New Feature - Champions 2.0 (Live with R287)

Mrcl25

@bbigler said:
Eureka! I've got it! The best way to maximize champ rewards with ascending: the Max+Max ascending "tax" only applies in the next tier, NOT the tier you start from. Because of this, a Hybrid approach is best for 3-stars. Each tier is different, so here's the best method for each tier:

4-Stars: 370+370
3-Stars: 266+266 => 370+303
2-Stars: 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271
1-Stars: 50+50 => 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271

=======================================================
Using 957 x 3-star covers:

Max+Min Approach => Go up to 550
447,500 Iso-8
25,300 Hero Points
949 Command Points
10 Heroic Token
8 Mighty Token
4 Classic Legends
48 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 86

Max+Max Approach => Go up to 501
544,000 Iso-8
13,600 Hero Points
973 Command Points
20 Heroic Token
16 Mighty Token
8 Classic Legends
53 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 92

Max+Max => Max+Min => Go up to 534
528,500 Iso-8
16,150 Hero Points
963 Command Points
20 Heroic Token
16 Mighty Token
8 Classic Legends
55 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 94

Thank you for this. I think you should open a new thread with this info so it's easier to find and more people can see it.

entrailbucket

@Daredevil217 I don't know where you've been, but every single time classics come up here they're relentlessly put down as suboptimal, worthless, etc. And bow was moving goalposts like 3 posts before mine -- did you see the parts where he said that nobody could do this besides me, then when roadwarrior showed up, that nobody could do it besides him?

And the number of players here who'd agree with you that classics are a better return on investment in any situation is, like, 3. Maybe 4.

I'm not frustrated that players don't agree with me, I don't care about that at all. Classics are a viable (and now potentially optimal) strategy that's absolutely on par with the latest/hoarding thing that everyone is doing, and I don't understand why folks continue to dismiss it out of hand.

bbigler

@Mrcl25 said:

@bbigler said:
Eureka! I've got it! The best way to maximize champ rewards with ascending: the Max+Max ascending "tax" only applies in the next tier, NOT the tier you start from. Because of this, a Hybrid approach is best for 3-stars. Each tier is different, so here's the best method for each tier:

4-Stars: 370+370
3-Stars: 266+266 => 370+303
2-Stars: 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271
1-Stars: 50+50 => 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271

=======================================================
Using 957 x 3-star covers:

Max+Min Approach => Go up to 550
447,500 Iso-8
25,300 Hero Points
949 Command Points
10 Heroic Token
8 Mighty Token
4 Classic Legends
48 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 86

Max+Max Approach => Go up to 501
544,000 Iso-8
13,600 Hero Points
973 Command Points
20 Heroic Token
16 Mighty Token
8 Classic Legends
53 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 92

Max+Max => Max+Min => Go up to 534
528,500 Iso-8
16,150 Hero Points
963 Command Points
20 Heroic Token
16 Mighty Token
8 Classic Legends
55 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 94

Thank you for this. I think you should open a new thread with this info so it's easier to find and more people can see it.

I would love to but not everyone listens to my advice. I’m afraid if I post too much information to prove my point no one will read it.

But one thing does intrigue me about this new ascending reward system: how fast can a new player get a 550? And if they do, would they be the PVP target of every other 550 player with true 5-stars? Would they get discouraged and quit? Or sell off their 550’s?

I like the idea of combining characters from any tier to form a viable team, but 1 & 2 stars will outpace the others to 550. So, does one need to softcap them to avoid ruining their MMR? Maybe common practice will become hoarding standards until you can take all 1-stars from your current MMR to 550 and then immediately sell them? The implications of this new system is very thought provoking.

Phumade

@BlackBoltRocks said:
PVP is going to be very annoying now that anyone can be a 5. Winfinites that were previously only viable in lower tiers (2* Hawkeye/Magneto/Storm) or had a weak link (like 4* Polaris together with Bill and Jane/Kamala) will now be on a level playing field. All the Countdown spammers like 4* Captain Marvel, Coulson, Starlord, 5* Hawkeye, Sentry, maybe even WorthyCap, will see plenty of use. Characters with buffed match damage like America, M'Baku, Rhino, 4* Juggs. Your AP generators like 3* Wanda, 4* Vulture. We also finally have a web tile meta with Gwenom, Chasm, Miguel, Silk, Iron Spider, 4* Miles. Not sure how viable most 3* will be, but the recent ones like Omega Red, Arcade, High Evo, Magik will be forces to be reckoned with. Some of the older ones like Captain Marvel, Cyclops, Doom, Wanda, and of course IM40 will be great batteries. The 1* - 3* versions of Storm will be great with cascades. Might be enough to make one go PVE-only...

Actually... Pvp will be alot better with more players "who believe" they have the roster to compete. More players means more points overall in the shard. Thinner friend walls, greater variety of ques, higher float points, etc ...

To be fair, the worst case scenario, is that the same old whales get dozens of new 5* to start tinkering with. So its the same whales with new combos to wear themselves out on. (We all know the big whales can immediately merge their dual 370s for a 5* 475 day 1.) But if more people start playing more matches overall, that just makes pvp easier for the veteran placement player.

DrClever

@BlackBoltRocks said:
PVP is going to be very annoying now that anyone can be a 5. Winfinites that were previously only viable in lower tiers ... will now be on a level playing field.

The AI can't play those winfinites though.

entrailbucket

@bbigler said:

@Mrcl25 said:

@bbigler said:
Eureka! I've got it! The best way to maximize champ rewards with ascending: the Max+Max ascending "tax" only applies in the next tier, NOT the tier you start from. Because of this, a Hybrid approach is best for 3-stars. Each tier is different, so here's the best method for each tier:

4-Stars: 370+370
3-Stars: 266+266 => 370+303
2-Stars: 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271
1-Stars: 50+50 => 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271

=======================================================
Using 957 x 3-star covers:

Max+Min Approach => Go up to 550
447,500 Iso-8
25,300 Hero Points
949 Command Points
10 Heroic Token
8 Mighty Token
4 Classic Legends
48 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 86

Max+Max Approach => Go up to 501
544,000 Iso-8
13,600 Hero Points
973 Command Points
20 Heroic Token
16 Mighty Token
8 Classic Legends
53 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 92

Max+Max => Max+Min => Go up to 534
528,500 Iso-8
16,150 Hero Points
963 Command Points
20 Heroic Token
16 Mighty Token
8 Classic Legends
55 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 94

Thank you for this. I think you should open a new thread with this info so it's easier to find and more people can see it.

I would love to but not everyone listens to my advice. I’m afraid if I post too much information to prove my point no one will read it.

But one thing does intrigue me about this new ascending reward system: how fast can a new player get a 550? And if they do, would they be the PVP target of every other 550 player with true 5-stars? Would they get discouraged and quit? Or sell off their 550’s?

I like the idea of combining characters from any tier to form a viable team, but 1 & 2 stars will outpace the others to 550. So, does one need to softcap them to avoid ruining their MMR? Maybe common practice will become hoarding standards until you can take all 1-stars from your current MMR to 550 and then immediately sell them? The implications of this new system is very thought provoking.

I think it'd take them quite a while, because the best source of 1* covers is PvP fights -- and lots of them.

Theoretically a new player who played a TON could get there relatively quickly. In practice, most new players don't grind PvP that way, either because the fights are really difficult for them, they don't know how the mechanics work, or both.

bbigler

@entrailbucket
I would like to get the input from a new player too see if that’s really true. As for me, I get far more 1-Star covers than any other type.

DrClever

I assume you'd get even more 1*s playing at a lower PvE level.

Punisher5784

Looks like they forgot to repost this here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/89140/r287-slight-patch-delay#latest

Bowgentle

@Punisher5784 said:
Looks like they forgot to repost this here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/89140/r287-slight-patch-delay#latest

"forgot", sure.

Kolence

@bbigler said:

@Daredevil217 said:

@bbigler said:
Eureka! I've got it! The best way to maximize champ rewards with ascending: the Max+Max ascending "tax" only applies in the next tier, NOT the tier you start from. Because of this, a Hybrid approach is best for 3-stars. Each tier is different, so here's the best method for each tier:

4-Stars: 370+370
3-Stars: 266+266 => 370+303
2-Stars: 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271
1-Stars: 50+50 => 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271

=======================================================
Using 957 x 3-star covers:

Max+Min Approach => Go up to 550
447,500 Iso-8
25,300 Hero Points
949 Command Points
10 Heroic Token
8 Mighty Token
4 Classic Legends
48 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 86

Max+Max Approach => Go up to 501
544,000 Iso-8
13,600 Hero Points
973 Command Points
20 Heroic Token
16 Mighty Token
8 Classic Legends
53 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 92

Max+Max => Max+Min => Go up to 534
528,500 Iso-8
16,150 Hero Points
963 Command Points
20 Heroic Token
16 Mighty Token
8 Classic Legends
55 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 94

Wait. 266+266 is now optimal again?

It’s optimal for 3-stars but not 1 & 2 stars because of the 2:1 cover ratio.

Max + Max is not optimal for 2-stars because the 2-Star champ rewards are so inferior to the upper tiers.

Both starting from 1-stars or 2-stars, number of covers spent to reach one maxed 3-star remains the same, whether you make 2 maxed copies of a 2-star or just one. Because ascending to a maxed 2-star or simply max champing a 2-star takes 50 covers either way. You get an extra set of full 2-star champ rewards for waiting longer to ascend to the 3-star. In case of 2-star covers, you also pay the champing fee an extra time. Which is still less Iso-8 than you get from that 2nd set of champ rewards.

After writing all that above, it occurred to me you may have been saying "Max + Max [3-stars] is not optimal with 2-stars because..." But in that case, for extra 100 2-star covers (it takes actually longer to ascend to 4-star), you get an extra set of 3-star champ rewards. Those are still better than two sets of 2-star champ rewards.

Any which way you look, waiting to max champ a pair of copies before ascending further returns more overall stuff from champ rewards. It just may take longer at higher ascensions relative to the covers' (starting? native?) tier. For 1*s though, I don't think it will matter very much. Those should be going up the ladders pretty quickly...

P. S.
We really should settle on some terminology to use, as I may have still misread what you wrote, even though I'm pretty sure I grasp how all this is supposed to work, by now. Of course, when it goes live, it might still surprise us in all kinds of way, but I don't wanna go there...

Kolence

@Tony_Foot said:

@bbigler said:

Thank you for this. I think you should open a new thread with this info so it's easier to find and more people can see it.

I would love to but not everyone listens to my advice. I’m afraid if I post too much information to prove my point no one will read it.

But one thing does intrigue me about this new ascending reward system: how fast can a new player get a 550? And if they do, would they be the PVP target of every other 550 player with true 5-stars? Would they get discouraged and quit? Or sell off their 550’s?

I like the idea of combining characters from any tier to form a viable team, but 1 & 2 stars will outpace the others to 550. So, does one need to softcap them to avoid ruining their MMR? Maybe common practice will become hoarding standards until you can take all 1-stars from your current MMR to 550 and then immediately sell them? The implications of this new system is very thought provoking.

I read it and took a screen shot for further use, so thank you so much for putting that time in.

As for the MMR with 550, I agree. I could take my one stars to 550 but if it put's me into the sights of real 550 players I'd sell them. So I will wait and see and not take any of my characters above 500, in line with my current MMR.

It's going to be a tiny kitty show until they sort out the MMR. Imagine this upcoming chavez pvp when a ton of your mmr has a 5* version. I think it's going to be very discouraging initially.

I plan on selling the 1-star at max champ 4-star level. The iso returns should be the best at that point. And I need the iso again. Dropped from 6 million to under 100k, from making 4-star dupes. Which were about to start returning some iso finally, relatively soon-ish? But now won't, unless I don't want to ascend that character. Eh... only a handful between 310-330 and Medusa at 345. The rest are under 300. And those higher were all bonused or targeted at some point. Might not have ben so soon-ish anyway.

Higher rarities would take so much time for my roster currently, that I'll just be happy to ascend them when possible and start getting the next tier rewards. While enjoying more of my roster by having extra team combinations, hopefully.

Kolence

@BlackBoltRocks said:
PVP is going to be very annoying now that anyone can be a 5. Winfinites that were previously only viable in lower tiers (2* Hawkeye/Magneto/Storm) or had a weak link (like 4* Polaris together with Bill and Jane/Kamala) will now be on a level playing field. All the Countdown spammers like 4* Captain Marvel, Coulson, Starlord, 5* Hawkeye, Sentry, maybe even WorthyCap, will see plenty of use. Characters with buffed match damage like America, M'Baku, Rhino, 4* Juggs. Your AP generators like 3* Wanda, 4* Vulture. We also finally have a web tile meta with Gwenom, Chasm, Miguel, Silk, Iron Spider, 4* Miles. Not sure how viable most 3* will be, but the recent ones like Omega Red, Arcade, High Evo, Magik will be forces to be reckoned with. Some of the older ones like Captain Marvel, Cyclops, Doom, Wanda, and of course IM40 will be great batteries. The 1* - 3* versions of Storm will be great with cascades. Might be enough to make one go PVE-only...

I wonder if Worthy Cap with someone to resist the damage (Colossus, Wanda, Rogue?) would be enough to actually punish Mighty Thor's incessant cascading...
Not sure Countdown makers will be able to resist Thor either, unless maybe with Hawkeye or Goblin to keep fortifying the tiles.

slidecage

Do they know when this is coming... forgot i got like almost 8k tokens saved

ThaRoadWarrior

@Kolence said:

@BlackBoltRocks said:
PVP is going to be very annoying now that anyone can be a 5. Winfinites that were previously only viable in lower tiers (2* Hawkeye/Magneto/Storm) or had a weak link (like 4* Polaris together with Bill and Jane/Kamala) will now be on a level playing field. All the Countdown spammers like 4* Captain Marvel, Coulson, Starlord, 5* Hawkeye, Sentry, maybe even WorthyCap, will see plenty of use. Characters with buffed match damage like America, M'Baku, Rhino, 4* Juggs. Your AP generators like 3* Wanda, 4* Vulture. We also finally have a web tile meta with Gwenom, Chasm, Miguel, Silk, Iron Spider, 4* Miles. Not sure how viable most 3* will be, but the recent ones like Omega Red, Arcade, High Evo, Magik will be forces to be reckoned with. Some of the older ones like Captain Marvel, Cyclops, Doom, Wanda, and of course IM40 will be great batteries. The 1* - 3* versions of Storm will be great with cascades. Might be enough to make one go PVE-only...

I wonder if Worthy Cap with someone to resist the damage (Colossus, Wanda, Rogue?) would be enough to actually punish Mighty Thor's incessant cascading...
Not sure Countdown makers will be able to resist Thor either, unless maybe with Hawkeye or Goblin to keep fortifying the tiles.

Maybe lean in and bring hydra stomper, xfdp, or 3* hulk, or red hulk so those cascades just make more CDs

rainkingucd

@ThaRoadWarrior said:

@Kolence said:

@BlackBoltRocks said:
PVP is going to be very annoying now that anyone can be a 5. Winfinites that were previously only viable in lower tiers (2* Hawkeye/Magneto/Storm) or had a weak link (like 4* Polaris together with Bill and Jane/Kamala) will now be on a level playing field. All the Countdown spammers like 4* Captain Marvel, Coulson, Starlord, 5* Hawkeye, Sentry, maybe even WorthyCap, will see plenty of use. Characters with buffed match damage like America, M'Baku, Rhino, 4* Juggs. Your AP generators like 3* Wanda, 4* Vulture. We also finally have a web tile meta with Gwenom, Chasm, Miguel, Silk, Iron Spider, 4* Miles. Not sure how viable most 3* will be, but the recent ones like Omega Red, Arcade, High Evo, Magik will be forces to be reckoned with. Some of the older ones like Captain Marvel, Cyclops, Doom, Wanda, and of course IM40 will be great batteries. The 1* - 3* versions of Storm will be great with cascades. Might be enough to make one go PVE-only...

I wonder if Worthy Cap with someone to resist the damage (Colossus, Wanda, Rogue?) would be enough to actually punish Mighty Thor's incessant cascading...
Not sure Countdown makers will be able to resist Thor either, unless maybe with Hawkeye or Goblin to keep fortifying the tiles.

Maybe lean in and bring hydra stomper, xfdp, or 3* hulk, or red hulk so those cascades just make more CDs

XFDP is an interesting case, and now I'm thinking who benefits from not ascending. There are a few of those 4* that saw use in transition phases because they were so effective against 5* at the 4* level (i.e. Bishop, Worthy Cap). Would XFDP be a good character to ascend? Will his 5* powers make him effectively useless if his black doesn't trigger on every 5* match? a la 3* Hulk and Red Hulk as well

entrailbucket

@bbigler said:
@entrailbucket
I would like to get the input from a new player too see if that’s really true. As for me, I get far more 1-Star covers than any other type.

Oh, me too! But it takes a lot of 1* covers to create a 550. I guess I'm not sure what you consider "new players?" I really don't think anyone but the grindiest grinders will get these guys maxed anytime soon.

Pottsie1980

Valkyrie is another character that may lose her main input if ascended. The target to generate ap may push too high to activate most turns. Guess we wait until her pvp and see how others are faring.

ThaRoadWarrior

Yes there are a ton of powers that get worse as the character gets better, and those powers need a good hard looking at across the board from Odin on down.

ThaRoadWarrior

I am fairly confident that 5* Nico is going to be head and shoulders better than Kitty level on level because she can bulk raise everything rather than being limited. I think people may be surprised to see the special pump meta return for a minute or two.