New Feature - Champions 2.0 (Live with R287)

ArchusMonk

@KGB said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@Bowgentle said:
But that's not tax - you got the rewards for the levels on the 3*.

Yes. The question is whether 3* rewards on 2 toons is worth the extra 200 covers. This is a personal decision I’d say. You’re balancing 2x 3* level champ rewards vs having your Ascended character sooner and needing 200 fewer covers. I’m someone that tries to maximize all my rewards, but I feel like I’ll probably go Min/max at the 2* and 3* levels. I’ll definitely go max champ at the 4* level since there is no tax and the champ rewards are much better.

You only pay the tax on the 2nd and beyond ascension.

In other words, if you max champ (266) 4 3* to make a pair of 4* you are fine (no tax). You'd only pay a tax if you tried to max champ both those 2 4* to make a 5. That's the point where you want to just max champ 1 of those 4* and then ascend directly to 5* land to avoid the tax.

The same goes for 2s. You are find to max champ those to ascend to 3 land. But that that point you only want to level one of them to 266 and leave the other at 166 to ascend to 4* land to avoid the tax.

KGB

This is not correct. Please see the math I included in one of my recent posts. Also, there is. I tax at the 4* level so from a rewards standpoint, you’re best off max champing both to 370.

bbigler

Since there’s a tax ascending more than 1 tier, the question remains, which method gives you better champ rewards for an equivalent number of covers? I’m doing an analysis on that

Punter1

For 1* - you can do max level 6x 2*s and be no worse on the "cover tax"

16x 1* = 208 normal and unavoidable - convert to 8 level 94 2*
create 6x max 2* = 300 covers (50 each at 1:1) - this is 100 more than the min needed 4x max

Use 4 max 2* to make 2x 191 3*
Use 2 max 2* + 2 level 94s to make 2x 166 3*

Level up the 2x 191 to 266 = 150 covers x2 (2:1 ratio, 75 levels) = 300 - this is 100 less than the min needed 2x max from 166

Ascend 2x 266 + 2x 166 to 2x 4*, spend 300 covers to get 1 4* to 370 and ascend, then 400 more to max. = 1508 spent

Min covers needed to ascend 1* to 550 with no excess cover tax and assuming no "over binding" = 1508 fairly agreed!

This is due to the extra 100 spending at 2* being credited as the same level equivalency and not losing out like you do when over-spending 1* cover to create 3 & 4 levels which are not a 1:1

ThaRoadWarrior

@bbigler said:
Since there’s a tax ascending more than 1 tier, the question remains, which method gives you better champ rewards for an equivalent number of covers? I’m doing an analysis on that

I would be interested to see that analysis presented in such a way that it accounts for the reward increase ramp as you get further along a champ tree in addition to the overall average. Like "from 451-466 (60 covers), here is the difference from 271-331" and so on. I also would love those of us who choose to ascend characters to showcase the difference between top level original tier and bottom level ascendant tier. Just so people know. Ideally both of these data points will allow people to decide if the character is actually useful right away at baby champ or if they are just a reward factory.

Daredevil217

I don’t understand where the tax comes from or what it means despite multiple people breaking it down. I just want to figure out the most optimal way to turn what I have into 5 stars one day lol.

For most 3-Stars I have 3 maxed versions (which I guess is suboptimal but I’ve already done it?) plus a 4th at different levels being farmed.

So I’m thinking best approach, and someone please tell me if I’m wrong, is to immediately bind two of my maxed 3* to create a level 303 4*. Then apply the next 201 covers to this character so they are a level 370 max-champ 4*. THEN, bind my third max champ 3* with the feeder version of the character and they will be a somewhere between a level 270-370 4*. Regardless of their level, I should immediately bind them to them to the first 370 to make a 5*? Is this correct? Or should I get that second character to level 370 as well, then bind/ascend?

Kolence

This is still confusing to so many people.

I hope this sheet is easy enough to read. Shows the covers it takes to reach max champs ascended chars for each starting tier. And with two kinds of merging. Also the Iso-8 returns at each max champ point. It doesn't take any other champ rewards into account, as this seems complicated enough as is...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rJPHB6eDkJxn2cUZhAXVGOLZP-BBgwfbAaHpz-h7IOs/edit?usp=sharing

ArchusMonk

@Daredevil217 said:
I don’t understand where the tax comes from or what it means despite multiple people breaking it down. I just want to figure out the most optimal way to turn what I have into 5 stars one day lol.

For most 3-Stars I have 3 maxed versions (which I guess is suboptimal but I’ve already done it?) plus a 4th at different levels being farmed.

So I’m thinking best approach, and someone please tell me if I’m wrong, is to immediately bind two of my maxed 3* to create a level 303 4*. Then apply the next 201 covers to this character so they are a level 370 max-champ 4*. THEN, bind my third max champ 3* with the feeder version of the character and they will be a somewhere between a level 270-370 4*. Regardless of their level, I should immediately bind them to them to the first 370 to make a 5*? Is this correct? Or should I get that second character to level 370 as well, then bind/ascend?

I was thinking about your situation. Personally, I would champ 2 of your max champs and then spend the next 200 covers getting it to 370. Then combine your remaining champ with your other (presumably champ but not max) copy of that character just as you said. Then use future covers to send that to 370 to max the juicy 4* rewards. Then ascend those 2 to make a 475 5. You’ve already “paid the tax”, so those are sunk costs for you at this point.

EDIT: I reread what you typed and that was already your plan. Lol

KGB

@Daredevil217 said:
I don’t understand where the tax comes from or what it means despite multiple people breaking it down. I just want to figure out the most optimal way to turn what I have into 5 stars one day lol.

For most 3-Stars I have 3 maxed versions (which I guess is suboptimal but I’ve already done it?) plus a 4th at different levels being farmed.

So I’m thinking best approach, and someone please tell me if I’m wrong, is to immediately bind two of my maxed 3* to create a level 303 4*. Then apply the next 201 covers to this character so they are a level 370 max-champ 4*. THEN, bind my third max champ 3* with the feeder version of the character and they will be a somewhere between a level 270-370 4*. Regardless of their level, I should immediately bind them to them to the first 370 to make a 5*? Is this correct? Or should I get that second character to level 370 as well, then bind/ascend?

Take a look at Kolence's spreadsheet. He's broken it down very nicely.

Take a look at the 3* Ascension chart. Having dual max champed (266) 3*s is fine. It takes 426 covers to get a 1 max champed 4 regardless of whether you start with a pair of 266's or you use 1 266 and 1 166.

It's only once you start trying to move that ascended 3* through the 4* levels that it matters. At that point if you want to get that 3* to 5* you need to get one to 370 and one to 270 to avoid the tax.

KGB

bbigler

Champ Reward Analysis #1
Use 957 x 3-Star covers:

Ascend using 266+167, then 370+271 to 550:
447,500 ISO
25,300 HP
949 CP
48 LT
CP + LT = 86 Pulls

Ascend using 266+266, then 370+370 to 501:
544,000 ISO
13,600 HP
973 CP
53 LT
CP + LT = 92 Pulls

NOTE: I’m using 957 covers instead of 952 because you can get 3 LTs for 5 covers on levels 167, 167 and 271. Remember this analysis assumes you’re starting from scratch.

DAZ0273

Crikey this thread - Mathematics Puzzle Quest is our new game it seems!

ThisisClemFandango

Didn't understand it to begin with and probably even less so after 22 pages.
With the drop rate of mighty tokens this will take an extremely long time to do, well the 4's anyway.

trenchdigger

@Daredevil217
Completely understand why this is confusing people. It is difficult to explain, and also theoretical, as we don't actually know how credits will work.
Also people are doing correct maths but misunderstanding what that maths means.

In summary,
To take a 1* all the way up to 550 takes 1,508 1* covers if at each ascension you always use a max champed and a newly champed to ascend.

If you always use 2 maxed champs each time you ascend then it might still take 1,508 covers or it might take 1,908 covers. This is the "tax".

So what causes the extra 400 covers:
Going from 1* to 1ascend2 is tax free
Going from 1ascend2 to 1ascend3 is tax free
Going from 1ascend3 to 1ascend4 might incur 200 "tax" (see note 1 below)
Going from 1ascend4 to 1ascend5 might incur 200 "tax" (see note 2 below)

How does the tax arise:

Note 1: taking a 1* through 100 3* levels will cost 200 covers. If you only get credit at the rate of 1 cover per levels rather than 2 covers per level then the "tax" is 100 covers for each of the 2 out of 4 champs that you choose to max champ rather than just newly champ. Total tax = 200 covers

Note 2: taking a 1* through 100 4* levels will cost 300 covers. If you only get credit at the rate of 1 cover per levels rather than 3 covers per level then the "tax" is 200 covers for the 1 champ that you choose to max champ rather than just newly champ. Total tax = 200 covers

This may all be moot, as you may actually get credit for all of the covers used to max champ, even when the rate of covers to levels is increased.

I hope this makes sense. I'm sure I would make a terrible teacher!

DAZ0273

@ThisisClemFandango said:
Didn't understand it to begin with and probably even less so after 22 pages.
With the drop rate of mighty tokens this will take an extremely long to do, well the 4's anyway.

To be fair this has always been an extra nerdy game where people have spreadsheets and timers and god knows what else. All the Maths geeks are practically having their best week here! I always said that if any MPQ player ever went on a rampage in real life you could only defeat them with a calculator and excel.

I will just hope to get the 1* Spidey cover I need (not purple!) and then maybe in 2 years come back and read this again and hope it makes sense for the rest of it.

bbigler

EDIT: Champ Reward Analysis #2
Use 1,411 x 2-Star covers:

Ascend using 144+94, then 266+167, then 370+271 to 550:
514,500 ISO
26,060 HP
969 CP
48 LT
CP + LT = 87 Pulls

Ascend using 144+144, then 266+266, then 370+338: (not enough covers to max)
529,000 ISO
9,470 HP
558 CP
37 LT
CP + LT = 59 Pulls

NOTE: I’m using 1,411 covers instead of 1,404 because you can get 3 LTs for 7 covers on levels 167, 167 and 271. Remember this analysis assumes you’re starting from scratch.

rainkingucd

@Daredevil217 said:
I don’t understand where the tax comes from or what it means despite multiple people breaking it down. I just want to figure out the most optimal way to turn what I have into 5 stars one day lol.

For most 3-Stars I have 3 maxed versions (which I guess is suboptimal but I’ve already done it?) plus a 4th at different levels being farmed.

So I’m thinking best approach, and someone please tell me if I’m wrong, is to immediately bind two of my maxed 3* to create a level 303 4*. Then apply the next 201 covers to this character so they are a level 370 max-champ 4*. THEN, bind my third max champ 3* with the feeder version of the character and they will be a somewhere between a level 270-370 4*. Regardless of their level, I should immediately bind them to them to the first 370 to make a 5*? Is this correct? Or should I get that second character to level 370 as well, then bind/ascend?

Exactly where I am right now:

w_ifbbpro

When will it be here in App Store?

bbigler

EDIT: Here's my takeaway from all this and maybe my last comment on this matter.

• The difference in champ rewards between ascending 3-stars with or without a max champ is only 7% in terms of CP & LT. So, I think it's more important to level up faster than get the extra 7% in rewards.
• It's a no-brainer to ascend your 1-stars and 2-stars ASAP using the minimum level because you don't want to pay the reduced cover/level ratio any more times than needed to get to the next level. That's the tax.
• Since they will be releasing ascended characters in batches, I'll roster dupes and save covers instead of hoarding tokens. That way, the ones that can be ascended now will be. Progress now is better than progress later.

Bad

Well, luckily I never sold any max 4* . However being an almost 5 year player those max characters are counted with one hand.
I sold a lot of 3s, of course.
That was the way the farm worked if you didn't want to discharge 2000 hp in a new slot (remember the previous BCS times?)
However I did one thing good and it's to being too lazy to open tokens. I have 2000 standar, 1800 heroic, 2000 elite and 3000 mighty (thanks to my eternal t50 in pve).
And now I'll do nasty things with them, like to finish maxing magik 3 and ascend her to 5* because is a character I like a lot and will help my 5*s.
And well, after x20 odds in classic and now ascend system, I think my days on pulling LL are pretty finished.

meadowsweet

@w_ifbbpro said:
When will it be here in App Store?

Just to be clear, only 3 of 8 of the 1★ characters and 5 of 14 of the 2★ characters will be eligible to Bind & Ascend - they're doing them in batches. So if you're sitting on 15,383 Standard Tokens, you may want to wait until they are 100% unlocked, and not risk "wasting" most of your pulls on the vine? (No idea how long that may be.)

Scofie

@w_ifbbpro said:
When will it be here in App Store?

Ha! Hope you've set aside 20 hours a day for a month to open those, 50 at a time....