New Feature - Champions 2.0 (Live with R287)

ThaRoadWarrior

Just curious if all the mathletes doing the resource costs were factoring in that you don’t have to champ your dupe, just have them leveled up to highest level prior to champing to bind them? So you only have to pay the champ tax if you are going to merge a pair of max champs together.

ArchusMonk

@rainkingucd said:

@Daredevil217 said:

@DAZ0273 said:
It would be interesting to know how many of the player base are actually capable of ascending a 4* today on launch, not getting into the best scenario of double dipping etc - just if you are actually capable of doing it straight away. So who has a max champ + champed dupe of some level? Doesn't matter if you are not planning on doing it - just maybe say if you have the capability in this thread from from launch.

Definitely not me!

I am gonna dabble with 1* Spidey though - I know my limits!

I have no 370s. The dupes I do have:

Cyclops: 289
Deadpool: 281
Ghost Rider: 298
Gorr: 74
Gwenpoole (1 max, no dupe rostered yet),
Invisible Woman: 290
Iron Man: 316
Medusa: 325
Moon Knight: 293
Mr. Fantastic: 286
Nico Minoru: 309
Riri Williams: 286
Rogue: 285
The Thing: 172
Thor: 294
Valkyrie: 343
War Machine 284

Every old 3* will be ascended to 4* day one because I’ve kept 3 max champs of each for health packs. This should free up a bunch of slots.

Every 2* will also be ascended to 3* day 1 because I’ve kept two max champs of them as well.

1* I only have one max level of each. I do have 211 standards. Could see what that nets me.

It makes sense to wait until I’ve ascended the 2/3. That way I don’t have to buy more slots for the dupe 1s.

My 4* are in similar shape as yours I think. I have a fair number of dupes, but no 370 dupes. Closest are Medusa and Captain Marvel in the 330s. I think I'll go with them first, as there is little chance on updates to feeders for them, and they can be my tests in the 4* space. Both are great characters and would work well at the higher level so little risk.

For the rest, I currently have a bunch of 1* on the vine, as well as ~6 3* IM covers (and 2 maxed champed IM40). I'll clear my vine by ascending the 1* and 3* IM straight away, then start to work on my 2* next.

Since you have 6 3* IM covers already, you might want to give some thought to making a max level 3* IM to ascend with one of your max champs. This is because the “tax” associated with ascending 2 max champs. If you do 2x max champ + 2x max level vs 4x max champ, you’ll 300 covers over the long haul. On the other hand you’ve already paid the tax on your current second max champ, so you could just bite the bullet and ascend the 2 max champs, apply the 6 covers, and have a level 305 3IM4.

rainkingucd

@ArchusMonk said:

@rainkingucd said:

@Daredevil217 said:

@DAZ0273 said:
It would be interesting to know how many of the player base are actually capable of ascending a 4* today on launch, not getting into the best scenario of double dipping etc - just if you are actually capable of doing it straight away. So who has a max champ + champed dupe of some level? Doesn't matter if you are not planning on doing it - just maybe say if you have the capability in this thread from from launch.

Definitely not me!

I am gonna dabble with 1* Spidey though - I know my limits!

I have no 370s. The dupes I do have:

Cyclops: 289
Deadpool: 281
Ghost Rider: 298
Gorr: 74
Gwenpoole (1 max, no dupe rostered yet),
Invisible Woman: 290
Iron Man: 316
Medusa: 325
Moon Knight: 293
Mr. Fantastic: 286
Nico Minoru: 309
Riri Williams: 286
Rogue: 285
The Thing: 172
Thor: 294
Valkyrie: 343
War Machine 284

Every old 3* will be ascended to 4* day one because I’ve kept 3 max champs of each for health packs. This should free up a bunch of slots.

Every 2* will also be ascended to 3* day 1 because I’ve kept two max champs of them as well.

1* I only have one max level of each. I do have 211 standards. Could see what that nets me.

It makes sense to wait until I’ve ascended the 2/3. That way I don’t have to buy more slots for the dupe 1s.

My 4* are in similar shape as yours I think. I have a fair number of dupes, but no 370 dupes. Closest are Medusa and Captain Marvel in the 330s. I think I'll go with them first, as there is little chance on updates to feeders for them, and they can be my tests in the 4* space. Both are great characters and would work well at the higher level so little risk.

For the rest, I currently have a bunch of 1* on the vine, as well as ~6 3* IM covers (and 2 maxed champed IM40). I'll clear my vine by ascending the 1* and 3* IM straight away, then start to work on my 2* next.

Since you have 6 3* IM covers already, you might want to give some thought to making a max level 3* IM to ascend with one of your max champs. This is because the “tax” associated with ascending 2 max champs. If you do 2x max champ + 2x max level vs 4x max champ, you’ll 300 covers over the long haul. On the other hand you’ve already paid the tax on your current second max champ, so you could just bite the bullet and ascend the 2 max champs, apply the 6 covers, and have a level 305 3IM4.

This is very helpful and very insightful, thank you. I was of the mindset that 2x max champs was better since you got all the champ rewards along the way, but I hadn't really looked into the "tax" as you had outlined before. Now I have to think which is not what I planned on doing!

skittledaddy

@MegaBee said:
I wonder if ascending a character will count as promotion to champion for milestone quests.

Or for XP increase...

liminal_lad

@LavaManLee said:

@ThaRoadWarrior said:

@LavaManLee said:
Apologies but even after 19 pages, I still have some basic questions. Here is something I still don't get and hoping it is clear:

• I have two 4* Polaris at 370
• If I "ascend" them into a 5Polaris4, can I use that character in the required 4* for the current PVE? Or do I need to have a "pure" 4*Polaris to use?

Thanks in adanvce!

They've said there are currently no nodes in the game programmed to require Polaris (Lorna Dane) to be 4* Polaris (lorna dane), but that the technology to require that in future could be rolled out. so you will be able to use the character with that name anywhere they are required, even required character PVP.

Thanks. Polaris was just my example.

I guess the overall question is whether those required nodes in PVE require a "pure" 4* (or 3*) or if an Ascended one works in those nodes?

They will not work in Deadpool nodes as their original star level.

trenchdigger

This isn't correct. The "tax" associated with ascending 2 max champs only applies when it cost more than 1 cover per level to get the character up to a max champ.

For a 3 star, it only costs you 1 cover per level to go from 166 to 266. Therefore if you ascend 2 max champed 3 star at 266 you get back the full 100 covers worth of credit applied to your 3ascended4.

However, for a 2*, it costs 2 covers per level to get that already ascended 2* from 166 to 266. We don't actually know yet what credit you get back when you ascend that 2* up again, but the suggestion is that you only get 100 levels of credit, not 200 covers of credit. This is "tax" that is being described, and it is only a theoretical tax at the moment until we have confirmation of how these subsequent ascension credits are applied.

But just to reiterate, in your case @rankingucd, the first ascension of 2 3* to 4*, there is no "tax" to consider, and therefore using 2 max champed 3* at 266 means no loss of rewards and no penalty.

ArchusMonk

@liminal_lad said:

@LavaManLee said:

@ThaRoadWarrior said:

@LavaManLee said:
Apologies but even after 19 pages, I still have some basic questions. Here is something I still don't get and hoping it is clear:

• I have two 4* Polaris at 370
• If I "ascend" them into a 5Polaris4, can I use that character in the required 4* for the current PVE? Or do I need to have a "pure" 4*Polaris to use?

Thanks in adanvce!

They've said there are currently no nodes in the game programmed to require Polaris (Lorna Dane) to be 4* Polaris (lorna dane), but that the technology to require that in future could be rolled out. so you will be able to use the character with that name anywhere they are required, even required character PVP.

Thanks. Polaris was just my example.

I guess the overall question is whether those required nodes in PVE require a "pure" 4* (or 3*) or if an Ascended one works in those nodes?

They will not work in Deadpool nodes as their original star level.

We’ll see how it actually plays in game, but the INTENT of the devs is that a PVE node is either level specific or character specific. That means if you ascend 2* Storm to 2Storm3, you can no longer use her in the DDQ node that requires 2* characters. However, you would be able to use her in the 4-3-2 node if she is the required 2 because that node doesn’t specify a level just a specific Storm. Again, implemented code does not always follow what the devs intend, but that was IceX’s answer when I asked pretty much this specific question.

trenchdigger

To try to be as clear as possible, the only ascensions where this "tax" may apply are:
1* to 4* and 5* level
2* to 4* and 5* level
3* to 5* level

Any other ascensions will be fine as no multiple covers will have been consumed to level up max champs at lower levels.

Bowgentle

@trenchdigger said:
To try to be as clear as possible, the only ascensions where this "tax" may apply are:
1* to 4* and 5* level
2* to 4* and 5* level
3* to 5* level

Any other ascensions will be fine as no multiple covers will have been consumed to level up max champs at lower levels.

Thanks, I was wondering where that "tax" came from all of a sudden.

ArchusMonk

@trenchdigger said:
This isn't correct. The "tax" associated with ascending 2 max champs only applies when it cost more than 1 cover per level to get the character up to a max champ.

For a 3 star, it only costs you 1 cover per level to go from 166 to 266. Therefore if you ascend 2 max champed 3 star at 266 you get back the full 100 covers worth of credit applied to your 3ascended4.

However, for a 2*, it costs 2 covers per level to get that already ascended 2* from 166 to 266. We don't actually know yet what credit you get back when you ascend that 2* up again, but the suggestion is that you only get 100 levels of credit, not 200 covers of credit. This is "tax" that is being described, and it is only a theoretical tax at the moment until we have confirmation of how these subsequent ascension credits are applied.

But just to reiterate, in your case @rankingucd, the first ascension of 2 3* to 4*, there is no "tax" to consider, and therefore using 2 max champed 3* at 266 means no loss of rewards and no penalty.

I thought the same as you until I did the math a few posts ago. The tax is 300 covers.

For 3 star ascension, 2 3 star 266 and 2 3 star 166 costs (113x2 + 13x2) = 252 covers.

Ascending those creates 2 4 star 270. Levelling 1 of those to 370 costs 100 x 3 covers per level = 300 covers.

Ascending 1 max champ 4 star 370 and 1 max level 4 star 270 creates 1 5 star 450. Levelling that to 550 costs 100 x 4 covers per level = 400 covers.

Total 952 covers.

Max champ method is 4 max = 452 covers.

Ascending x2 nets you 2x 4 star 303 1/3. 66 2/3 more levels is required at a rate of 3 covers per level. That equals 200 covers per toon or 400 covers.

Ascending those 2 produces a level 475 5 star. 300 covers are required to max level that (75 levels x 4).

The max champ method requires 1152 covers. That's a 200 cover tax.

@rainkingucd there is the math.

DAZ0273

.......

Bowgentle

But that's not tax - you got the rewards for the levels on the 3*.

turbomoose

I hope bagman is included eventually, think it would be amusing to turn him into a 3* as I have him max champed twice

jsmjsmjsm00

To summarize the main discussions of the past 20 pages:

1) There is confusion/debate regarding whether higher star ascensions account for the number of covers or the number of levels in the consumed character. This could make a big difference in the number of covers needed to max ascend of you are max champing characters first.

2) Ascended characters won't give retro rewards if they become feeders at a lower star level.

3) Character requirements in PvE and PvP are only by EITHER the character or the star. There are no existing restrictions that impose both character and star requirement.

entrailbucket

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
I've been skipping all the math stuff because I assume it's not optimal to Ascend every single character possible right away, and I am absolutely, unquestionably, 100% going to spend all day doing that immediately whenever this drops.

Really looking forward to you doing a writeup on your results in a separate post so the rest of us can see how it's playing out.

KGB

Honestly I'm just way, way too dumb to do that in a way that could benefit anybody else.

What I will be able to do, probably relatively quickly, is to give some impressions of who does what at the next tier, and how well they do it relative to others.

meadowsweet

@Korky1 said:
Surely the best use is to merge max champs, that way you have the rewards to both levels

Remember that waiting for two Max Champs means tying up two roster slots for significantly longer.

For example, let's just take the 4★ Tier. There are currently 143 characters, so you need 143 roster slots just to have everyone. If you're only trying to get to Max Level duplicates (13 covers), then at any given time you might be waiting on 10% of your dupes to be ready, so you might need another 14-15 roster slots.

If you're waiting on Max Champs, you need to collect an additional 113 covers for every 4★ character on your roster. That could take months or years. You'll need to have a second roster slot for almost every one of the 143 characters, which in turn is going to cost you hundreds of thousands of Hero Points. And that's just the 4★ tier - you'll need additional roster slots for the 81 characters in the 1★, 2★, and 3★ tiers as well. And 3 new characters are being added every four weeks...

So if roster slots & HP are no object and you're overflowing with both, max champs may be the way to go. But I'm probably going to need to use Max Level (Min Champs) just to strategize with the roster slots I've got.

turbomoose

I have captain marvel, Medusa, iron fist, mordo, nick fury, Peggy carter , Polaris rocket and groot, Valkyrie , wolverine and yondu all max champed and a champed dupe so I might be able to do a few of them

Bowgentle

I'll definitely wait for dual 370s, those 4* champ rewards are so backloaded, it hurts giving up the ones from 340+ onwards.

GrimSkald

@jsmjsmjsm00 said:
To summarize the main discussions of the past 20 pages:

1) There is confusion/debate regarding whether higher star ascensions account for the number of covers or the number of levels in the consumed character. This could make a big difference in the number of covers needed to max ascend of you are max champing characters first.

2) Ascended characters won't give retro rewards if they become feeders at a lower star level.

3) Character requirements in PvE and PvP are only by EITHER the character or the star. There are no existing restrictions that impose both character and star requirement.

I strongly suspect the answer to 1 is going to be "levels," which means yes, there would be a loss for max-champing a second character if it's of a higher tier (i.e. (2)Storm 3* - you will have paid double cost for leveling her to 166, and will be getting 1/3 of the levels back, so you'll be paying 100 covers to get 33 levels if you max champ the second (2) Storm.) I hadn't thought of that, but it does make sense.

2 - at this time that is the case, they may revisit this if there's a hubub, which I suspect there will be the first time it happens.

3 - The way I read it the star level is only specified in DDQ and in certain PVPs (Combined Arms is the only one I can think of.) So yeah, it won't be a huge disadvantage to ascend particular characters and not keep a base level copy so long as you have toons of that star level.

ArchusMonk

@Bowgentle said:
But that's not tax - you got the rewards for the levels on the 3*.

Yes. The question is whether 3* rewards on 2 toons is worth the extra 200 covers. This is a personal decision I’d say. You’re balancing 2x 3* level champ rewards vs having your Ascended character sooner and needing 200 fewer covers. I’m someone that tries to maximize all my rewards, but I feel like I’ll probably go Min/max at the 2* and 3* levels. I’ll definitely go max champ at the 4* level since there is no tax and the champ rewards are much better.