New Feature - Champions 2.0 (Live with R287)

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  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 729 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2023

    @Aweberman said:

    True or false: It is better to Ascend a character with a max-champed version than with a newly-champed version.

    True - when ascending you get credit for the covers used on the 2nd copy used in ascension. So for ascension levels you are not penalized for using a copy that is not a just champed copy.

    Example stuff:
    1. Ascend 370 + 270 4* = 450 5* - you then start getting rewards at 4:1 for the 5* only copy, so 100 more 4* covers = 475 5* and 25 5* champ rewards

    1. Use those 100 covers to raise 270 to 370 = full 4* champ rewards
      Ascend 370 + 370 = 475 5* - you instantly get credit for the 25 5* champ levels. So for patience (and a alot of it!) in 4* land you get a full 4* champ reward and lose nothing other than having a 5* sooner

    This is then true at lower levels too, so waiting at 2* and 3* for a max dupe to use just adds more rewards.

  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,503 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Aweberman said:
    Sorry in advance, because I'm sure this has been covered, but when I last looked at this thread there were only five pages...

    True or false: It is better to Ascend a character with a max-champed version than with a newly-champed version.

    To use a specific example: If I'm ascending Psylocke, I should use 2 level 266 copies rather than 1 level 266 and 1 level 166. The reason for this is that each 3-star cover (or equivalent number of shards) grants 3-star champion rewards, but you need 4 such covers/sets of shards to get the 4-star champion rewards ... and you will get those anyway once you ascend the character.

    Exception: It may be worth it to forego the lower-tier champion rewards in the above scenario if you would prefer to have the higher-level character sooner.

    Aside from double dipping rewards questions. There no drawback to merging to max champed chars.

    Yes, there will be specific characters where its obvious that you need to speed him along to the next tier. But in general, there no compelling reason to rush a char.

    FWIW
    I plan to merge my max champed dupes as appropriate, and I'll prioritize specific power types like (battery, web generators, board control specialists etc) as approriate.

    But overall, I'll just apply covers at their base rarity and just ascend fully maxed champs. Putting aside the idea of a 550 juggs, any scenario that farms 1* covers vs just selling will be the better way to proceed.

    Aside from a few key chars like (IM40, 3Thanos, 4 Polaris, 4* AC) who can make an immediate impact for all tiers of players, the rest of the chars are just resource generators.

  • meadowsweet
    meadowsweet Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker

    @ArchusMonk said:
    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*

    2* should be 1804 covers
    8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*

    3* should be 1152 covers
    4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*

    You're leveling up every character to Max Champ every time, but you don't have to do that. Each binding only needs to be between 1 Max Champ (144, 266, 370) and 1 Max Level (94, 166, 270) character.

    Are you only doing that because you're worried about missing out on the 50 - 100 levels of feeder rewards? My method was just prioritizing getting to level 550 as quickly as possible, using the minimum number of covers necessary.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler
    edited September 2023

    @meadowsweet said:

    @ArchusMonk said:
    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*

    2* should be 1804 covers
    8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*

    3* should be 1152 covers
    4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*

    You're leveling up every character to Max Champ every time, but you don't have to do that. Each binding only needs to be between 1 Max Champ (144, 266, 370) and 1 Max Level (94, 166, 270) character.

    Are you only doing that because you're worried about missing out on the 50 - 100 levels of feeder rewards? My method was just prioritizing getting to level 550 as quickly as possible, using the minimum number of covers necessary.

    The number of covers required do not change whether you ascend max champs or ascend a max champ and a max level.

    Part of your error was not enough bindings. For the stage 1, you have 16 max level 1*, so you have 8 bindings, not 4. That’s 200 covers right there. Then the math follows for the next stage where you missed bindings.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler

    @Kolence said:

    @ArchusMonk said:

    @meadowsweet said:
    So I've probably screwed up my maths somewhere, but I was trying to work out how many total covers (or shard equivalents) it would take in order to level up a character all the way to 550:

    5★: 113 covers
    (straightforward: 13 covers to champ, 100 covers to max champ)

    4★: 526 covers
    (13+113=126 4★ Binding, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    3★: 952 covers
    (2x13+2x113=252 3★ Bindings, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    2★: 1,404 covers
    (4x13+4x63=304 2★ Bindings, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (3 Powers): 1,508 covers
    (16x13=208 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (2 Powers): 1,460 covers
    (16x10=160 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    [Legend: "4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions" means you have to upgrade (4) characters at an 'exchange rate' of (1) cover per level through (50) total levels, at a cost of (200) covers.]

    It is odd that the 'exchange rate' at the 5★ tier is 4 covers per 1 level, regardless of whether you're talking about a 4★ character or a 2★ character. Given how much more common 2★ covers are than 4★ covers (and the fact that they're divided amongst many fewer 2★ characters), a 2★ character will fly from level 450 to level 550 in a tiny fraction of the time that it will take the 4★ character.

    Anyway, feel free to let me know what I got wrong!

    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*. 8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1908 covers.

    2* should be 1804 covers
    8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1804 covers.

    3* should be 1152 covers
    4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1152 covers.

    I think you're both right, if everything works like we think atm :)
    It's just the older quote is leveling 1 copy to max champ and the other to base champ level, in order to ascend to the next tier. At each tier...
    The newer quote looks like leveling 2 copies to max champ and then merging them. Which gives even better overall returns per 1* cover... :)
    It's clear that farming will be even better, with 1*s now. But what's funny to me, is it's best returns to sell at max champ 4-stars, for "flipping" a character in the farm. At least in terms of Iso-8. Just shows how expensive 4-stars have remained all these years (3-stars cost to champ got reduced long ago...)
    Also, up to max champ 3-star, it's the same total number of covers (302), whether you max champ both 2-stars or just one.
    At max champ 4-star, it would take extra 200 covers, but you again double dip on 3-star champ rewards. :)

    The number of covers required does not change whether you ascend max champs or ascend a max champ and a max level.

    Example: 2 max champ 2 star requires 126 covers and that produces a 3 star level 191. 150 more covers are required to take that to level 266. Total 276 covers.

    1 max champ 2 star and 1 max level 2 star requires 76 covers and that produces a 3 star level 166. 200 more covers are required to take that to level 266. Total 276 covers.

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2023

    @ArchusMonk said:

    @Kolence said:

    @ArchusMonk said:

    @meadowsweet said:
    So I've probably screwed up my maths somewhere, but I was trying to work out how many total covers (or shard equivalents) it would take in order to level up a character all the way to 550:

    5★: 113 covers
    (straightforward: 13 covers to champ, 100 covers to max champ)

    4★: 526 covers
    (13+113=126 4★ Binding, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    3★: 952 covers
    (2x13+2x113=252 3★ Bindings, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    2★: 1,404 covers
    (4x13+4x63=304 2★ Bindings, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (3 Powers): 1,508 covers
    (16x13=208 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (2 Powers): 1,460 covers
    (16x10=160 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    [Legend: "4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions" means you have to upgrade (4) characters at an 'exchange rate' of (1) cover per level through (50) total levels, at a cost of (200) covers.]

    It is odd that the 'exchange rate' at the 5★ tier is 4 covers per 1 level, regardless of whether you're talking about a 4★ character or a 2★ character. Given how much more common 2★ covers are than 4★ covers (and the fact that they're divided amongst many fewer 2★ characters), a 2★ character will fly from level 450 to level 550 in a tiny fraction of the time that it will take the 4★ character.

    Anyway, feel free to let me know what I got wrong!

    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*. 8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1908 covers.

    2* should be 1804 covers
    8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1804 covers.

    3* should be 1152 covers
    4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1152 covers.

    I think you're both right, if everything works like we think atm :)
    It's just the older quote is leveling 1 copy to max champ and the other to base champ level, in order to ascend to the next tier. At each tier...
    The newer quote looks like leveling 2 copies to max champ and then merging them. Which gives even better overall returns per 1* cover... :)
    It's clear that farming will be even better, with 1*s now. But what's funny to me, is it's best returns to sell at max champ 4-stars, for "flipping" a character in the farm. At least in terms of Iso-8. Just shows how expensive 4-stars have remained all these years (3-stars cost to champ got reduced long ago...)
    Also, up to max champ 3-star, it's the same total number of covers (302), whether you max champ both 2-stars or just one.
    At max champ 4-star, it would take extra 200 covers, but you again double dip on 3-star champ rewards. :)

    The number of covers required does not change whether you ascend max champs or ascend a max champ and a max level.

    Example: 2 max champ 2 star requires 126 covers and that produces a 3 star level 191. 150 more covers are required to take that to level 266. Total 276 covers.

    1 max champ 2 star and 1 max level

    You're giving the example with number of covers of 2-stars.
    The first quoted post was counting the number of required 1-star covers to ascend. The fastest way.
    I gave the numbers in 1-star covers too, but it doesn't change the part where I said it's the same number of covers to ascend to max champ 3-star. Whether you merge two max champed 2-stars or a max champ and a base champ. The former gives more rewards, and the latter gives you an ascended 3-star (and a freed roster slot) earlier.
    You should make your example for 4-stars and you'll see that the number of covers in that case does increase. Should be 100 more with 2-stars, 752 vs. 652. But you do get the double rewards yet again, at 3-star levels.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler
    edited September 2023

    @Kolence said:

    @ArchusMonk said:

    @Kolence said:

    @ArchusMonk said:

    @meadowsweet said:
    So I've probably screwed up my maths somewhere, but I was trying to work out how many total covers (or shard equivalents) it would take in order to level up a character all the way to 550:

    5★: 113 covers
    (straightforward: 13 covers to champ, 100 covers to max champ)

    4★: 526 covers
    (13+113=126 4★ Binding, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    3★: 952 covers
    (2x13+2x113=252 3★ Bindings, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    2★: 1,404 covers
    (4x13+4x63=304 2★ Bindings, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (3 Powers): 1,508 covers
    (16x13=208 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (2 Powers): 1,460 covers
    (16x10=160 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    [Legend: "4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions" means you have to upgrade (4) characters at an 'exchange rate' of (1) cover per level through (50) total levels, at a cost of (200) covers.]

    It is odd that the 'exchange rate' at the 5★ tier is 4 covers per 1 level, regardless of whether you're talking about a 4★ character or a 2★ character. Given how much more common 2★ covers are than 4★ covers (and the fact that they're divided amongst many fewer 2★ characters), a 2★ character will fly from level 450 to level 550 in a tiny fraction of the time that it will take the 4★ character.

    Anyway, feel free to let me know what I got wrong!

    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*. 8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1908 covers.

    2* should be 1804 covers
    8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1804 covers.

    3* should be 1152 covers
    4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1152 covers.

    I think you're both right, if everything works like we think atm :)
    It's just the older quote is leveling 1 copy to max champ and the other to base champ level, in order to ascend to the next tier. At each tier...
    The newer quote looks like leveling 2 copies to max champ and then merging them. Which gives even better overall returns per 1* cover... :)
    It's clear that farming will be even better, with 1*s now. But what's funny to me, is it's best returns to sell at max champ 4-stars, for "flipping" a character in the farm. At least in terms of Iso-8. Just shows how expensive 4-stars have remained all these years (3-stars cost to champ got reduced long ago...)
    Also, up to max champ 3-star, it's the same total number of covers (302), whether you max champ both 2-stars or just one.
    At max champ 4-star, it would take extra 200 covers, but you again double dip on 3-star champ rewards. :)

    The number of covers required does not change whether you ascend max champs or ascend a max champ and a max level.

    Example: 2 max champ 2 star requires 126 covers and that produces a 3 star level 191. 150 more covers are required to take that to level 266. Total 276 covers.

    1 max champ 2 star and 1 max level

    You're giving the example with number of covers of 2-stars.
    The first quoted post was counting the number of required 1-star covers to ascend. The fastest way.
    I gave the numbers in 1-star covers too, but it doesn't change the part where I said it's the same number of covers to ascend to max champ 3-star. Whether you merge two max champed 2-stars or a max champ and a base champ. The former gives more rewards, and the latter gives you an ascended 3-star (and a freed roster slot) earlier.
    You should make your example for 4-stars and you'll see that the number of covers in that case does increase. Should be 100 more with 2-stars, 752 vs. 652. But you do get the double rewards yet again, at 3-star levels.

    This is simply not correct. The OP had a math error in his post. He only did 4 bindings instead of 8 at level 1. THE NUMBER OF COVERS REQUIRED DOES NOT CHANGE REGARDLESS OF HOW YOU DECIDE TO ASCEND. The devs said as much in their post.

    from the dev post

    Wait, so what happens if I have two 266 3-Stars and Bind them to make a 4-Star? I can make a 4-Star with a 166 and a 266, so do I just lose the extra covers from using a 266 instead?
    You’ll automatically get the “extra” covers in credit towards the next rarity. So in this case, you’d get the 4-Star Ascended character and 100 covers worth of credit towards those new levels, just like Saved Covers work when you Champion a character.

    Just for fun, I will make my example 4 star as you suggest.

    2 max champ 4* requires 226 covers. Ascending them produces a 5* level 475 which requires 300 more covers to take to 550. Total covers 526.

    1 max champ 4* and 1 max level 4 star requires 126 covers. Ascending them produces a 5* level 450 which requires 400 more covers to take to 550. Total covers 526.

    The take home from all this is that unless you are in a super rush to have an ascended character, it is always best to ascend 2 max champs to maximize your champ rewards.

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor

    @ArchusMonk
    Guess we'll see very soon.
    IceIX gave the example on discord of two level 266 Iron Man copies merging into a level 303 (and some change in shards I guess?). It shows that the 100 levels you gave to the 2nd 3-star copy is only worth 33 levels for the 4-star. But, whether you used 1-stars or 2-stars to ascend, you still had to spend 200 covers for those 100 levels of a 2nd 3-star. Which now only give 33 levels of a 4-star. Which would cost only 100 covers if they were applied to a level 270 ascended character.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler
    edited September 2023

    @Kolence said:
    @ArchusMonk
    Guess we'll see very soon.
    IceIX gave the example on discord of two level 266 Iron Man copies merging into a level 303 (and some change in shards I guess?). It shows that the 100 levels you gave to the 2nd 3-star copy is only worth 33 levels for the 4-star. But, whether you used 1-stars or 2-stars to ascend, you still had to spend 200 covers for those 100 levels of a 2nd 3-star. Which now only give 33 levels of a 4-star. Which would cost only 100 covers if they were applied to a level 270 ascended character.

    I'll do the final example then since you're a non-believer.

    2 3 star max champs requires 226 covers. Ascending them produces a 4* level 303 and 1 cover which requires 200 more covers (66 2/3 levels x 3 covers/level) to take to level 370. Total 426 covers.

    1 3 star max champ and 1 3 star max level requires 126 covers. Ascending them produces a 4* level 270 which requires 300 more covers to take to level 370. Total 426 covers.

    And note, this is in no way inconsistent with the example Icex gave. He’s basically demonstrating that you don’t lose any cover “credit”.

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor

    Sigh...
    Let me be more precise then.
    At every rarity, ascending to the next higher one is as you say. It takes the same number of covers.
    You keep pick and choosing your examples so it's like that - ascending two 2-stars to a 3-star, or two 3-stars to a 4-star.
    I've spelled out how it should work, based on the table the first post gave, and the example Ice provided on discord. With two copies of 1-star 266 character.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler
    edited September 2023

    @Kolence said:
    Sigh...
    Let me be more precise then.
    At every rarity, ascending to the next higher one is as you say. It takes the same number of covers.
    You keep pick and choosing your examples so it's like that - ascending two 2-stars to a 3-star, or two 3-stars to a 4-star.
    I've spelled out how it should work, based on the table the first post gave, and the example Ice provided on discord. With two copies of 1-star 266 character.

    I’m not sure what you’re saying. Icex and I are saying the exact same thing. You get full credit at the next level for any champ levels you put in at the lower level.

    I’m not “picking levels where it’s like that” because every example is like that. That’s how it works!

    I don’t know why you insist on fighting math. Find me an example where it isn’t like that. I’ll save you time. That example does not exist.

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor

    I've already given the example. You quoted that response, but maybe didn't read it? Or at least not very well.
    I'm done responding about this. As I've said, we'll see very soon.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler
    edited September 2023

    @Kolence said:
    I've already given the example. You quoted that response, but maybe didn't read it? Or at least not very well.
    I'm done responding about this. As I've said, we'll see very soon.

    Are you talking about this?

    It shows that the 100 levels you gave to the 2nd 3-star copy is only worth 33 levels for the 4-star. But, whether you used 1-stars or 2-stars to ascend, you still had to spend 200 covers for those 100 levels of a 2nd 3-star. Which now only give 33 levels of a 4-star. Which would cost only 100 covers if they were applied to a level 270 ascended character.

    I'm not sure what you mean here.

  • trenchdigger
    trenchdigger Posts: 149 Tile Toppler

    When I started reading this discussion, I was firmly in agreement with @ArchusMonk ie. it doesn't matter at any level whether you use 2 max champs or a max champ + newly champed to ascend, the total number of required covers is the same. This is because IceX explained you get credit for those covers.

    However, as I have thought more about this, I believe I understand @Kolance's point and it might well have merit.

    @Kolance, I think this is the point you are making.
    The potential additional cost in levels only applies to additional ascensions after ascended levels cost more than 1 cover.
    Let me give an example.
    Once your 2* has ascended to be a 2ascended3 it now costs 200 covers to get the 2ascended3 to be max champed.
    When you ascend again using max champed 2ascended3s, you get credit for the max champed levels. But how much credit do you get? Is the credit based on additional levels or additional covers needed to build those levels
    ie. It now costs 3 covers to add each level to a 2    ascended4.
    So do you get 100 levels / 3 = 33 levels added to your 2ascended4, or do you get the cost of 200 covers to create those 100 levels / 3 = 66 levels added to your 2ascended4.
    For the number of covers to be the same, the credit would need to be the full 200 covers.

    Be really interested to know if this has already been answered somewhere and I've just missed it amongst all the information swirling around here.

    As entrail has said, it would be really good to have 1 central repository of information for champions2.0 once we understand it fully.

  • meadowsweet
    meadowsweet Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker

    @ArchusMonk said:
    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*.
    8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*.
    4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*.
    2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*.
    1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers.
    Total = 1908 covers.

    This is simply not correct. The OP had a math error in his post. He only did 4 bindings instead of 8 at level 1. THE NUMBER OF COVERS REQUIRED DOES NOT CHANGE REGARDLESS OF HOW YOU DECIDE TO ASCEND. The devs said as much in their post.

    I don’t know why you insist on fighting math. Find me an example where it isn’t like that. I’ll save you time. That example does not exist.

    You can't fight math, and this is EXACTLY what Icex was trying to demonstrate without the math. It's a simple math formula. There is no number N that will fall outside the formula or fail to produce the same results.

    You seem to be saying two contradictory things here:
    1) It shouldn't matter whether you're Binding a Max Champ & a Max Level or two Max Champs, the total number of covers required should be the same.
    2) But the only "error" you can find in my math is that I am Binding a Max Champ & a Max Level, and my math doesn't match your math when you're Binding two Max Champs. You haven't actually found any problems with my math, you just assert that you're right and I'm wrong.

    So... allow me to point out the error you made in your math:

    1★: 16 characters x 13 covers = 208 covers

    [BIND: 8 level 94, 2★ characters]

    2★: 8 characters x 50 levels x 1 cover per level = 400 covers

    [BIND; 4 level 191, 3★ characters: 50 extra covers worth of credit (50 levels x 1 cover per level) towards 200 covers necessary to Max Champ 3★ = 1/4 of 100 levels = 25 levels of credit. 166 + 25 = 191]

    3★: 4 characters x 75 levels x 2 covers per level = 600 covers

    [BIND; 2 level 336+2/3, 4★ characters: 200 extra covers worth of credit (100 levels x 2 covers per level) towards 300 covers necessary to Max Champ 4★ = 2/3 of 100 levels = 66+2/3 levels of credit. 270 + 66+2/3 = 336+2/3]

    4★: 2 characters x 33+1/3 levels x 3 covers per level = 200 covers

    [BIND; 1 level 525, 5★ character: 300 extra covers worth of credit (100 levels x 3 covers per level) towards 400 covers necessary to Max Champ 5★ = 3/4 of 100 levels = 75 levels of credit. 450 + 75 = 525]

    5★: 1 character x 25 levels x 4 covers per level = 100 covers

    208 + 400 + 600 + 200 + 100 = 1,508 covers

    This agrees with my earlier math, and contradicts your answer of 1,908 covers

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler
    edited September 2023

    @meadowsweet said:

    @ArchusMonk said:
    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*.
    8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*.
    4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*.
    2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*.
    1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers.
    Total = 1908 covers.

    This is simply not correct. The OP had a math error in his post. He only did 4 bindings instead of 8 at level 1. THE NUMBER OF COVERS REQUIRED DOES NOT CHANGE REGARDLESS OF HOW YOU DECIDE TO ASCEND. The devs said as much in their post.

    I don’t know why you insist on fighting math. Find me an example where it isn’t like that. I’ll save you time. That example does not exist.

    You can't fight math, and this is EXACTLY what Icex was trying to demonstrate without the math. It's a simple math formula. There is no number N that will fall outside the formula or fail to produce the same results.

    You seem to be saying two contradictory things here:
    1) It shouldn't matter whether you're Binding a Max Champ & a Max Level or two Max Champs, the total number of covers required should be the same.
    2) But the only "error" you can find in my math is that I am Binding a Max Champ & a Max Level, and my math doesn't match your math when you're Binding two Max Champs. You haven't actually found any problems with my math, you just assert that you're right and I'm wrong.

    So... allow me to point out the error you made in your math:

    1★: 16 characters x 13 covers = 208 covers

    [BIND: 8 level 94, 2★ characters]

    2★: 8 characters x 50 levels x 1 cover per level = 400 covers

    [BIND; 4 level 191, 3★ characters: 50 extra covers worth of credit (50 levels x 1 cover per level) towards 200 covers necessary to Max Champ 3★ = 1/4 of 100 levels = 25 levels of credit. 166 + 25 = 191]

    3★: 4 characters x 75 levels x 2 covers per level = 600 covers

    [BIND; 2 level 336+2/3, 4★ characters: 200 extra covers worth of credit (100 levels x 2 covers per level) towards 300 covers necessary to Max Champ 4★ = 2/3 of 100 levels = 66+2/3 levels of credit. 270 + 66+2/3 = 336+2/3]

    4★: 2 characters x 33+1/3 levels x 3 covers per level = 200 covers

    [BIND; 1 level 525, 5★ character: 300 extra covers worth of credit (100 levels x 3 covers per level) towards 400 covers necessary to Max Champ 5★ = 3/4 of 100 levels = 75 levels of credit. 450 + 75 = 525]

    5★: 1 character x 25 levels x 4 covers per level = 100 covers

    208 + 400 + 600 + 200 + 100 = 1,508 covers

    This agrees with my earlier math, and contradicts your answer of 1,908 covers

    You're correct up to up to level 3 - 1208 covers produces 4x 3* level 266. After this is where your math falls apart.

    [BIND; 2 level 336+2/3, 4★ characters: 200 extra covers worth of credit (100 levels x 2 covers per level) towards 300 covers necessary to Max Champ 4★ = 2/3 of 100 levels = 66+2/3 levels of credit. 270 + 66+2/3 = 336+2/3]

    4★: 2 characters x 33+1/3 levels x 3 covers per level = 200 covers

    It should be BIND; 4 level 266 3 star. 4 star characters 100 extra covers worth of credit (100 levels / 3 covers per level) = 33 1/3 levels. It's 270 + 33 1/3 =level 303 1/3, so each of those 4* requires 66 2/3 more levels x 3 covers per level = 200 more covers EACH = 400 covers.

    This is confirmed with the example Kolence gave from IceX

    IceIX gave the example on discord of two level 266 Iron Man copies merging into a level 303 (and some change in shards I guess?). It shows that the 100 levels you gave to the 2nd 3-star copy is only worth 33 levels for the 4-star.

    Then the next level you made the same mistake.

    [BIND; 1 level 525, 5★ character: 300 extra covers worth of credit (100 levels x 3 covers per level) towards 400 covers necessary to Max Champ 5★ = 3/4 of 100 levels = 75 levels of credit. 450 + 75 = 525]

    5★: 1 character x 25 levels x 4 covers per level = 100 covers

    It should be BIND: 2 level 370 4 star. 5 star characters 100 extra covers worth of credit (100 levels / 4 covers per level) = 25 levels. 450 + 25 = 475. 75 levels to 550 x 4 covers per level = 300 covers.

    1208 + 400 + 300 = 1908.

    This data is CONFIRMED by IceX in a photo someone else took from a discord chat.

    Look guys, I've read every post in all 18 pages of this thread. All my math and analysis are based on things the devs have directly said, not assumptions or guesswork. Now if the system rolls out and doesn't end up working the way they intended, that's on them, but the basis for all my work is the way the devs have said they intend the system to work.

  • xavierixeq
    xavierixeq Posts: 27 Just Dropped In

    All that mathing makes my head hurt... can we just go back to HULK SMASH!

  • meadowsweet
    meadowsweet Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker
    edited September 2023

    @ArchusMonk said:
    You're correct up to up to level 3 - 1208 covers produces 4x 3* level 266. After this is where your math falls apart.
    Then the next level you made the same mistake.
    This data is CONFIRMED by IceX in a photo someone else took from a discord chat.
    Look guys, I've read every post in all 18 pages of this thread. All my math and analysis are based on things the devs have directly said, not assumptions or guesswork. Now if the system rolls out and doesn't end up working the way they intended, that's on them, but the basis for all my work is the way the devs have said they intend the system to work.

    Okay, so the possibilities are:
    1) The devs are launching badly written code that does not properly credit you for the covers you have invested. It really does cost 400 more covers (27% more) to get a 1★ to level 550 using only Max Champ characters. Because... they're penalizing you for receiving champ rewards? Or they just screwed up on their math?
    2) @IceIX incorrectly understands the math involved and is mis-speaking on Discord; that is not the programming that will actually be rolled out
    3) There is an as-of-yet unidentified error in my original math... but that math error that also perfectly agrees with what I would consider "proper credit" for Binding two Max Champs?

  • meadowsweet
    meadowsweet Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker

    @IceIX said:
    Wait, so what happens if I have two 266 3-Stars and Bind them to make a 4-Star? I can make a 4-Star with a 166 and a 266, so do I just lose the extra covers from using a 266 instead?
    You’ll automatically get the “extra” covers in credit towards the next rarity. So in this case, you’d get the 4-Star Ascended character and 100 covers worth of credit towards those new levels, just like Saved Covers work when you Champion a character.

    I guess it depends if IceIX means "100 covers worth of credit" literally or figuratively. It would appear they are only giving you 100 covers' worth of credit for 3★ & 4★ Max Champs, even though they should be worth 200 & 300 covers respectively?:

    2★: 50 levels x 1 cover per level = 50 covers
    3★: 100 levels x 2 cover per level = 200 covers
    4★: 100 levels x 3 cover per level = 300 covers
    5★: 100 levels x 4 cover per level = 400 covers

    Or put another way, your level to level credits should be:
    2★: Max Champ-ing costs 25% compared to a 3★
    3★: Max Champ-ing costs 66.7% compared to a 4★
    4★: Max Champ-ing costs 75% compared to a 5★

    But if IceIX is correct and they're truly only giving 100 covers worth of credit:
    4★: 100 covers / 300 needed = 33.3% credit, should be 66.7%
    5★: 100 covers / 400 needed = 25% credit, should be 75%

    But the Devs must know about the change in exchange rates, right? They seem to be claiming they are correctly giving you 50 / 200 = 25% = 25 levels = Level 191 3★ characters. They aren't just giving you a flat 100 cover credit at that level, because that would be over-crediting you. But then at the next two levels they make the opposite mistake and under-credit you?

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler
    edited September 2023

    @meadowsweet said:

    @IceIX said:
    Wait, so what happens if I have two 266 3-Stars and Bind them to make a 4-Star? I can make a 4-Star with a 166 and a 266, so do I just lose the extra covers from using a 266 instead?
    You’ll automatically get the “extra” covers in credit towards the next rarity. So in this case, you’d get the 4-Star Ascended character and 100 covers worth of credit towards those new levels, just like Saved Covers work when you Champion a character.

    I guess it depends if IceIX means "100 covers worth of credit" literally or figuratively. It would appear they are only giving you 100 covers' worth of credit for 3★ & 4★ Max Champs, even though they should be worth 200 & 300 covers respectively?:

    2★: 50 levels x 1 cover per level = 50 covers
    3★: 100 levels x 2 cover per level = 200 covers
    4★: 100 levels x 3 cover per level = 300 covers
    5★: 100 levels x 4 cover per level = 400 covers

    Or put another way, your level to level credits should be:
    2★: Max Champ-ing costs 25% compared to a 3★
    3★: Max Champ-ing costs 66.7% compared to a 4★
    4★: Max Champ-ing costs 75% compared to a 5★

    But if IceIX is correct and they're truly only giving 100 covers worth of credit:
    4★: 100 covers / 300 needed = 33.3% credit, should be 66.7%
    5★: 100 covers / 400 needed = 25% credit, should be 75%

    But the Devs must know about the change in exchange rates, right? They seem to be claiming they are correctly giving you 50 / 200 = 25% = 25 levels = Level 191 3★ characters. They aren't just giving you a flat 100 cover credit at that level, because that would be over-crediting you. But then at the next two levels they make the opposite mistake and under-credit you?

    I'm not sure what you are referencing. Do you mean this table?

    Ascension Level Up Chart

    If this is the table you mean, then I think you're mis-interpreting it. It's not a table where you multiply "credits". It's a table where you multiply how many covers you need to level up. So at the 3 star level where the multiplier is 2, you need 200 1 star or 2 star covers to achieve 100 champ levels. When you level up 2 max champs, you have 50 covers of "credit" at the 3 star level. 50 covers / 2 covers per level = 25 levels. That is where the 25 levels comes from for going from 166 to 191.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "under-credit"? At the 4 star level where the multiplier is 3, you need 300 1 star or 2 star or 3 star covers to achieve 100 champ levels. When you level up 2 max champs, you have 100 covers of "credit" at the 4 star level. 100 covers / 3 covers per level = 33 1/3 levels. That is how you get from 270 to 303 1/3.

    I'm not sure what you are arguing in this section below.

    Or put another way, your level to level credits should be:
    2★: Max Champ-ing costs 25% compared to a 3★
    3★: Max Champ-ing costs 66.7% compared to a 4★
    4★: Max Champ-ing costs 75% compared to a 5★

    Where are you getting those numbers? Do you mean ISO8 costs? If so, I don't think that's what they are trying to balance.

    @meadowsweet said:

    >

    1) The devs are launching badly written code that does not properly credit you for the covers you have invested. It really does cost 400 more covers (27% more) to get a 1★ to level 550 using only Max Champ characters. Because... they're penalizing you for receiving champ rewards? Or they just screwed up on their math?
    2) @IceIX incorrectly understands the math involved and is mis-speaking on Discord; that is not the programming that will actually be rolled out
    3) There is an as-of-yet unidentified error in my original math... but that math error that also perfectly agrees with what I would consider "proper credit" for Binding two Max Champs?

    1. There is no penalty for using max champ characters vs 1 max champ and 1 max level. I have repeatedly demonstrated that at every single star level. People are probably sick of seeing my math.
    2. This is possible.
    3. I identified the error in your original math. You only did 4 bindings instead of 8 at the 1 star level.

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