New Feature - Champions 2.0 (Live with R287)

Bowgentle

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
I am fairly confident that 5* Nico is going to be head and shoulders better than Kitty level on level because she can bulk raise everything rather than being limited. I think people may be surprised to see the special pump meta return for a minute or two.

Jane: "Hold my Mjolnir"

ThaRoadWarrior

Polaris + Carbage: don’t mind if I do. Actually once Lockjaw hits the ascendancy train, I'll be very curious to see what he does as a 5* to defend your SAP-spam. Or Medusa right away I guess.

BobDucca

@bbigler said:
Eureka! I've got it! The best way to maximize champ rewards with ascending: the Max+Max ascending "tax" only applies in the next tier, NOT the tier you start from. Because of this, a Hybrid approach is best for 3-stars. Each tier is different, so here's the best method for each tier:

4-Stars: 370+370
3-Stars: 266+266 => 370+303
2-Stars: 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271
1-Stars: 50+50 => 144+94 => 266+167 => 370+271

=======================================================
Using 957 x 3-star covers:

Max+Min Approach => Go up to 550
447,500 Iso-8
25,300 Hero Points
949 Command Points
10 Heroic Token
8 Mighty Token
4 Classic Legends
48 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 86

Max+Max Approach => Go up to 501
544,000 Iso-8
13,600 Hero Points
973 Command Points
20 Heroic Token
16 Mighty Token
8 Classic Legends
53 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 92

Max+Max => Max+Min => Go up to 534
528,500 Iso-8
16,150 Hero Points
963 Command Points
20 Heroic Token
16 Mighty Token
8 Classic Legends
55 Latest Legends
CP + LT = 94

As others have said, thank you for all of your thoughts shared in this thread. I particularly appreciate the insight that even if you want to go Min/Max, it's likely worth champing and getting the LTs at 167/271 (or potentially other specific champ rewards if desired).

With that said, while it does look like the math above is correct, and using 957 covers is what it takes to 'optimally' get a 3-star to 550 using Min/Max, it does seem like that is a fairly arbitrary number of covers to use as 'the best way' to maximize rewards. One thing it does is overly skew the return from 501 to 534/550 for any method that doesn't reach those levels as the rewards at the end are just so high. And it's not like after 957 covers people will stop getting covers (of course, that's a ton of covers already and many/most will never get there at all!).

I am trying to think about it similarly but also slightly differently. It takes 957 covers to 'optimally Max/Min' and 1152 to 'fully Max/Max'. What is the best way to spend those next 195 covers? Is it starting a new ascended dupe? Is it selling 3* maxed champs? OR, could it actually be getting the champ rewards from going Max/Max? Curious if you have thought of using a different number of covers than 957 (or 'time horizon'), as even using 1152 may overly skew the return in favor of the Max/Max method, as in that case, the ROI of those last few covers will be the highest possible. Thanks again for sharing all your thoughts and math!

Borstock

As always, I'm really glad they came up with the dumbest and most confusing way possible to add a new feature into the game. Twenty-nine pages in and we still don't appear to have a consensus on the best way to do any of this nonsense.

...in a Match-3 game.

BlixTheFrog

@Borstock said:
As always, I'm really glad they came up with the dumbest and most confusing way possible to add a new feature into the game. Twenty-nine pages in and we still don't appear to have a consensus on the best way to do any of this nonsense.

...in a Match-3 game.

Well if it was just a match-3 game we wouldn’t still be playing that I think. Took me three months to grow out of Candy Crush.

Bowgentle

@BlixTheFrog said:

@Borstock said:
As always, I'm really glad they came up with the dumbest and most confusing way possible to add a new feature into the game. Twenty-nine pages in and we still don't appear to have a consensus on the best way to do any of this nonsense.

...in a Match-3 game.

Well if it was just a match-3 game we wouldn’t still be playing that I think. Took me three months to grow out of Candy Crush.

Ah but imagine they had released a new character to play as in Candy Crush every month!

DrClever

@Borstock said:
Twenty-nine pages in and we still don't appear to have a consensus on the best way to do any of this nonsense.

Good?

If something's obvious everyone does it and the obligation to actually think (as well as the opportunity to gain a competitive advatage as a result) is lost.

As Blix says, if this was just a dumb match 3 game it wouldn't hold everyone's interest.

Borstock

@DrClever said:

@Borstock said:
Twenty-nine pages in and we still don't appear to have a consensus on the best way to do any of this nonsense.

Good?

If something's obvious everyone does it and the obligation to actually think (as well as the opportunity to gain a competitive advatage as a result) is lost.

As Blix says, if this was just a dumb match 3 game it wouldn't hold everyone's interest.

There's a difference between two different players having different strategies and two different players believing the system works in two different ways with neither of them knowing if they're right or if it's even the way the devs intend the system to function.

This game is not "more than a simple Match-3 game" because people don't know how the heck it works.

Jacklag

@JHawkInc said:
This is completely bonkers and I am here for it.

One note though. If you have a 266 Doctor Strange and a 166 Doctor Strange and 100 covers, won’t you get more rewards from leveling the 166 to 266 and then Binding them, as opposed to Ascending to 4-Star and applying the covers afterwards? So the longer you put it off, the more overall rewards you’ll get?

Sounds like someone went to business school.

entrailbucket

@DrClever said:

@Borstock said:
Twenty-nine pages in and we still don't appear to have a consensus on the best way to do any of this nonsense.

Good?

If something's obvious everyone does it and the obligation to actually think (as well as the opportunity to gain a competitive advatage as a result) is lost.

As Blix says, if this was just a dumb match 3 game it wouldn't hold everyone's interest.

I agree with this and I'll go one further -- it's better still if there are multiple ways to do things, that are all equally optimal, so players can choose the strategy they enjoy using the most.

liminal_lad

@ArchusMonk said:

@liminal_lad said:

@LavaManLee said:

@ThaRoadWarrior said:

@LavaManLee said:
Apologies but even after 19 pages, I still have some basic questions. Here is something I still don't get and hoping it is clear:

• I have two 4* Polaris at 370
• If I "ascend" them into a 5Polaris4, can I use that character in the required 4* for the current PVE? Or do I need to have a "pure" 4*Polaris to use?

Thanks in adanvce!

They've said there are currently no nodes in the game programmed to require Polaris (Lorna Dane) to be 4* Polaris (lorna dane), but that the technology to require that in future could be rolled out. so you will be able to use the character with that name anywhere they are required, even required character PVP.

Thanks. Polaris was just my example.

I guess the overall question is whether those required nodes in PVE require a "pure" 4* (or 3*) or if an Ascended one works in those nodes?

They will not work in Deadpool nodes as their original star level.

We’ll see how it actually plays in game, but the INTENT of the devs is that a PVE node is either level specific or character specific. That means if you ascend 2* Storm to 2Storm3, you can no longer use her in the DDQ node that requires 2* characters. However, you would be able to use her in the 4-3-2 node if she is the required 2 because that node doesn’t specify a level just a specific Storm. Again, implemented code does not always follow what the devs intend, but that was IceX’s answer when I asked pretty much this specific question.

That's also what I said. But thanks for adding additional context.

DrClever

@Borstock said:
This game is not "more than a simple Match-3 game" because people don't know how the heck it works.

Well, it is though, isn't it?

At the very least that makes it a complicated Match-3 game, or possibly a simple Match-3 game with some complicated additions, either way counts.

But logic and uncontestable correctness aside, I was, and generally am being, slightly facetious if not more so.

If these forums have a mute option I'd heartily recommend using it on my posts. Goodness knows I wouldn't read them.

max5esq

@Daredevil217 said:

@max5esq said:
I accidentally champed a 5 star around a month ago after years of soft capping so I just went ahead and champed like 40 of my 5 stars (I had all the meta fully covered at around 330), has made pve much faster, and PVP alot more annoying. Since more time and rewards go into pve I think it's better.

Can I ask why it’s more annoying? I actually liked pvp better when I leapt. But that was in the Thor/Okoye meta. Is it because of DJ Chassy Chas?

The number of weak teams I see is way smaller and non existent after 500 or so, almost everyone I see in 5 star land in pvp is using two of 6 characters per event. Requires more healthpacks and time to get an inferior result.

bbigler

@entrailbucket said:

@bbigler said:
@entrailbucket
I would like to get the input from a new player too see if that’s really true. As for me, I get far more 1-Star covers than any other type.

Oh, me too! But it takes a lot of 1* covers to create a 550. I guess I'm not sure what you consider "new players?" I really don't think anyone but the grindiest grinders will get these guys maxed anytime soon.

Well, “new” and “soon” are relative terms. I think people underestimate what a new player can do if they’re dedicated. I’ve tried to demonstrate this by posting my progress restarting the game. I consider “new” and “soon” to be anything under a year. So, can a new player get a 550 Spidey within a year? I think so….

I haven’t tracked how many covers of each tier I get per week, so it’s hard to say how fast I could ascend. But here’s a guess, just a guess:

Per Week:
300 x 1-Star covers
200 x 2-Star covers
100 x 3-Star covers
50 x 4-Star covers

With that income, dividing by the number of characters in each tier:

Per Week:
1-Star = 37.5 covers per character
2-Star = 15.4 covers per character
3-Star = 1.7 covers per character
4-Star = 0.35 covers per character

So, how long does it take to reach 550?

1-Star = 1,508 / 37.5 = 40.2 weeks
2-Star = 1,404 / 15.4 = 91.2 weeks
3-Star = 952 / 1.7 = 560 weeks! = 10+ yrs
4-Star = 526 / 0.35 = 1,502 weeks!! = 28+ yrs

Let’s assume you’re not starting from scratch and already have 1 Max & 1 Min of each character:

1-Star = 1,482 / 37.5 = 39.5 weeks
2-Star = 1,328 / 15.4 = 86.2 weeks
3-Star = 826 / 1.7 = 485 weeks = 9 yrs
4-Star = 400 / 0.35 = 1,142 weeks = 22 yrs

Keep in mind new 3 & 4 Star characters will increase token dilution, but you can shard target 1 character over time.

3-Stars: 10 shard covers per week
= 826 / 11.7 = 70 weeks
4-Stars: 5 shard covers per week
= 400 / 5.35 = 74 weeks

So, roughly in a year and a half we could all have 550’s from various tiers.

Bowgentle

I don't think a new player can get 50 4* covers per week, without some heavy spending and some... Not quite legal practices on vaults.

entrailbucket

I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but I'm pretty sure it's going to take me a long time to start maxing out 1*, and I'm pretty sure most newer players don't play as much as I do. I would consider a year to be "a long time," fwiw.

Bad

You are forgetting iso cost. And a new player never will be able to afford a million and half iso to ascend someone to lv 550.

bbigler

@Kolence
You bring up a very good point, so I went back and calculated rewards again using a different hybrid approach where you use 2 max champs on the character that will be maxed in the next tier. But the “Min” character in the next tier would be built using the Max + Min method. The result? The rewards were significantly better for 3-stars but only marginally better for 2-stars in comparison to my Hybrid Approach #1.

With this Hybrid Approach #2, you still get the character to 550 with the least amount of covers, but the rewards are better. My Hybrid Approach #1 does get you a little more rewards, but the character only reaches 534. You can certainly justify that 16 x 5-Star levels is worth more than those little extra rewards. Since this information is buried in this thread, I’ll start a new post to present my findings as simply as possible.

bbigler

@Bad said:
You are forgetting iso cost. And a new player never will be able to afford a million and half iso to ascend someone to lv 550.

You don't need a million and a half ISO to ascend to 550. More like a half million and I can make that in a week.

meadowsweet

@bbigler said:
Well, “new” and “soon” are relative terms. I think people underestimate what a new player can do if they’re dedicated. I’ve tried to demonstrate this by posting my progress restarting the game. I consider “new” and “soon” to be anything under a year. So, can a new player get a 550 Spidey within a year? I think so….

A while back, I diligently kept track of every token & vault pull for a 31 day month and came up with the following pull rates. Note that this is only token or vault pulls, so no covers or shards received directly from progression, placement, champ rewards, quests, SHIELD re-supply, etc.:

Tier	Pulls per Week	Characters	Covers per Character	Time to 550 All (in Months)
1★	46.0	7	1508	52
2★	119.2	13	1404	35
3★	44.8	59	952	289
4★	22.8	139	526	738
5★	3.8	87	113	595

And these are the rewards I was getting as an experienced player, playing every event, with every required character. I'm very casual with my PVP play, not trying very hard and basically just skipping the current meta opponents.