New Feature - Champions 2.0 (Live with R287)

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  • max5esq
    max5esq Posts: 58 Match Maker

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @max5esq said:
    I accidentally champed a 5 star around a month ago after years of soft capping so I just went ahead and champed like 40 of my 5 stars (I had all the meta fully covered at around 330), has made pve much faster, and PVP alot more annoying. Since more time and rewards go into pve I think it's better.

    Can I ask why it’s more annoying? I actually liked pvp better when I leapt. But that was in the Thor/Okoye meta. Is it because of DJ Chassy Chas?

    The number of weak teams I see is way smaller and non existent after 500 or so, almost everyone I see in 5 star land in pvp is using two of 6 characters per event. Requires more healthpacks and time to get an inferior result.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2023

    @entrailbucket said:

    @bbigler said:
    @entrailbucket
    I would like to get the input from a new player too see if that’s really true. As for me, I get far more 1-Star covers than any other type.

    Oh, me too! But it takes a lot of 1* covers to create a 550. I guess I'm not sure what you consider "new players?" I really don't think anyone but the grindiest grinders will get these guys maxed anytime soon.

    Well, “new” and “soon” are relative terms. I think people underestimate what a new player can do if they’re dedicated. I’ve tried to demonstrate this by posting my progress restarting the game. I consider “new” and “soon” to be anything under a year. So, can a new player get a 550 Spidey within a year? I think so….

    I haven’t tracked how many covers of each tier I get per week, so it’s hard to say how fast I could ascend. But here’s a guess, just a guess:

    Per Week:
    300 x 1-Star covers
    200 x 2-Star covers
    100 x 3-Star covers
    50 x 4-Star covers

    With that income, dividing by the number of characters in each tier:

    Per Week:
    1-Star = 37.5 covers per character
    2-Star = 15.4 covers per character
    3-Star = 1.7 covers per character
    4-Star = 0.35 covers per character

    So, how long does it take to reach 550?

    1-Star = 1,508 / 37.5 = 40.2 weeks
    2-Star = 1,404 / 15.4 = 91.2 weeks
    3-Star = 952 / 1.7 = 560 weeks! = 10+ yrs
    4-Star = 526 / 0.35 = 1,502 weeks!! = 28+ yrs

    Let’s assume you’re not starting from scratch and already have 1 Max & 1 Min of each character:

    1-Star = 1,482 / 37.5 = 39.5 weeks
    2-Star = 1,328 / 15.4 = 86.2 weeks
    3-Star = 826 / 1.7 = 485 weeks = 9 yrs
    4-Star = 400 / 0.35 = 1,142 weeks = 22 yrs

    Keep in mind new 3 & 4 Star characters will increase token dilution, but you can shard target 1 character over time.

    3-Stars: 10 shard covers per week
    = 826 / 11.7 = 70 weeks
    4-Stars: 5 shard covers per week
    = 400 / 5.35 = 74 weeks

    So, roughly in a year and a half we could all have 550’s from various tiers.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    I don't think a new player can get 50 4* covers per week, without some heavy spending and some... Not quite legal practices on vaults.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but I'm pretty sure it's going to take me a long time to start maxing out 1*, and I'm pretty sure most newer players don't play as much as I do. I would consider a year to be "a long time," fwiw.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    You are forgetting iso cost. And a new player never will be able to afford a million and half iso to ascend someone to lv 550.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Kolence
    You bring up a very good point, so I went back and calculated rewards again using a different hybrid approach where you use 2 max champs on the character that will be maxed in the next tier. But the “Min” character in the next tier would be built using the Max + Min method. The result? The rewards were significantly better for 3-stars but only marginally better for 2-stars in comparison to my Hybrid Approach #1.

    With this Hybrid Approach #2, you still get the character to 550 with the least amount of covers, but the rewards are better. My Hybrid Approach #1 does get you a little more rewards, but the character only reaches 534. You can certainly justify that 16 x 5-Star levels is worth more than those little extra rewards. Since this information is buried in this thread, I’ll start a new post to present my findings as simply as possible.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bad said:
    You are forgetting iso cost. And a new player never will be able to afford a million and half iso to ascend someone to lv 550.

    You don't need a million and a half ISO to ascend to 550. More like a half million and I can make that in a week.

  • meadowsweet
    meadowsweet Posts: 257 Mover and Shaker
    edited September 2023

    @bbigler said:
    Well, “new” and “soon” are relative terms. I think people underestimate what a new player can do if they’re dedicated. I’ve tried to demonstrate this by posting my progress restarting the game. I consider “new” and “soon” to be anything under a year. So, can a new player get a 550 Spidey within a year? I think so….

    A while back, I diligently kept track of every token & vault pull for a 31 day month and came up with the following pull rates. Note that this is only token or vault pulls, so no covers or shards received directly from progression, placement, champ rewards, quests, SHIELD re-supply, etc.:

    Tier Pulls per Week Characters Covers per Character Time to 550 All (in Months)
    1★ 46.0 7 1508 52
    2★ 119.2 13 1404 35
    3★ 44.8 59 952 289
    4★ 22.8 139 526 738
    5★ 3.8 87 113 595

    And these are the rewards I was getting as an experienced player, playing every event, with every required character. I'm very casual with my PVP play, not trying very hard and basically just skipping the current meta opponents.

  • Waddles_Pines
    Waddles_Pines Posts: 1,228 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bbigler said:
    @Kolence
    You bring up a very good point, so I went back and calculated rewards again using a different hybrid approach where you use 2 max champs on the character that will be maxed in the next tier. But the “Min” character in the next tier would be built using the Max + Min method. The result? The rewards were significantly better for 3-stars but only marginally better for 2-stars in comparison to my Hybrid Approach #1.

    With this Hybrid Approach #2, you still get the character to 550 with the least amount of covers, but the rewards are better. My Hybrid Approach #1 does get you a little more rewards, but the character only reaches 534. You can certainly justify that 16 x 5-Star levels is worth more than those little extra rewards. Since this information is buried in this thread, I’ll start a new post to present my findings as simply as possible.

    Thanks @bbigler. This thread is way too unwieldily to make sense of things. 🤣

  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 729 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2023

    New take on "best" rewards-based approach... this is a mix

    1-stars (3 powers only):
    16x max at 13 covers ascend to 8x 2-stars = 208 covers
    6x max 2-Stars = 300 covers - 2 extra than normal and 2x more bonus free champ rewards for no tax
    2x level 94 2-stars = 0 additional covers

    4x max 2s ascend to 2x lvl 191 3s + 300 (2x150) covers = 2x max 3 stars
    2x max + min 2s ascend to 2x 166 3 stars = 0 additional covers

    2x max + 2x min 3s ascend to 2x 270 4*s

    Choice now:
    normal progress - 300 covers to max 1 4* ascend and 400 covers to 550 = 1,508

    optional tax approach - 600 covers to max both 4* ascend to 475 5 star and now 300 covers to 550 = 1,708

    200 more 1 star covers to get a 2nd 4* maxed, equivalent to 20 more LT (10 LT + 260CP) + other 4* rewards along the way. This seems a like a good trade off for 1 star covers

    2-Stars:
    You can also do the 6x max 2stars approach and spend no extra covers, just gaining 2 lots of 2 star champ rewards as extra.
    Similarly at 4 star time you can do the same trade, 200 more 2 star covers for a 2nd 4 star rewards tree as additional. Perhaps more debatable given the extra time required compared to 1 star

    3-stars:
    max 3x and 1x min 3stars = 352 covers
    Ascend to a 303 4 star and 270 4 star
    needs 201 covers to take the 303 to 370
    ascend min + max 4 = 370 + 400 covers

    total = 953 covers, compare to 952 for agreed min approach.

    Apologies if others already stated this, but for any 1/2/3, to max a 2nd 4 star costs tax of NET 200 covers. 300 more when at 4 star 3:1 equivalence, and 100 less at 5 star as you now start at 475.

    NB - for 4 stars - Max-Max still seems best rewards based approach

  • BlixTheFrog
    BlixTheFrog Posts: 190 Tile Toppler

    I just made another calculus, so bear with me :
    If someone starts from scratch and pulls daily all tokens availables with a 95% ratio of "free" covers versus "bought" covers (meaning covers you won’t get just by playing), with a drop rate of 1 per 7 and a drift wind of 20 "miles" per hour (miles being the covers you got from rewards of other covers), and if the pull-back from LLs isn’t too drafty because you never know with this game, it appears that aside from community events, I have no idea at which point in this message you realized I was pulling your leg.

  • Druiz23
    Druiz23 Posts: 32 Just Dropped In

    At this point it’s more than just a “slight delay”. It’s days later. I would call this more of a “significant delay” in getting the update pushed.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,451 Chairperson of the Boards

    If its held up in Cert, they can't do anything but wait.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    If its held up in Cert, they can't do anything but wait.

    Maybe it already got rejected and they're working on resubmitting.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Punter1
    I agree. We came to the same conclusion independently - ascend with 2 max champs if that character will be maxed in the next tier; otherwise use the minimum. I think that’s the best approach and I’m calling it Hybrid #2 in my next post.

  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 729 Critical Contributor

    @bbigler said:
    @Punter1
    I agree. We came to the same conclusion independently - ascend with 2 max champs if that character will be maxed in the next tier; otherwise use the minimum. I think that’s the best approach and I’m calling it Hybrid #2 in my next post.

    Kinda - though you still lose out to conversion ratios as you ascend the tiers and can't quite follow that pattern for 1s & 2s as 3s when making 4s (I thought it would work but didn't)

    Best to save the tax on the 3>4 conversion, but it's a worthy tax > reward conversion when you are collecting 4* rewards with 1* & 2* covers

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bbigler said:

    @Bad said:
    You are forgetting iso cost. And a new player never will be able to afford a million and half iso to ascend someone to lv 550.

    You don't need a million and a half ISO to ascend to 550. More like a half million and I can make that in a week.

    You need a maxed 4* and a champed 4* to the bind. Each one of them costs 380k iso.
    760k iso and now add the 3* (100k to champ each one), 2* , and 1*.
    But for you the price is half a million.
    How a new player can obtain more than 1 million iso to spend it happily?

  • fnedude
    fnedude Posts: 386 Mover and Shaker

    "You need a maxed 4* and a champed 4* to the bind. Each one of them costs 380k iso.
    760k iso and now add the 3* (100k to champ each one), 2* , and 1*.
    But for you the price is half a million.
    How a new player can obtain more than 1 million iso to spend it happily?"

    A new player will not have earned enough 4* covers to champ a 2nd one.

    I've played 9yr 11mo and I only have about 1/4 of the 4*s with a dupe. I'm T100 PVE and T100 PVP, free to play.

    Newbies won't be worrying about ascending 4*s.

  • gamecat235
    gamecat235 Posts: 111 Tile Toppler
    edited September 2023

    @Bad said:

    @bbigler said:

    @Bad said:
    You are forgetting iso cost. And a new player never will be able to afford a million and half iso to ascend someone to lv 550.

    You don't need a million and a half ISO to ascend to 550. More like a half million and I can make that in a week.

    You need a maxed 4* and a champed 4* to the bind. Each one of them costs 380k iso.
    760k iso and now add the 3* (100k to champ each one), 2* , and 1*.
    But for you the price is half a million.
    How a new player can obtain more than 1 million iso to spend it happily?

    According to the original post it is a Maxed Champ and a max level non-champed character.

    From the original post:

    Binding

    To Ascend a character, you must combine a max level Championed character with a max level non-Championed duplicate of that character in a process known as Binding. Binding consumes the max level non-Champed character in order to Ascend the max level Championed character to the next rarity tier. You must Bind two duplicate characters of the same rarity to create an Ascended character of the next rarity tier.

    Note: The minimum requirement for Binding is a max level non-Champed duplicate but you can use a second Championed version of that character if you would like. Any extra covers you have on the second Championed character will roll over to the new Ascended character that is created.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2023

    @Bad @entrailbucket
    You don’t need to pay ISO leveling costs and champ fees in subsequent tiers. When ascending, they start as baby champs. So, you only need to pay for the base tier, everything else is “free”.

    So that means the costs are one of these:
    16 x max level 1-stars
    8 x 2-star champs
    4 x 3-Star champs
    2 x 4-Star champs

    None of those options get near 1 million

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