New Feature - Champions 2.0 (Live with R287)

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Comments

  • Ultrace
    Ultrace Posts: 16 Just Dropped In

    @entrailbucket said:
    You should play the game how YOU want. If someone says your preferred strategy isn't optimal, or you're worried you'll fall behind, who cares?

    Yeah, this has been my philosophy for the past five years or so. It's why I softcap all my heroes around 300, because the PvP game which waits beyond just isn't something I want. Alas, with up-tiered 5* characters starting at 450, I'll either have to give up the idea of taking any of my heroes tat far, or or be pushed beyond. We'll wait and see how I feel when I get 1* Spidey to 4*...

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,965 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    You should play the game how YOU want. If someone says your preferred strategy isn't optimal, or you're worried you'll fall behind, who cares?

    It seems you do since you get “frustrated” with players who play the game differently than you do. Though I don’t even know who you’re defending against exactly. Are any of these players hating on your strategy and moving goalposts actually here? Or are they like all the “top players” you know who agree with what you assert but also aren’t here? I just don’t like the “invisible army” schtick. Another famous departed posted did it All. The. Time. And it’s sort of pointless (because no one can argue with phantoms) and it often takes threads off-topic.

    @entrailbucket said:
    The next time somebody tries going into classics and it works for them, there'll be some reason why it only worked for them and couldn't possibly work for any other kind of player.

    In this case you’ve made up two fictional players just to have an argument. Fictional player A who in some unknown future will decide to go all in on classics and fictional player B who is attacking them and trying to prove you wrong.

    This isn’t that difficult. Classics are a better return on investment with regards to pure resources. Latests are better if you want to target dilution and have more concentrated pulls. This is not rocket science and the “optimal” strategy depend on your goals. For me I used classics for a long long time because I was in 4* land and rostering everyone was important for essentials. I then switched to Latests to keep up with new releases. Now I just am hoarding for special stores I like. Three different strategies. All perfectly fine for whatever my goals are/were at the time.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,965 Chairperson of the Boards

    @max5esq said:
    I accidentally champed a 5 star around a month ago after years of soft capping so I just went ahead and champed like 40 of my 5 stars (I had all the meta fully covered at around 330), has made pve much faster, and PVP alot more annoying. Since more time and rewards go into pve I think it's better.

    Can I ask why it’s more annoying? I actually liked pvp better when I leapt. But that was in the Thor/Okoye meta. Is it because of DJ Chassy Chas?

  • BlackBoltRocks
    BlackBoltRocks Posts: 1,187 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2023

    PVP is going to be very annoying now that anyone can be a 5. Winfinites that were previously only viable in lower tiers (2* Hawkeye/Magneto/Storm) or had a weak link (like 4* Polaris together with Bill and Jane/Kamala) will now be on a level playing field. All the Countdown spammers like 4* Captain Marvel, Coulson, Starlord, 5* Hawkeye, Sentry, maybe even WorthyCap, will see plenty of use. Characters with buffed match damage like America, M'Baku, Rhino, 4* Juggs. Your AP generators like 3* Wanda, 4* Vulture. We also finally have a web tile meta with Gwenom, Chasm, Miguel, Silk, Iron Spider, 4* Miles. Not sure how viable most 3* will be, but the recent ones like Omega Red, Arcade, High Evo, Magik will be forces to be reckoned with. Some of the older ones like Captain Marvel, Cyclops, Doom, Wanda, and of course IM40 will be great batteries. The 1* - 3* versions of Storm will be great with cascades. Might be enough to make one go PVE-only...

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2023

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @bbigler said:
    Eureka! I've got it! The best way to maximize champ rewards with ascending: the Max+Max ascending "tax" only applies in the next tier, NOT the tier you start from. Because of this, a Hybrid approach is best for 3-stars. Each tier is different, so here's the best method for each tier:

    4-Stars: 370+370
    3-Stars: 266+266 => 370+303
    2-Stars: 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271
    1-Stars: 50+50 => 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271

    =======================================================
    Using 957 x 3-star covers:

    Max+Min Approach => Go up to 550
    447,500 Iso-8
    25,300 Hero Points
    949 Command Points
    10 Heroic Token
    8 Mighty Token
    4 Classic Legends
    48 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 86

    Max+Max Approach => Go up to 501
    544,000 Iso-8
    13,600 Hero Points
    973 Command Points
    20 Heroic Token
    16 Mighty Token
    8 Classic Legends
    53 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 92

    Max+Max => Max+Min => Go up to 534
    528,500 Iso-8
    16,150 Hero Points
    963 Command Points
    20 Heroic Token
    16 Mighty Token
    8 Classic Legends
    55 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 94

    Wait. 266+266 is now optimal again?

    It’s optimal for 3-stars but not 1 & 2 stars because of the 2:1 cover ratio.

    Max + Max is not optimal for 2-stars because the 2-Star champ rewards are so inferior to the upper tiers.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BlackBoltRocks
    PVP variety is good not bad. Sure, teams will be harder because there’s more options, but there’s a counter to every team. No one is unbeatable. Plus, they may enable supports in PVP because the teams get harder. But everyone should calm down about this, it won’t change overnight.

  • Mrcl25
    Mrcl25 Posts: 138 Tile Toppler

    @bbigler said:
    Eureka! I've got it! The best way to maximize champ rewards with ascending: the Max+Max ascending "tax" only applies in the next tier, NOT the tier you start from. Because of this, a Hybrid approach is best for 3-stars. Each tier is different, so here's the best method for each tier:

    4-Stars: 370+370
    3-Stars: 266+266 => 370+303
    2-Stars: 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271
    1-Stars: 50+50 => 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271

    =======================================================
    Using 957 x 3-star covers:

    Max+Min Approach => Go up to 550
    447,500 Iso-8
    25,300 Hero Points
    949 Command Points
    10 Heroic Token
    8 Mighty Token
    4 Classic Legends
    48 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 86

    Max+Max Approach => Go up to 501
    544,000 Iso-8
    13,600 Hero Points
    973 Command Points
    20 Heroic Token
    16 Mighty Token
    8 Classic Legends
    53 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 92

    Max+Max => Max+Min => Go up to 534
    528,500 Iso-8
    16,150 Hero Points
    963 Command Points
    20 Heroic Token
    16 Mighty Token
    8 Classic Legends
    55 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 94

    Thank you for this. I think you should open a new thread with this info so it's easier to find and more people can see it.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daredevil217 I don't know where you've been, but every single time classics come up here they're relentlessly put down as suboptimal, worthless, etc. And bow was moving goalposts like 3 posts before mine -- did you see the parts where he said that nobody could do this besides me, then when roadwarrior showed up, that nobody could do it besides him?

    And the number of players here who'd agree with you that classics are a better return on investment in any situation is, like, 3. Maybe 4.

    I'm not frustrated that players don't agree with me, I don't care about that at all. Classics are a viable (and now potentially optimal) strategy that's absolutely on par with the latest/hoarding thing that everyone is doing, and I don't understand why folks continue to dismiss it out of hand.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Mrcl25 said:

    @bbigler said:
    Eureka! I've got it! The best way to maximize champ rewards with ascending: the Max+Max ascending "tax" only applies in the next tier, NOT the tier you start from. Because of this, a Hybrid approach is best for 3-stars. Each tier is different, so here's the best method for each tier:

    4-Stars: 370+370
    3-Stars: 266+266 => 370+303
    2-Stars: 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271
    1-Stars: 50+50 => 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271

    =======================================================
    Using 957 x 3-star covers:

    Max+Min Approach => Go up to 550
    447,500 Iso-8
    25,300 Hero Points
    949 Command Points
    10 Heroic Token
    8 Mighty Token
    4 Classic Legends
    48 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 86

    Max+Max Approach => Go up to 501
    544,000 Iso-8
    13,600 Hero Points
    973 Command Points
    20 Heroic Token
    16 Mighty Token
    8 Classic Legends
    53 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 92

    Max+Max => Max+Min => Go up to 534
    528,500 Iso-8
    16,150 Hero Points
    963 Command Points
    20 Heroic Token
    16 Mighty Token
    8 Classic Legends
    55 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 94

    Thank you for this. I think you should open a new thread with this info so it's easier to find and more people can see it.

    I would love to but not everyone listens to my advice. I’m afraid if I post too much information to prove my point no one will read it.

    But one thing does intrigue me about this new ascending reward system: how fast can a new player get a 550? And if they do, would they be the PVP target of every other 550 player with true 5-stars? Would they get discouraged and quit? Or sell off their 550’s?

    I like the idea of combining characters from any tier to form a viable team, but 1 & 2 stars will outpace the others to 550. So, does one need to softcap them to avoid ruining their MMR? Maybe common practice will become hoarding standards until you can take all 1-stars from your current MMR to 550 and then immediately sell them? The implications of this new system is very thought provoking.

  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BlackBoltRocks said:
    PVP is going to be very annoying now that anyone can be a 5. Winfinites that were previously only viable in lower tiers (2* Hawkeye/Magneto/Storm) or had a weak link (like 4* Polaris together with Bill and Jane/Kamala) will now be on a level playing field. All the Countdown spammers like 4* Captain Marvel, Coulson, Starlord, 5* Hawkeye, Sentry, maybe even WorthyCap, will see plenty of use. Characters with buffed match damage like America, M'Baku, Rhino, 4* Juggs. Your AP generators like 3* Wanda, 4* Vulture. We also finally have a web tile meta with Gwenom, Chasm, Miguel, Silk, Iron Spider, 4* Miles. Not sure how viable most 3* will be, but the recent ones like Omega Red, Arcade, High Evo, Magik will be forces to be reckoned with. Some of the older ones like Captain Marvel, Cyclops, Doom, Wanda, and of course IM40 will be great batteries. The 1* - 3* versions of Storm will be great with cascades. Might be enough to make one go PVE-only...

    Actually... Pvp will be alot better with more players "who believe" they have the roster to compete. More players means more points overall in the shard. Thinner friend walls, greater variety of ques, higher float points, etc ...

    To be fair, the worst case scenario, is that the same old whales get dozens of new 5* to start tinkering with. So its the same whales with new combos to wear themselves out on. (We all know the big whales can immediately merge their dual 370s for a 5* 475 day 1.) But if more people start playing more matches overall, that just makes pvp easier for the veteran placement player.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    @BlackBoltRocks said:
    PVP is going to be very annoying now that anyone can be a 5. Winfinites that were previously only viable in lower tiers ... will now be on a level playing field.

    The AI can't play those winfinites though.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bbigler said:

    @Mrcl25 said:

    @bbigler said:
    Eureka! I've got it! The best way to maximize champ rewards with ascending: the Max+Max ascending "tax" only applies in the next tier, NOT the tier you start from. Because of this, a Hybrid approach is best for 3-stars. Each tier is different, so here's the best method for each tier:

    4-Stars: 370+370
    3-Stars: 266+266 => 370+303
    2-Stars: 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271
    1-Stars: 50+50 => 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271

    =======================================================
    Using 957 x 3-star covers:

    Max+Min Approach => Go up to 550
    447,500 Iso-8
    25,300 Hero Points
    949 Command Points
    10 Heroic Token
    8 Mighty Token
    4 Classic Legends
    48 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 86

    Max+Max Approach => Go up to 501
    544,000 Iso-8
    13,600 Hero Points
    973 Command Points
    20 Heroic Token
    16 Mighty Token
    8 Classic Legends
    53 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 92

    Max+Max => Max+Min => Go up to 534
    528,500 Iso-8
    16,150 Hero Points
    963 Command Points
    20 Heroic Token
    16 Mighty Token
    8 Classic Legends
    55 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 94

    Thank you for this. I think you should open a new thread with this info so it's easier to find and more people can see it.

    I would love to but not everyone listens to my advice. I’m afraid if I post too much information to prove my point no one will read it.

    But one thing does intrigue me about this new ascending reward system: how fast can a new player get a 550? And if they do, would they be the PVP target of every other 550 player with true 5-stars? Would they get discouraged and quit? Or sell off their 550’s?

    I like the idea of combining characters from any tier to form a viable team, but 1 & 2 stars will outpace the others to 550. So, does one need to softcap them to avoid ruining their MMR? Maybe common practice will become hoarding standards until you can take all 1-stars from your current MMR to 550 and then immediately sell them? The implications of this new system is very thought provoking.

    I think it'd take them quite a while, because the best source of 1* covers is PvP fights -- and lots of them.

    Theoretically a new player who played a TON could get there relatively quickly. In practice, most new players don't grind PvP that way, either because the fights are really difficult for them, they don't know how the mechanics work, or both.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket
    I would like to get the input from a new player too see if that’s really true. As for me, I get far more 1-Star covers than any other type.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    I assume you'd get even more 1*s playing at a lower PvE level.

  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,811 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bbigler said:

    Thank you for this. I think you should open a new thread with this info so it's easier to find and more people can see it.

    I would love to but not everyone listens to my advice. I’m afraid if I post too much information to prove my point no one will read it.

    But one thing does intrigue me about this new ascending reward system: how fast can a new player get a 550? And if they do, would they be the PVP target of every other 550 player with true 5-stars? Would they get discouraged and quit? Or sell off their 550’s?

    I like the idea of combining characters from any tier to form a viable team, but 1 & 2 stars will outpace the others to 550. So, does one need to softcap them to avoid ruining their MMR? Maybe common practice will become hoarding standards until you can take all 1-stars from your current MMR to 550 and then immediately sell them? The implications of this new system is very thought provoking.

    I read it and took a screen shot for further use, so thank you so much for putting that time in.

    As for the MMR with 550, I agree. I could take my one stars to 550 but if it put's me into the sights of real 550 players I'd sell them. So I will wait and see and not take any of my characters above 500, in line with my current MMR.

    It's going to be a tiny kitty show until they sort out the MMR. Imagine this upcoming chavez pvp when a ton of your mmr has a 5* version. I think it's going to be very discouraging initially.

  • Punisher5784
    Punisher5784 Posts: 3,845 Chairperson of the Boards

    Looks like they forgot to repost this here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/89140/r287-slight-patch-delay#latest

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Punisher5784 said:
    Looks like they forgot to repost this here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/89140/r287-slight-patch-delay#latest

    "forgot", sure.

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor

    @bbigler said:

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @bbigler said:
    Eureka! I've got it! The best way to maximize champ rewards with ascending: the Max+Max ascending "tax" only applies in the next tier, NOT the tier you start from. Because of this, a Hybrid approach is best for 3-stars. Each tier is different, so here's the best method for each tier:

    4-Stars: 370+370
    3-Stars: 266+266 => 370+303
    2-Stars: 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271
    1-Stars: 50+50 => 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271

    =======================================================
    Using 957 x 3-star covers:

    Max+Min Approach => Go up to 550
    447,500 Iso-8
    25,300 Hero Points
    949 Command Points
    10 Heroic Token
    8 Mighty Token
    4 Classic Legends
    48 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 86

    Max+Max Approach => Go up to 501
    544,000 Iso-8
    13,600 Hero Points
    973 Command Points
    20 Heroic Token
    16 Mighty Token
    8 Classic Legends
    53 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 92

    Max+Max => Max+Min => Go up to 534
    528,500 Iso-8
    16,150 Hero Points
    963 Command Points
    20 Heroic Token
    16 Mighty Token
    8 Classic Legends
    55 Latest Legends
    CP + LT = 94

    Wait. 266+266 is now optimal again?

    It’s optimal for 3-stars but not 1 & 2 stars because of the 2:1 cover ratio.

    Max + Max is not optimal for 2-stars because the 2-Star champ rewards are so inferior to the upper tiers.

    Both starting from 1-stars or 2-stars, number of covers spent to reach one maxed 3-star remains the same, whether you make 2 maxed copies of a 2-star or just one. Because ascending to a maxed 2-star or simply max champing a 2-star takes 50 covers either way. You get an extra set of full 2-star champ rewards for waiting longer to ascend to the 3-star. In case of 2-star covers, you also pay the champing fee an extra time. Which is still less Iso-8 than you get from that 2nd set of champ rewards.

    After writing all that above, it occurred to me you may have been saying "Max + Max [3-stars] is not optimal with 2-stars because..." But in that case, for extra 100 2-star covers (it takes actually longer to ascend to 4-star), you get an extra set of 3-star champ rewards. Those are still better than two sets of 2-star champ rewards.

    Any which way you look, waiting to max champ a pair of copies before ascending further returns more overall stuff from champ rewards. It just may take longer at higher ascensions relative to the covers' (starting? native?) tier. For 1*s though, I don't think it will matter very much. Those should be going up the ladders pretty quickly... :)

    P. S.
    We really should settle on some terminology to use, as I may have still misread what you wrote, even though I'm pretty sure I grasp how all this is supposed to work, by now. Of course, when it goes live, it might still surprise us in all kinds of way, but I don't wanna go there... :D

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @bbigler said:

    Thank you for this. I think you should open a new thread with this info so it's easier to find and more people can see it.

    I would love to but not everyone listens to my advice. I’m afraid if I post too much information to prove my point no one will read it.

    But one thing does intrigue me about this new ascending reward system: how fast can a new player get a 550? And if they do, would they be the PVP target of every other 550 player with true 5-stars? Would they get discouraged and quit? Or sell off their 550’s?

    I like the idea of combining characters from any tier to form a viable team, but 1 & 2 stars will outpace the others to 550. So, does one need to softcap them to avoid ruining their MMR? Maybe common practice will become hoarding standards until you can take all 1-stars from your current MMR to 550 and then immediately sell them? The implications of this new system is very thought provoking.

    I read it and took a screen shot for further use, so thank you so much for putting that time in.

    As for the MMR with 550, I agree. I could take my one stars to 550 but if it put's me into the sights of real 550 players I'd sell them. So I will wait and see and not take any of my characters above 500, in line with my current MMR.

    It's going to be a tiny kitty show until they sort out the MMR. Imagine this upcoming chavez pvp when a ton of your mmr has a 5* version. I think it's going to be very discouraging initially.

    I plan on selling the 1-star at max champ 4-star level. The iso returns should be the best at that point. And I need the iso again. Dropped from 6 million to under 100k, from making 4-star dupes. Which were about to start returning some iso finally, relatively soon-ish? But now won't, unless I don't want to ascend that character. Eh... only a handful between 310-330 and Medusa at 345. The rest are under 300. And those higher were all bonused or targeted at some point. Might not have ben so soon-ish anyway. :D

    Higher rarities would take so much time for my roster currently, that I'll just be happy to ascend them when possible and start getting the next tier rewards. While enjoying more of my roster by having extra team combinations, hopefully.

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