024, 23:31
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    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Tony_Foot said:
    I cannot tell you how much I'm looking forward to headbutting some Mthor.

    I was always told that "punching up" in this game is a good thing, and that it's "good for the game" that relatively new hoarders can trivially beat my 10-plus-year, highly competitive roster.

    I wonder how those folks will feel when literally anyone who spends $20 can "punch up" at them. (I bet we'll hear all sorts of fun arguments about how it's "killing the game," now that they're the ones being punched at).

    Personally I think you should always be able to win any match if you are willing to spend the resources to do so. Character gets killed mid match, you should be able to spend a health pack to revive them (2 health packs 2nd time one dies, then 4, then 8). Need some AP to fire a power, you should be able to use boosts to get AP anytime you want it mid match (increasingly costly obviously). Or use your Deadpool points on command (no need for the TU or TU AP) for an extra cost. In theory, players are supposed to be heroes (yes, I know we use villains too) and heroes always win sometimes easily and sometimes with high costs.

    In the same vein, you should be able to shield as much as you want with increasing costs on the shield each time you use that type.

    KGB

    In the very early days, we actually had three attempts to win every match -- if you wiped, you could heal your team (and maybe swap characters, I think?) but the enemy would have the same remaining health as when you lost.

    I'm not sure how common your attitude about "punching up" is, but what I've found over the years is that a lot of folks SAY they're in favor of it, and enjoy punching up at stronger teams. Oddly, though, they mysteriously stop being in favor of it the moment a lower-level player starts punching up at them.

    A lot of 550 Thors are going to start getting headbutted soon and it's going to be delightful.

    As someone who only plays for 25 wins/1000 points I don't care about hits and I rarely shield (only if I'm well inside T25 when I reach 25 wins/1000 points). So lots of hits is something I'm already used to. On the other hand when I'm playing for 25 wins, I'd like to only have to play 25 matches due to time constraints in my real life so I'm willing to spend extra resources to get wins in those matches that go sideways due to crazy cascades/bad boards.

    KGB

    P.S. I think Daz should change his signature from "Have you been a victim of face slapping? Then don't delay, call today! 1-900-FACESLAP" to "Have you been a victim of a Head Butting? Then don't delay, call today! 1-900-NERFJUGS" in honor of Ascended 1->5 Juggs being introduced.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,903 Chairperson of the Boards
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    The other fun, and also totally hilarious, aspect of Juggernaut is his defensive value. If you can't deny 6 red AP (remember how fun it was trying to deny 6 blue against Kitty/Beta Bill?) somebody is eating like 200k damage to the face every fight.

    With Thor in every single fight, charging red tiles, it'll be even more volatile. If you bring her you might end up eating TWO headbutts!

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Tony_Foot said:
    I cannot tell you how much I'm looking forward to headbutting some Mthor.

    I was always told that "punching up" in this game is a good thing, and that it's "good for the game" that relatively new hoarders can trivially beat my 10-plus-year, highly competitive roster.

    I wonder how those folks will feel when literally anyone who spends $20 can "punch up" at them. (I bet we'll hear all sorts of fun arguments about how it's "killing the game," now that they're the ones being punched at).

    Personally I think you should always be able to win any match if you are willing to spend the resources to do so. Character gets killed mid match, you should be able to spend a health pack to revive them (2 health packs 2nd time one dies, then 4, then 8). Need some AP to fire a power, you should be able to use boosts to get AP anytime you want it mid match (increasingly costly obviously). Or use your Deadpool points on command (no need for the TU or TU AP) for an extra cost. In theory, players are supposed to be heroes (yes, I know we use villains too) and heroes always win sometimes easily and sometimes with high costs.

    In the same vein, you should be able to shield as much as you want with increasing costs on the shield each time you use that type.

    KGB

    In the very early days, we actually had three attempts to win every match -- if you wiped, you could heal your team (and maybe swap characters, I think?) but the enemy would have the same remaining health as when you lost.

    I'm not sure how common your attitude about "punching up" is, but what I've found over the years is that a lot of folks SAY they're in favor of it, and enjoy punching up at stronger teams. Oddly, though, they mysteriously stop being in favor of it the moment a lower-level player starts punching up at them.

    A lot of 550 Thors are going to start getting headbutted soon and it's going to be delightful.

    As someone who only plays for 25 wins/1000 points I don't care about hits and I rarely shield (only if I'm well inside T25 when I reach 25 wins/1000 points). So lots of hits is something I'm already used to. On the other hand when I'm playing for 25 wins, I'd like to only have to play 25 matches due to time constraints in my real life so I'm willing to spend extra resources to get wins in those matches that go sideways due to crazy cascades/bad boards.

    KGB

    P.S. I think Daz should change his signature from "Have you been a victim of face slapping? Then don't delay, call today! 1-900-FACESLAP" to "Have you been a victim of a Head Butting? Then don't delay, call today! 1-900-NERFJUGS" in honor of Ascended 1->5 Juggs being introduced.

    Eh, I don't want him nerfed though? I have a baby champed 5* roster so I am not exactly king of the ring or anything and I am not opposed to players benefitting from something they can purchase even though I haven't done myself. Of course if it becomes that you cannot play PvP at all in the future without buying an ascended Juggs then I expect there to be a massive outcry but for now people should get to enjoy their headbutts. At least he isn't stun immune! (Devs furiously taking notes)

  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,710 Chairperson of the Boards
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    God bless these players and all those that sail on them.

    Rode these types to 25 wins in daken PvP. Was the quickest event I’ve ever played.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Ascended Storm is particularly squishy, I also enjoy fighting these guys! But...that will not be true when it becomes headbutt time...

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @entrailbucket said:
    The other fun, and also totally hilarious, aspect of Juggernaut is his defensive value. If you can't deny 6 red AP (remember how fun it was trying to deny 6 blue against Kitty/Beta Bill?) somebody is eating like 200k damage to the face every fight.

    With Thor in every single fight, charging red tiles, it'll be even more volatile. If you bring her you might end up eating TWO headbutts!

    I wonder whether people will bring back Chasm to try and delay Juggs getting on his defensive steamroller? Stun seems the only defence to me unless you can one-shot him which given his health will not be easy.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    The other fun, and also totally hilarious, aspect of Juggernaut is his defensive value. If you can't deny 6 red AP (remember how fun it was trying to deny 6 blue against Kitty/Beta Bill?) somebody is eating like 200k damage to the face every fight.

    With Thor in every single fight, charging red tiles, it'll be even more volatile. If you bring her you might end up eating TWO headbutts!

    I wonder whether people will bring back Chasm to try and delay Juggs getting on his defensive steamroller? Stun seems the only defence to me unless you can one-shot him which given his health will not be easy.

    They'll bring their own Juggs.

  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,710 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Dr Strange rework will ignore all headbutts.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Tony_Foot said:
    Dr Strange rework will ignore all headbutts.

    By the Hoary Hosts of NOT Headbutt!

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Speaking of Dr. Strange - that isn't coming until mid 2024 which seems a very long time so are they changing him that much? And if they do will they then leave the 3 version intact (I hope so)?

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @DAZ0273 said:
    Speaking of Dr. Strange - that isn't coming until mid 2024 which seems a very long time so are they changing him that much? And if they do will they then leave the 3 version intact (I hope so)?

    Well they seem to have their hands full with one rework per month, plus changing whatever they change for ascended chars.
    I don't know if they have any idea about what they'll do with Strange yet, Mid 24 seems to be their first free slot.

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,293 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 22 January 2024, 14:10
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    A few thoughts about 1Juggs:

    1. The number of folks who will drop $20 on an ascended 1 is probably much smaller than people imagine.
    2. If he becomes required during boost weeks then the game became pay to win, because of the low price point. Not sure the devs want this to happen? but maybe they do since they will certainly repeat his offer again.
    3. His red is his second highest color and while he will be boosted a lot, his match dmg is not as high as other characters/natural 5s or ascended 4s. It's not unlikely that until he is leveled up a lot, his colors won't be prioritized and sometimes red won't be chased by the AI. Some people will possibly cap their ascended 1s so they aren't forced to field them every match as they get leveled up beyond their standard 5s, reducing his potential presence in PVP.
    4. Cheap powers are not always fired especially if you have another power in the same color that can be fired. The game is not good on defense at prioritizing in this way and has absolutely no ability to choose the best option among several (it's random, basically). Hence if you kill him first (granted, a tall order given the health pool) you can avoid headbutts.
    5. His green is basically doing nothing except setting up possible cascades/matches. His black can be fired for no effect if there are no SAPs to destroy. Basically he has a number of weaknesses and yes his headbutt is very scary but this isn't exactly a kit that will dominate every match requiring mirroring.
    6. As people have pointed out the red damages you requiring health packs. The number of players who are out there burning through wins who aslso just DGAF about health packs/HP is....the same players there have always been. Some people may use him to try to avoid shielding/get skips on defense of course.

    TLDR: You will see him out, especially ever 4 weeks when he's boosted. He won't be as ubiquitous as you might think and he will be a pain to use since you basically have to use his red in many matches to do any significant damage with him. PVPers who hop and use him are basically doing a disservice to people in their rooms since his giant health pool will require a pretty long match to get through.

    It's entirely possible the devs should have made him (and other 1-5s) more expensive to reduce the issue of reducing the value of rosters for players who spent a lot more to get high level 5s, and the low rosters skewing their MMR. However I also think the game is getting very long in the tooth and one main way they are continuing to run is by pulling in bargain hunters with all these various offers, chains etc. There is no putting that genie back in the bottle. If you are a whale and enjoy the game you have to give up the concept that you bought yourself a permanent advantage since FTPs have been able to 550 people with diligent play and low level spenders can now buy R5 supports when they are offered, rank them up, cheaply buy 5* covers etc.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    The thing is we don't have to speculate how the AI will use Juggs because we already know from his various PvE nodes. The AI will, given the opportunity, headbutt you to death.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor
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    @bluewolf said:
    A few thoughts about 1Juggs:
    If he becomes required during boost weeks then the game became pay to win

    Would anyone claim the game wasn't pay to win?