Ascended Winners and Losers

dianetics

@WhiteBomber said:
In my experience Chasm completely shuts down MThor (on offense anyway). Others mention ascended Loki or Moondog? Not really sure many people have them ascended though.

Chasm stops her from going early, but you have to take her out first.
Shaw stops her engine, so you can leave her for last. With Shaw out SheThor never has more than 4 charged tiles on the board, but virtually never more than 1 at the beginning of her turn.
Chasm is very different he slows her down for 3-4 turns. After a while her engine revs up and blows you out.

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:
In my experience Chasm completely shuts down MThor (on offense anyway). Others mention ascended Loki or Moondog? Not really sure many people have them ascended though.

Loki damages the opponent every time they match a charged tile. When he's 5* and boosted, the damage gets pretty significant -- I tried him awhile ago and it was 20k or so, which will kill an unboosted m'Thor in 7 or 8 hits.

Cosmo is better, but hasn't been boosted yet. His passive deactivates the enemy's powers, including passives, every time they match a charged tile. I haven't tried him out yet though.

ThaRoadWarrior

That power doesn’t seem to work like I want it to; it never actually seems to shut Jane off.

MoosePrime

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
That power doesn’t seem to work like I want it to; it never actually seems to shut Jane off.

The character has to match the tile, if one of Jane's teammates makes the match, it won't stop her passives.

ThaRoadWarrior

Yeah that feels like what is happening. It's been my experience that Shaw just works better.

WhiteBomber

mm, yeah that's kind of weak, unfortunate since it's such a fun concept. Hopefully they make new abilities in the future that more easily shut down passives.

entrailbucket

I've asked about the passive passive-killer guy a bunch, and they really just can't make him at this point. We've got way too many passives and way too many characters would behave in strange ways if they were shut off full-time.

I really don't know what they'll do to counter m'Thor but I hope they keep trying. It needs to be a character that she can't beat, but I think anyone that she can't beat is going to be quite problematic in his own right.

dianetics

So to make a passive killer you need him to have a passive...that kills passives.
So when they go toe to toe who wins?

I am sure there are other ways to go at the passive meta, but strait denying passives probably just wont work and could potentially break the game.

LavaManLee

@dianetics said:
So to make a passive killer you need him to have a passive...that kills passives.
So when they go toe to toe who wins?

I am sure there are other ways to go at the passive meta, but strait denying passives probably just wont work and could potentially break the game.

Yeah, I would think it would have to be more of a fortified countdown tile or something. Fire 6 AP and get a countdown tile that, when on board, either doesn't allow passives or maybe you could target one toon on the opposing team that can't use passives while CD on board.

KGB

@LavaManLee said:

@dianetics said:
So to make a passive killer you need him to have a passive...that kills passives.
So when they go toe to toe who wins?

I am sure there are other ways to go at the passive meta, but strait denying passives probably just wont work and could potentially break the game.

Yeah, I would think it would have to be more of a fortified countdown tile or something. Fire 6 AP and get a countdown tile that, when on board, either doesn't allow passives or maybe you could target one toon on the opposing team that can't use passives while CD on board.

Technically something like this already exists now in the Away and Stun mechanics. You send her away / stun for X number of turns and during that time all her passives are 'off'.

KGB

KGB

@entrailbucket said:
I really don't know what they'll do to counter m'Thor but I hope they keep trying. It needs to be a character that she can't beat, but I think anyone that she can't beat is going to be quite problematic in his own right.

Are there any actual absolute counters in the game now? Where if you use character X and the opposing team has character Y you can't beat them? Even if the character is boosted and the counter is not? Including using with boosts, right team mates, right TUs and eventually right supports? I can't think of anything like that where the player just can't win (lets define can't win at say you can't win more than 20% of the time since there is no 0% success rate combos).

KGB

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@LavaManLee said:

@dianetics said:
So to make a passive killer you need him to have a passive...that kills passives.
So when they go toe to toe who wins?

I am sure there are other ways to go at the passive meta, but strait denying passives probably just wont work and could potentially break the game.

Yeah, I would think it would have to be more of a fortified countdown tile or something. Fire 6 AP and get a countdown tile that, when on board, either doesn't allow passives or maybe you could target one toon on the opposing team that can't use passives while CD on board.

Technically something like this already exists now in the Away and Stun mechanics. You send her away / stun for X number of turns and during that time all her passives are 'off'.

KGB

Yep, exactly. What @LavaManLee is describing is just a worse version of Away or Stun, and we've already got plenty of those abilities.

At this point a passive shutdown guy would need to have that ability passively, and that ability is just too good. Look at all the characters people actually use -- m'Thor, Shang-Chi, Chasm, Omega Red, Colossus -- if you turn off their passives they're totally worthless. Chasm is basically just stunned!

If they gave us that guy he'd immediately become must-use on every team, in every event, which is exactly what he'd be meant to fix!

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
I really don't know what they'll do to counter m'Thor but I hope they keep trying. It needs to be a character that she can't beat, but I think anyone that she can't beat is going to be quite problematic in his own right.

Are there any actual absolute counters in the game now? Where if you use character X and the opposing team has character Y you can't beat them? Even if the character is boosted and the counter is not? Including using with boosts, right team mates, right TUs and eventually right supports? I can't think of anything like that where the player just can't win (lets define can't win at say you can't win more than 20% of the time since there is no 0% success rate combos).

KGB

Hulk/Scarlet Witch. I'm sure there are more but that's the one I always think of.

KGB

@entrailbucket said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
I really don't know what they'll do to counter m'Thor but I hope they keep trying. It needs to be a character that she can't beat, but I think anyone that she can't beat is going to be quite problematic in his own right.

Are there any actual absolute counters in the game now? Where if you use character X and the opposing team has character Y you can't beat them? Even if the character is boosted and the counter is not? Including using with boosts, right team mates, right TUs and eventually right supports? I can't think of anything like that where the player just can't win (lets define can't win at say you can't win more than 20% of the time since there is no 0% success rate combos).

KGB

Hulk/Scarlet Witch. I'm sure there are more but that's the one I always think of.

So you are saying iHulk teams can't beat Scarlet Witch teams? Even if you keep the manage the trigger for his passive so it doesn't activate and your other character can stun her or send her away etc? Maybe the win rate only 70 instead of 95+ but it's not like 20 or lower.

KGB

P.S. The evil side of me says the Devs could technically MThor usage without actually nerfing her stats. The evil method would be to introduce a 1-2 second more delay on her passives and actives firing when used by the player (AI control would remain same). That delay would infuriate players esp in the speed mode game of PvP and lessen her usage without it technically being a nerf

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
I really don't know what they'll do to counter m'Thor but I hope they keep trying. It needs to be a character that she can't beat, but I think anyone that she can't beat is going to be quite problematic in his own right.

Are there any actual absolute counters in the game now? Where if you use character X and the opposing team has character Y you can't beat them? Even if the character is boosted and the counter is not? Including using with boosts, right team mates, right TUs and eventually right supports? I can't think of anything like that where the player just can't win (lets define can't win at say you can't win more than 20% of the time since there is no 0% success rate combos).

KGB

Hulk/Scarlet Witch. I'm sure there are more but that's the one I always think of.

So you are saying iHulk teams can't beat Scarlet Witch teams? Even if you keep the manage the trigger for his passive so it doesn't activate and your other character can stun her or send her away etc? Maybe the win rate only 70 instead of 95+ but it's not like 20 or lower.

KGB

P.S. The evil side of me says the Devs could technically MThor usage without actually nerfing her stats. The evil method would be to introduce a 1-2 second more delay on her passives and actives firing when used by the player (AI control would remain same). That delay would infuriate players esp in the speed mode game of PvP and lessen her usage without it technically being a nerf

No, immortal hulk. When SW was released, the metagame was Hulk + booster, usually Okoye, and those teams just couldn't beat her at all. She drove them out of the metagame right away.

I really really don't want to turn another thread into a m'Thor debate though! This is about fun ascended characters!

WhiteBomber

How did this turn in to "that character would be too strong" when we already have Cosmo who does it and is still a pretty bad character? The ability doesn't have to be "I exist so all passives are disabled" rather ANYTHING better than what Cosmo currently does. There are at least 1000 ways that could be creatively handled with this games mechanics.

However! Professor X strikes me as a "I exist so your abilities should all be disabled" kinda guy (unless you have Magnetos helm).

Just for personal context, my comment is more global and not directly at MThor as I am one of the few who don't think she is crazy over the top.

dianetics

@KGB said
So you are saying iHulk teams can't beat Scarlet Witch teams? Even if you keep the manage the trigger for his passive so it doesn't activate and your other character can stun her or send her away etc? Maybe the win rate only 70 instead of 95+ but it's not like 20 or lower.

KGB

P.S. The evil side of me says the Devs could technically MThor usage without actually nerfing her stats. The evil method would be to introduce a 1-2 second more delay on her passives and actives firing when used by the player (AI control would remain same). That delay would infuriate players esp in the speed mode game of PvP and lessen her usage without it technically being a nerf

Steel Witch put HulkOyoye in the trash bin.
The day Wanda went into LL ihulk and okoye were dead.
Steelwitch was the wall for like 6 months, and pvp was ultra slow.

Hulk was the shot, but honestly Okoye never recovered. Hulk came around with Chasm, but Okoye never had another running mate in PvP after Wanda came around.

ThaRoadWarrior

You could make Thano5 purple a passive and it would shut it down. Or just reduce the cost to 3-5ap

KGB

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
You could make Thano5 purple a passive and it would shut it down. Or just reduce the cost to 3-5ap

This is the one I think makes the most sense. Leave the active part of his Purple as is (or make it last 5 turns at 5 covers) but add a passive part to the Purple that auto places it at Battle Start so that it's in play immediately. That would neuter her for several turns (until CD matched or expired) giving players a chance to get enough Purple to fire again.

KGB

KGB

@dianetics said:

@KGB said
So you are saying iHulk teams can't beat Scarlet Witch teams? Even if you keep the manage the trigger for his passive so it doesn't activate and your other character can stun her or send her away etc? Maybe the win rate only 70 instead of 95+ but it's not like 20 or lower.

KGB

P.S. The evil side of me says the Devs could technically MThor usage without actually nerfing her stats. The evil method would be to introduce a 1-2 second more delay on her passives and actives firing when used by the player (AI control would remain same). That delay would infuriate players esp in the speed mode game of PvP and lessen her usage without it technically being a nerf

Steel Witch put HulkOyoye in the trash bin.
The day Wanda went into LL ihulk and okoye were dead.
Steelwitch was the wall for like 6 months, and pvp was ultra slow.

Hulk was the shot, but honestly Okoye never recovered. Hulk came around with Chasm, but Okoye never had another running mate in PvP after Wanda came around.

That's one team specifically neutering one team. Not a character entirely neutering another character as EB was suggesting. What he is suggesting is something entirely different than what you guys both mentioned.

KGB